|
On February 21 2016 03:52 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +I mean I dunno if the punishment fits the crime, but like, since Freak's a pretty tough guy who can take it, I'm not gonna lose my shit over it. It's not like this is some silly faux pas that any of us could commit at any time. From what I understand he went out of his way to be a total dick, like actually took the trouble to track s1mple down in Mumble just so he could be a dick to him. It seems like maybe there's more reason to find that distasteful than just because it's "offensive" (whatever that means). He went out of his way to be a total dick to a guy who's fully capable of being a dick himself. And has been, to Freak's own teammates. It wasn't completely in a vacuum. It's a minor offense. People need to stop being offended on someone else's behalf, especially over minor things. Anyway I'm done posting about this, can't reason with the mob mentality and the puritans.
So I'm either with you or I'm with the conformists? All I'm saying is, I'm not sure I see why it's a question of "being offended on someone else's behalf." Like, I saw what s1mple said a while back, I don't feel all that bad for him, but it seems like there are reasons to think what Freak did just isn't good as a rule. Or maybe we should be totally fine with what Freak did, but I don't know that dismissing the concerns because ostensibly everyone is "being offended on someone else's behalf" is fair.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Freak will be at the seminar
guy will ask him: why you here?
"I'm just here so I won't get fined"
make it happen.
|
On February 21 2016 05:41 RuiBarbO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 03:52 Djzapz wrote:I mean I dunno if the punishment fits the crime, but like, since Freak's a pretty tough guy who can take it, I'm not gonna lose my shit over it. It's not like this is some silly faux pas that any of us could commit at any time. From what I understand he went out of his way to be a total dick, like actually took the trouble to track s1mple down in Mumble just so he could be a dick to him. It seems like maybe there's more reason to find that distasteful than just because it's "offensive" (whatever that means). He went out of his way to be a total dick to a guy who's fully capable of being a dick himself. And has been, to Freak's own teammates. It wasn't completely in a vacuum. It's a minor offense. People need to stop being offended on someone else's behalf, especially over minor things. Anyway I'm done posting about this, can't reason with the mob mentality and the puritans. So I'm either with you or I'm with the conformists? All I'm saying is, I'm not sure I see why it's a question of "being offended on someone else's behalf." Like, I saw what s1mple said a while back, I don't feel all that bad for him, but it seems like there are reasons to think what Freak did just isn't good as a rule. Or maybe we should be totally fine with what Freak did, but I don't know that dismissing the concerns because ostensibly everyone is "being offended on someone else's behalf" is fair.
Summary/TLDR at bottom.
I said I was going to quit but since you're talking to me directly, I'll try to express myself again more clearly and with fewer frills.
I don't think I'm dismissive of anything, it's hard to discuss these things on the internet because nuance doesn't translate well on the internet where people think Freakazoid is either a nazi or Mother Teresa reincarnated. What Freakazoid did is not desirable, but I maintain that losing 1 month's salary under the circumstances is excessive. I consider that a large part of the reason why the punishment was so harsh is because of the old internet pitchforks, where reddits and other forms of scum rally against a common enemy. The community more or less randomly decided to make a big deal out of nothing.
I think that it's hard to defend the position that what Freakazoid did is really bad. At worst, it's a shitty thing to do, and the circumstances attenuate it. Freakazoid can certainly take it, so as an isolated incident I would be fine saying C9 handled this poorly but now we can move on. My real concern stems from the fact that this IMO sets a bad precedent. If this incident which I consider to be mild is bad enough to be worth a month's salary and a bullshit seminar that won't be taken seriously, I consider that the CSGO scene has gone just as corporate as any other bullshit sport.
This is why I previously said this is all fake. It really is. Do people not see this? This pay dock is not just punishment. First and foremost, the pay dock is a PR move. The seminar on bullying is an even more egregious PR move. Now I don't deny that pay docks can't be dissuasive and prevent players from talking, but C9 flat out shoved it in a press release thing. It's a show they're putting on to appease the angry mob. Bread and games style. I think the distinction is important because with this type of fuckery, we'll lose what made CSGO real where every game this size has historically been more informal, and we'll get the shadowy practices and the politically correct front which come with becoming too corporate.
I thought CSGO had a good opportunity to become corporate without falling victim to all those rigorous norms which prevent people from expressing themselves in most uncreative and boring areas of life. Why couldn't CSGO grow more informal, more organic? I think it would have been interesting to have some open shittalking within reason. Perhaps not like this, but by docking 1 month's pay for an offense that I consider to be minor, many players will just censor themselves, and we'll end up with a bland scene full of nerds who don't talk very much by fear of offending the mighty overseer Reddit.
Look at what SC2 did. Oooh don't say that, Greg Fields said something bad oooh Naniwa fuck those guys they're BM. Some talented guy ended up being kicked out of the scene entirely because some guy fished out some racist slur he used in a game before he was a personality. Had to be sure to wear a suit during casts, and not express negative opinions. In fact don't even touch anything that could be controversial. Perhaps the humorous thing is that prior to its decline, SC2 established itself as the universal sanitized competitive scene. As a result of this, we ended up with a sea of faceless talent, boring stories where rivalries were just some player who lost against another player twice and said something slightly cocky during the pre-game interview.
I think that ultimately, trying to adhere to the norms that were adopted in sports which have entire departments trying to manage their image is the wrong way to go about things.
To summarize/TLDR: If the CSGO community accepts that these types of bullshit controversies qualify as drama, then we set a very low standard to what constitutes drama and by extension we get more drama. And by managing bullshit controversies as if they were real, then we give credence to the idea that we should micromanage and regulate player interactions and small interpersonal conflicts like it's kindergarten. The result of this is the following: fans view small things as drama and they complain and even contact sponsors in an incredible feat of backseat moderating, orgs react to the complaints and impose excessive sanctions, and players become afraid to express themselves in manners which may be reasonable but there's no way to predict Reddit's wrath. If, god forbid, this dynamic took root in CSGO, we'd have to expect a lot of artificial interactions, a lot of bullshit.
The solution, and it may be too late for that, would be to have some courage, STAND YOUR GROUND, show that the community has the level of maturity that's necessary to withstand some shittalk. If sponsors knew that CSGO fans are not ticklish, they wouldn't care about this. But we're building a good case for them to get nervous at the slightest disturbance. We become a fickle bunch. We construct an image for ourselves that big sponsors are forced to interpret as people who REQUIRE a sanitized, strictly controlled environment. I don't think we want our sponsors to think of us as a community of people who close our wallets the second we're a bit offended. That's not good. I think that what people need to understand ultimately is that sponsors don't react to drama, they react to people's reaction regarding drama. We should laugh when some people try to stir outrage over non-issues or minor issues. We shouldn't blow things out of proportions. We should be reasonable and the sponsors will be reasonable too.
As a little conclusion for my writeup which seems ridiculous now that I look at it, I want to say some point my buddy just raised and I thought it was interesting. In Battlestar Galactica at some point a character says something to the effect that sports are basically a way for human beings to feel strongly about something that really doesn't matter. It's raw emotion. I think there's real beauty in that, something that should be preserved. Spurious attempts to prevent offensive stuff is counter productive, and takes away from this whole thing we've got.
I failed to keep this short, sorry
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
I think your thing would make more sense if he bmed ingame, he specifically joined a TS channel to bully him, he was in no way in the match at all. I think there is a difference there.
people bm ingame all the time and don't get punished for that, Freakazoid made a video against bullies and then proceeds to bully Simple while they are not even playing the game. C9 probably wants to keep up the good guy Freakazoid image, hence they punished him harshly. Provided that he even made a video about it, he probably knows that bullying is not very nice and the consequences of what it can have esp to an 18year old kid who just moved to the US to pursue his dream. He didn't seem to be doing it out of pure emotion or when he gets pumped (e.g Nothing yelling sit the fuck down to JW or something is gr8). Things get heated during games sure, good stuff
but it wasn't inside the game, it wasn't even as though they were at a competition or a press event or what have you, its a random fucking FPL game that he just joined specifically to bully Simple(and Freakazoid thought nobody was streaming it so he could get away with that most likely).
CSGO primairely takes place on the internet where controversies and social media are rampant, to think that these things will not cause a mess is a little bit naieve, seeing as the game primary audience uses social media/etc. Despite all that though, they still seem to hire Richard Lewis and Thoorin so insofar as what the community allows in CSGO i'd say they still allow a little bit more then other scenes.
|
I don't deny that it's shitty, incredibly hypocritical and even pathetic to an extent. I don't think it was that bad, or that s1mple would qualify it as bullying. I think the rhetoric is a bit cheesy, too... oh he's 18 and only just now moved to America, let's save him from big dangerous Americans... are you kidding? He's never felt safer in his life! Do you think Freakazoid's cheesy banter even put a dent in the kid? That notion probably is more insulting to him than the sum of what Freak said in that convo.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
How do you know how he feels about it? Considering the factors that are in play i'd say he feels pretty bad
He is 18 moved all the way to America to pursue his dreams and passion(and subsequently left behind the life that he knows), he then gets welcomed in America by a player from the most reputable organization NA has to offer who specifically bullies him, moreover, nobody seems to defend him either in the same environment that he will play for the foreseeable future. You think thats cheesy? I think those factors are definitely relevant, migrating at the age of 18 is no easy decision esp given the volatility of the decision and the risks he undertakes in doing so. NA is doing a good job so far of being a hostile environment for him.
Like, I am pretty sure that puts a dent in you unless he has some titanium level thick skin for an 18 year old.
I don't even know what you mean by felt safer in his life, I highly doubt that he thinks they will beat him up at the next event like its some kind of fucking playground and I am also not sure how that is relevant.
I don't know why you think anything what Freak says qualifies as "cheesy banter", esp the tone and the specifically targeting him of it for no reason (Wtf has S1mple done to Freak?). For the record I think the punishment is probably a bit too harsh but to write it off as "cheesy banter" is ludicrous.
|
On February 21 2016 10:55 Kipsate wrote:
How do you know how he feels about it? Considering the factors that are in play i'd say he feels pretty bad
He is 18 moved all the way to America to pursue his dreams and passion(and subsequently left behind the life that he knows), he then gets welcomed in America by a player from the most reputable organization NA has to offer who specifically bullies him, moreover, nobody seems to defend him either in the same environment that he will play for the foreseeable future. You think thats cheesy? I think those factors are definitely relevant, migrating at the age of 18 is no easy decision.
Like, I am pretty sure that puts a dent in you unless he has some titanium level thick skin for an 18 year old.
Do you know who s1mple is? Are you not at all aware? If this was some quiet Korean SC2 starcraft player I might just be with you, but this is s1mple. He's a 18 year old, yeah, but he comes from a country where 18 year olds are not like urban hipsters from downtown NYC with doctor dad and lawyer mom.
S1mple is a guy who has a long history of being a dick to others, this is a guy who initiated these kinds of things multiple times. It's not about having titanium thick skin, it's about being used to it. Trying to paint him as this young innocent refugee kid with overalls "papa papa why are these meatheads saying rude things about me". No. He was telling people they're shit when he was 15. S1mple told Germans "sieg heil motherfuckers" in his twitch chat. He doesn't need a safe space, he eats that shit up for breakfast.
I don't know why you think anything what Freak says qualifies as "cheesy banter", esp the tone and the specifically targeting him of it for no reason. For the record I think the punishment is probably a bit too harsh but to write it off as "cheesy banter" is ludicrous.
Freakazoid telling s1mple his aim is bad is some form of comedy in itself. I listened to it and s1mple just deflects all of it.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different.
I don't know why you think anything what Freak says qualifies as "cheesy banter", esp the tone and the specifically targeting him of it for no reason. For the record I think the punishment is probably a bit too harsh but to write it off as "cheesy banter" is ludicrous.
Freakazoid telling s1mple his aim is bad is some form of comedy in itself. I listened to it and s1mple just deflects all of it.[/quote]
Right, he also tells him has no friends, makes fun of his English(which he is quite sensitive about) and asks him whether he has "balls" whatever that means.
Real "banter"
|
On February 21 2016 11:04 Kipsate wrote:
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different.
Harassed? What do you think that word means? I can't harass people on the internet because they can block me (unless I try really hard but I don't think it happened here... it was a few minutes of garbage that s1mple could've opted out of right-clicking some dudes on ventrilo or whatever). Also s1mple commented and probably comments regularly on the ineptitude of the people he plays against.
|
On February 21 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 11:04 Kipsate wrote:
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different. Harassed? What do you think that word means? I can't harass people on the internet because they can block me. Also s1mple commented and probably comments regularly on the ineptitude of the people he plays against.
You what now?
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Wait, do you mean that harassement doesn't exist on the internet?
|
On February 21 2016 11:09 Nixer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2016 11:04 Kipsate wrote:
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different. Harassed? What do you think that word means? I can't harass people on the internet because they can block me. Also s1mple commented and probably comments regularly on the ineptitude of the people he plays against. You what now?
Oh God I knew that was going to happen so I added to it. Harassment is not to just inconvenience someone mildly for 6 minutes, it needs to be sustained. If I want to harass someone online I CAN, you're right. Cyber-bullying and all that. If you think Freakazoid harassed s1mple, you don't know what that word means. Freak joined a channel, talked shit, s1mple could've left the channel or blocked Freak and chose not to. It would've been harassment if Freak insisted and followed s1mple and fiddled to maintain contact with him. That's harassment. As it is, s1mple was comfortable enough to stay, listen and respond.
On February 21 2016 11:10 Kipsate wrote:
Wait, do you mean that harassement doesn't exist on the internet?
Dear god you people.
Fine, let's use the term "harassment" to mean "basically anything uncomfortable".
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
So its S1mple's own fault and as such that makes what Freakazoid did oke?
Once again, he didn't do it ingame or whatever, he did it specifically targeted at him.
|
On February 21 2016 11:14 Kipsate wrote:
So its S1mple's own fault and as such that makes what Freakazoid did oke?
Fault? I don't think he's at fault. I don't think he thinks he's a victim. If you think there's been a "fault", you're looking at this wrong.
If someone says really bad shit at me and I can leave but I choose not too (which happens a lot), I don't think it's my fault. It was just my choice to sit there and take it. It's not harassment because I can leave.
Let's say you're walking down the street in Amsterdam and I tell you I think you're kind of a shit and I don't like you, if you tell the police that they presumably won't give a shit. But if I followed you and kept telling you that, then it would be harassment.
Once again, he didn't do it ingame or whatever, he did it specifically targeted at him.
Which is great. Someone was a dick, but no one was really harmed (unless you really get your rocks off by misunderstanding s1mple's character). We have a cool rivalry from two high level NA CS teams. I think it's cool. It's like how you get these really BM MMA champs like Ronda Rousey or whoever else spouting shit through the media.
|
On February 21 2016 11:12 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 11:09 Nixer wrote:On February 21 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2016 11:04 Kipsate wrote:
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different. Harassed? What do you think that word means? I can't harass people on the internet because they can block me. Also s1mple commented and probably comments regularly on the ineptitude of the people he plays against. You what now? Oh God I knew that was going to happen so I added to it. Harassment is not to just inconvenience someone mildly for 6 minutes, it needs to be sustained. If I want to harass someone online I CAN, you're right. Cyber-bullying and all that. If you think Freakazoid harassed s1mple, you don't know what that word means. Freak joined a channel, talked shit, s1mple could've left the channel or blocked Freak and chose not to. It would've been harassment if Freak insisted and followed s1mple and fiddled to maintain contact with him. That's harassment. As it is, s1mple was comfortable enough to stay, listen and respond. Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 11:10 Kipsate wrote:
Wait, do you mean that harassement doesn't exist on the internet? Dear god you people. Fine, let's use the term "harassment" to mean "basically anything uncomfortable".
If you thought better to specify what you meant you should also realize why somebody responded to it before you did.
You don't need to go on the defensive about it when I specifically reacted to your original statement.
|
On February 21 2016 11:18 Nixer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 11:12 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2016 11:09 Nixer wrote:On February 21 2016 11:07 Djzapz wrote:On February 21 2016 11:04 Kipsate wrote:
Do you not see the difference between being harassed by random internet strangers and Freakazoid(and the way he went about it)??
Like, getting insulted and insulting other people in Twitch chat is vastly different. Harassed? What do you think that word means? I can't harass people on the internet because they can block me. Also s1mple commented and probably comments regularly on the ineptitude of the people he plays against. You what now? Oh God I knew that was going to happen so I added to it. Harassment is not to just inconvenience someone mildly for 6 minutes, it needs to be sustained. If I want to harass someone online I CAN, you're right. Cyber-bullying and all that. If you think Freakazoid harassed s1mple, you don't know what that word means. Freak joined a channel, talked shit, s1mple could've left the channel or blocked Freak and chose not to. It would've been harassment if Freak insisted and followed s1mple and fiddled to maintain contact with him. That's harassment. As it is, s1mple was comfortable enough to stay, listen and respond. On February 21 2016 11:10 Kipsate wrote:
Wait, do you mean that harassement doesn't exist on the internet? Dear god you people. Fine, let's use the term "harassment" to mean "basically anything uncomfortable". If you thought better to specify what you meant you should also realize why somebody responded to it before you did. You don't need to go on the defensive about it when I specifically reacted to your original statement.
Fair enough.
|
On February 20 2016 11:56 Djzapz wrote:The people who think this punishment is fair are politically correct shills. It's really sad to see that and I'm disappointed in you guys. Comparing to sports like they're an example to follow in this respect... Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 10:31 Sableyeah wrote:
1 month salary is NOTHING, you do realize a small PR mistake could cost an organisation (any) A LOT. This punishment is a fucking joke. But it will suffice. Are you out of your mind? Not only is a month's salary a lot for the person who loses it, "the punishment is a fucking joke" shows how disconnected from reality you are, because either you think that his transgression is so huge that it's worth more than the thousands of dollars he lost, or you're so into drama and political correctness that you blow these things out of proportion. But why am I not surprised, leave it to someone with solid social safety nets to act like a month's income is trivial.
It's funny you say this, I am almost always broke for money and I work for my every penny every week.
But as a public figure who tries to promote decency towards players, acting as if he is anti-bullying and then acting the way he did. The hypocricy is too much for an organization to not feel insecure, they had to do something and his salary was an easy target so to say, you really think he is barely scaping by? With all that streaming, his salary isn't even his main source of income. C9 might be laughing their ass off as the whole salary still managed to be 'spent' on charity instead of a direct fine. Woooow a seminar, what a big deal.
And yes, political correctness is somewhat of a hard subject for most but for me it feels ethical. It is his responsibility to be ethical towards his audience and also for what his streaming character portrays him to be.
On February 21 2016 10:46 Djzapz wrote:
I don't deny that it's shitty, incredibly hypocritical and even pathetic to an extent. I don't think it was that bad, or that s1mple would qualify it as bullying. I think the rhetoric is a bit cheesy, too... oh he's 18 and only just now moved to America, let's save him from big dangerous Americans... are you kidding? He's never felt safer in his life! Do you think Freakazoid's cheesy banter even put a dent in the kid? That notion probably is more insulting to him than the sum of what Freak said in that convo.
So the fact that this east european kid can take the bully, everyone is free to have their fun with him? Is that what you are trying to imply? Bro. #news1mple. He was pretty calm considering the intent of Freak. Could be his ignorance but it felt like s1mple really didn't want any trouble while Freak was heavily heavily baiting.
|
Well I have nothing to add. I've addressed these points in every way I know at this point, I've already repeated myself multiple times, we'll have to agree to disagree. As for whether s1mple's character means that people should get to "bully" him, I don't think that's what I said and I think you're mischaracterizing my arguments pretty badly. I'm just saying we don't need to defend him as if he's a defenseless child, he is not. S1mple's character as a proficient shittalker is at the very least an attenuating factor in this ordeal. What Freakazoid did is shitty and bad, and I've said it myself, it's hypocritical. But we'll have to disagree about whether the punishment was appropriate.
I think I did a decent job of explaining why I believe that lenience is beneficial, especially for these small transgressions, for the CSGO community in the long run.
|
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
we got bigger problems in NA than arguing over semantics of trash talking.
|
Canada4481 Posts
A month's pay is fair/borderline lenient. In the real world people get fired over this shit. The seminar was kind of excessive but amusing.
When you have a job, especially one as marketing heavy like csgo (you're essentially a walking advertisement). You are the face of your company and what you represent. If you represent your company in a bad light. It will put your company in a bad light and hurt their brand. This isn't about whether or not s1mple could take it. It's all about how freakazoid went about it. He pretended to be someone else, and interrupted a game s1mple was in to shit talk him personally. Went after his appearance, whether or not he had friends all unprovoked. Tbh if it wasn't even for Reddit I don't think s1mple would've known who it was.
Yes Reddit made it a slightly bigger deal than it was, but if it was in game shit talking, that's whatever and no one would care. But the main issues were that it was unprovoked, not even in the game, pretending to be someone else, and the fact that freakazoid has made videos against bullying that this became as big a deal.
Other similar situations, idra was fired from EG for shit talking his fans. Despite being advertised as the bad boy of Starcraft, he crossed a line that really shouldn't have been crossed and was fired for it.
In real life, a fan was trying to troll a reporter, and was caught/identified by those who saw the report. He was subsequently also fired from his company for it.
So a month's pay isn't really all that much in the grand scheme of things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
