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I can't wait for the opening to be over with so people can actually think about their moves instead of spamming the word "standard" as an argument. I don't know if you guys are using wikipedia or something, but 5. d4 is far more popular among top grandmasters from the database of games I am skimming through...
Alexei Shirov, 2751 ELO vs. Peter Leko, 2725 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6
Vassily Smyslov (former world champion) vs. Gedeon Barcza, 5. d4 Bb6
Boris Spassky (former world champion) vs. Leonid Stein, 5. d4 Bb6
Mikhail Tal (former world champion) vs. Dirk Van Geet, 5. d4 Bb6
Nigel Short 2650 ELO vs. Boris Gulko 2610 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6
There is a reason in game after game in my database, white usually chooses to play d4 and black usually responds with a simple bishop retreat: it's because trading the e-pawn does NOT lead to positional weaknesses for white. It usually leads to rapid development and strong initiative for a potential attack.
If you want to choose and argue for 5. O-O, go ahead, but saying "standard line, standard line" over and over is nonsense. If 5. d4 is good enough for top grandmasters, it is certainly good enough for us.
On August 23 2011 15:59 Sandwhale wrote:5. O-O+ Show Spoiler +Standard line is standard. On August 23 2011 15:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8Iddy.png) This is actually the type of position that feels like a strength because of the increased space we gain in the center, but is actually a weakness. We don't want to have an overextended center which will be undermined by the [d6] move that you outline. Committing our pawns to a d4-e5 formation means that our pawn center will have to be traded off very soon, resulting in a game where we have minimal advantages.
+ Show Spoiler +This is actually the type of position where the extended pawn looks like a weakness, but actually it isn't.
Look at all of the factors. White has an advantage in space, central control, better development (his pieces are on their ideal squares), and his king is safely castled. Now look at black. His position is cramped, his king is still in the center, he wasted a tempo retreating the bishop, his dark-bishop is temporarily hemmed in by his own pawn, his c6 knight is currently pinned and is practically useless... his only active piece, the knight on d5, is currently being attacked and must be defended immediately.
The point is white has a strong initiative, and can decide when and how to resolve the central tension. Even if we end up with an isolated queen pawn is not much of a weakness, in fact in many cases it can result in a very strong game for white.
Kinda funny that the move that is the favorite among world champions and challengers to world champions is not considered "standard," and is about to lose the vote. lol 
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On August 24 2011 06:17 qrs wrote:People are suggesting that after 5. d4 we might never be able to + Show Spoiler +but I haven't seen a single line where that is the case. Does anyone have an actual line showing this, rather than speculation off the fact that Black can play one or two forcing moves? I'd bet money that after 5. d4, White can (see above spoiler) with impunity no matter what Black does. Prove me wrong, and I'll be grateful. I doubt you can, though. Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:21 NoobieOne wrote:5. 0-0, + Show Spoiler +if he tries to take our pawn with the knight then we can just trap with Rook to e1, no need to trap twice. No we can't. + Show Spoiler +6...Bxf1+ King moves 7. BxR That's just a minor point, though; there are other things we could do in that position, as people have discussed already.
+ Show Spoiler +Yea, Re1 is not the correct response if Black takes our e pawn, we need to play d4. But I still think 0-0 is the best move for us right now.
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On August 24 2011 06:27 jdseemoreglass wrote:I can't wait for the opening to be over with so people can actually think about their moves instead of spamming the word "standard" as an argument. I don't know if you guys are using wikipedia or something, but 5. d4 is far more popular among top grandmasters from the database of games I am skimming through... Alexei Shirov, 2751 ELO vs. Peter Leko, 2725 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6Vassily Smyslov (former world champion) vs. Gedeon Barcza, 5. d4 Bb6Boris Spassky (former world champion) vs. Leonid Stein, 5. d4 Bb6Mikhail Tal (former world champion) vs. Dirk Van Geet, 5. d4 Bb6Nigel Short 2650 ELO vs. Boris Gulko 2610 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6There is a reason in game after game in my database, white usually chooses to play d4 and black usually responds with a simple bishop retreat: it's because trading the e-pawn does NOT lead to positional weaknesses for white. It usually leads to rapid development and strong initiative for a potential attack. If you want to choose and argue for 5. O-O, go ahead, but saying "standard line, standard line" over and over is nonsense. If 5. d4 is good enough for top grandmasters, it is certainly good enough for us. Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 15:59 Sandwhale wrote:5. O-O+ Show Spoiler +Standard line is standard. On August 23 2011 15:37 jdseemoreglass wrote: This is actually the type of position that feels like a strength because of the increased space we gain in the center, but is actually a weakness. We don't want to have an overextended center which will be undermined by the [d6] move that you outline. Committing our pawns to a d4-e5 formation means that our pawn center will have to be traded off very soon, resulting in a game where we have minimal advantages. + Show Spoiler +This is actually the type of position where the extended pawn looks like a weakness, but actually it isn't.
Look at all of the factors. White has an advantage in space, central control, better development (his pieces are on their ideal squares), and his king is safely castled. Now look at black. His position is cramped, his king is still in the center, he wasted a tempo retreating the bishop, his dark-bishop is temporarily hemmed in by his own pawn, his c6 knight is currently pinned and is practically useless... his only active piece, the knight on d5, is currently being attacked and must be defended immediately.
The point is white has a strong initiative, and can decide when and how to resolve the central tension. Even if we end up with an isolated queen pawn is not much of a weakness, in fact in many cases it can result in a very strong game for white. Kinda funny that the move that is the favorite among world champions and challengers to world champions is not considered "standard," and is about to lose the vote. lol
+ Show Spoiler +
Thank god, finally a valid argument to the point I was trying to make that people post their move with zero explanation or just "standard line". Someone even thought I was being hostile, can't blame him I guess, it looked that way upon re-reading it. d4 is the correct play here, I'm sure we could find some high level games using 0-0 here but I think d4 just gives us the edge with pressure, we should keep the momentum in our favor. He is NOT going to lose his bishop here, he will do exactly what all those people did, retreat his bishop, then our center is formed and we can castle.
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17058 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:59 ParanoiaHoT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:27 jdseemoreglass wrote:I can't wait for the opening to be over with so people can actually think about their moves instead of spamming the word "standard" as an argument. I don't know if you guys are using wikipedia or something, but 5. d4 is far more popular among top grandmasters from the database of games I am skimming through... Alexei Shirov, 2751 ELO vs. Peter Leko, 2725 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6Vassily Smyslov (former world champion) vs. Gedeon Barcza, 5. d4 Bb6Boris Spassky (former world champion) vs. Leonid Stein, 5. d4 Bb6Mikhail Tal (former world champion) vs. Dirk Van Geet, 5. d4 Bb6Nigel Short 2650 ELO vs. Boris Gulko 2610 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6There is a reason in game after game in my database, white usually chooses to play d4 and black usually responds with a simple bishop retreat: it's because trading the e-pawn does NOT lead to positional weaknesses for white. It usually leads to rapid development and strong initiative for a potential attack. If you want to choose and argue for 5. O-O, go ahead, but saying "standard line, standard line" over and over is nonsense. If 5. d4 is good enough for top grandmasters, it is certainly good enough for us. On August 23 2011 15:59 Sandwhale wrote:5. O-O+ Show Spoiler +Standard line is standard. On August 23 2011 15:37 jdseemoreglass wrote: This is actually the type of position that feels like a strength because of the increased space we gain in the center, but is actually a weakness. We don't want to have an overextended center which will be undermined by the [d6] move that you outline. Committing our pawns to a d4-e5 formation means that our pawn center will have to be traded off very soon, resulting in a game where we have minimal advantages. + Show Spoiler +This is actually the type of position where the extended pawn looks like a weakness, but actually it isn't.
Look at all of the factors. White has an advantage in space, central control, better development (his pieces are on their ideal squares), and his king is safely castled. Now look at black. His position is cramped, his king is still in the center, he wasted a tempo retreating the bishop, his dark-bishop is temporarily hemmed in by his own pawn, his c6 knight is currently pinned and is practically useless... his only active piece, the knight on d5, is currently being attacked and must be defended immediately.
The point is white has a strong initiative, and can decide when and how to resolve the central tension. Even if we end up with an isolated queen pawn is not much of a weakness, in fact in many cases it can result in a very strong game for white. Kinda funny that the move that is the favorite among world champions and challengers to world champions is not considered "standard," and is about to lose the vote. lol + Show Spoiler +
Thank god, finally a valid argument to the point I was trying to make that people post their move with zero explanation or just "standard line". Someone even thought I was being hostile, can't blame him I guess, it looked that way upon re-reading it. d4 is the correct play here, I'm sure we could find some high level games using 0-0 here but I think d4 just gives us the edge with pressure, we should keep the momentum in our favor. He is NOT going to lose his bishop here, he will do exactly what all those people did, retreat his bishop, then our center is formed and we can castle.
5. d4
+ Show Spoiler +But it is the main line to play 5.0-0. It's the "by the book" line of the Ruy Lopez, and for those who are participating but are amateurs or not very advanced, it's what chess opening books describe as the main line. Simply google "Ruy Lopez main line" and you get 5. 0-0.
The problem is: we're not following the main line of the Ruy Lopez to begin with. Which actually makes 5. d4 a more interesting consideration. What I mean to say is, if the game had gone 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6, then we should just pretty much unquestioningly castle, but since it hasn't, we should look more into 5. d4.
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On August 24 2011 07:10 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:59 ParanoiaHoT wrote:On August 24 2011 06:27 jdseemoreglass wrote:I can't wait for the opening to be over with so people can actually think about their moves instead of spamming the word "standard" as an argument. I don't know if you guys are using wikipedia or something, but 5. d4 is far more popular among top grandmasters from the database of games I am skimming through... Alexei Shirov, 2751 ELO vs. Peter Leko, 2725 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6Vassily Smyslov (former world champion) vs. Gedeon Barcza, 5. d4 Bb6Boris Spassky (former world champion) vs. Leonid Stein, 5. d4 Bb6Mikhail Tal (former world champion) vs. Dirk Van Geet, 5. d4 Bb6Nigel Short 2650 ELO vs. Boris Gulko 2610 ELO, 5. d4 Bb6There is a reason in game after game in my database, white usually chooses to play d4 and black usually responds with a simple bishop retreat: it's because trading the e-pawn does NOT lead to positional weaknesses for white. It usually leads to rapid development and strong initiative for a potential attack. If you want to choose and argue for 5. O-O, go ahead, but saying "standard line, standard line" over and over is nonsense. If 5. d4 is good enough for top grandmasters, it is certainly good enough for us. Ah, as I posted you added to your post and voted d4. I agree with your reasoning behind it as well, as he pointed it.. It's just more interesting, we are not trying to play the ruy lopez line for line I wouldn't assume, that would give him an advantage. On August 23 2011 15:59 Sandwhale wrote:5. O-O+ Show Spoiler +Standard line is standard. On August 23 2011 15:37 jdseemoreglass wrote: This is actually the type of position that feels like a strength because of the increased space we gain in the center, but is actually a weakness. We don't want to have an overextended center which will be undermined by the [d6] move that you outline. Committing our pawns to a d4-e5 formation means that our pawn center will have to be traded off very soon, resulting in a game where we have minimal advantages. + Show Spoiler +This is actually the type of position where the extended pawn looks like a weakness, but actually it isn't.
Look at all of the factors. White has an advantage in space, central control, better development (his pieces are on their ideal squares), and his king is safely castled. Now look at black. His position is cramped, his king is still in the center, he wasted a tempo retreating the bishop, his dark-bishop is temporarily hemmed in by his own pawn, his c6 knight is currently pinned and is practically useless... his only active piece, the knight on d5, is currently being attacked and must be defended immediately.
The point is white has a strong initiative, and can decide when and how to resolve the central tension. Even if we end up with an isolated queen pawn is not much of a weakness, in fact in many cases it can result in a very strong game for white. Kinda funny that the move that is the favorite among world champions and challengers to world champions is not considered "standard," and is about to lose the vote. lol + Show Spoiler +
Thank god, finally a valid argument to the point I was trying to make that people post their move with zero explanation or just "standard line". Someone even thought I was being hostile, can't blame him I guess, it looked that way upon re-reading it. d4 is the correct play here, I'm sure we could find some high level games using 0-0 here but I think d4 just gives us the edge with pressure, we should keep the momentum in our favor. He is NOT going to lose his bishop here, he will do exactly what all those people did, retreat his bishop, then our center is formed and we can castle.
+ Show Spoiler +But it is the main line to play 5.0-0. It's the "by the book" line of the Ruy Lopez, and for those who are participating but are amateurs or not very advanced, it's what chess opening books describe as the main line. Simply google "Ruy Lopez main line" and you get 5. 0-0.
EDIT: Although, yes, I do understand that we're not following the main line of the Ruy Lopez. Which actually makes 5. d4 a more interesting consideration.
+ Show Spoiler +
Did you read idseemoreglass's post? He explained clearly from a top level why it was chosen. I'm not arguing it's the line of Ruy Lopez, but who said we're playing that line play for play?
Ah, as I posted this you added to your post and voted d4. I agree with your reasoning, like I just said, we aren't playing the ruy lopez line for line, or shouldn't be. That could easily give him the advantage eventually. Sorry, I misunderstood you, glad we're getting people on the same page as far as d4 goes, not that I'm CRYING against 0-0, I just wouldn't prefer it right now.
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17058 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +No, I agree with you. I'm saying that the calls to castle are fallacious because they assume we're following the main line of the Ruy Lopez, which we obviously are not. 5. 0-0 is the standard response of a line we're not even following, so claims that it's the standard response don't make sense and that line of reasoning is an extremely poor rationale for the choice.
EDIT: It's akin to saying "The main line to the open Sicilian involves 5. Nc3. Therefore we should now play 5. Nc3." We're not playing the open Sicilian. We're also not playing main line Ruy Lopez. Seriously guys, 5. d4. Please allow me to convince you :O
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Oh guys, sometimes I want to reply to some of these posts so bad it's not even funny.
And I don't even get to read the juicy bits.
It will take a whole marathon again, just to get over this one game once it's over.
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+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, now you got me thinking more. Interesting how many top GMs favor the 5. d4 lines, and now I should probably do more research.
And Empyrean, you're right that we're not following the main line Ruy Lopez. But, 4...Nf6 is considered the main line of the Classical Defence., in which white's usual response (assuming we're following the main line of the Classical) is to castle. Note: I'm not saying that following this line is the correct way to play because it is not. I'm just giving a reason as to why I chose this move because I'm the type of player that likes to play a more safe, positional game (d4 player at heart XD).
This is the line I'm looking at as my reasoning for 5. 0-0:
4.c3 Nf6
5.0-0 0-0
6.d4 Bb6
7.Re1 d6
8.Bg5
But I'll reconsider the position after I take my final this week x_x.
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17058 Posts
On August 24 2011 07:54 wuBu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, now you got me thinking more. Interesting how many top GMs favor the 5. d4 lines, and now I should probably do more research.
And Empyrean, you're right that we're not following the main line Ruy Lopez. But, 4...Nf6 is considered the main line of the Classical Defence., in which white's usual response (assuming we're following the main line of the Classical) is to castle. Note: I'm not saying that following this line is the correct way to play because it is not. I'm just giving a reason as to why I chose this move because I'm the type of player that likes to play a more safe, positional game (d4 player at heart XD).
This is the line I'm looking at as my reasoning for 5. 0-0:
4.c3 Nf6
5.0-0 0-0
6.d4 Bb6
7.Re1 d6
8.Bg5
But I'll reconsider the position after I take my final this week x_x.
+ Show Spoiler +This assumes that black castles right after we do. What if he answers with 5 ...a6?
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On August 24 2011 07:17 Empyrean wrote:+ Show Spoiler +No, I agree with you. I'm saying that the calls to castle are fallacious because they assume we're following the main line of the Ruy Lopez, which we obviously are not. 5. 0-0 is the standard response of a line we're not even following, so claims that it's the standard response don't make sense and that line of reasoning is an extremely poor rationale for the choice.
EDIT: It's akin to saying "The main line to the open Sicilian involves 5. Nc3. Therefore we should now play 5. Nc3." We're not playing the open Sicilian. We're also not playing main line Ruy Lopez. Seriously guys, 5. d4. Please allow me to convince you :O
+ Show Spoiler +
Frankly at this point there is no way to convince people on anything else then aesthetic preference as none of the moves is "correct" one. As far as I gather they are both viable and all points about which is better are just educated "guesses" since positions in which they end up differ in highly debatable aspects. Both differ in similar way as 1.e4 differs from 1.d4, are people going to argue that "1.e4" is "correct" ? No, the choice is still deep in taste and preference territory.
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+ Show Spoiler +@qrs
You're right, I made some errors in my notation. So sorry. I'll edit those right after this.
But first, I'm going to talk about 5. d4 a bit more as I've been thinking about it all day now.
Here I go:
d4 is a much sharper move than 0-0 which is a much quieter, more positional play. I, as a player, am a quiet player; sharp tactical attacks and combinations have never been my strength and that is going to color my perception, naturally.
So let's look at 5. d4.
+ Show Spoiler +It threatens the bishop, exerts force in the center, but leaves the e4 pawn hanging. It also opens lines for our dark-squared bishop.
As I think has been agreed, Black's best response is 5. ... exd
+ Show Spoiler +5. ... a6 loses a piece.
5. ... Bb6 keeps Black's dark-squared bishop prepared for a possible kingside attack, but I think that Black loses a pawn to 6. BxN dxB 7. Nxe5 (... Nxe4 for is weak for Black due to Qe2).
So then what? I've argued before that 6. cxd is weak due to Bb4+. Even with 7. Bd2, Black likely wins a pawn, and even if we simplify, we're left with a situation where both sides are likely going to castle kingside and Black has a massive Queenside pawn majority. White's pawns in the center are also weak, as the surviving d-pawn will likely be isolated, unless there is a capture by the b-pawn in the simplification process.
But qrs and jdseemoreglass have addressed this more than adequately on p.34, and the very interesting
6. e5 was their suggestion.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't particularly like BxN in this situation as the position is about to be blown wide open and it would be nice to keep the bishop pair, especially as our light-squared bishop is strong and our dark-squared bishop just had lines opened. Black's dark-squared bishop is currently less strong (IMO) than our light-squared bishop and Black's light-squared bishop is quite undeveloped... unless we decide to do the exchange, as dxB immediately opens good lines for it.
This is another sharp move and complicates the position quickly. Most proponents of 5. d4 have argued that
6. ... Nd5 is Black's best response.
At this point, jdseemoreglass's analysis is great, and as far as I can tell, quite solid. 7. 0-0 and my major concern, which is that we're going to have both Kings castled kingside but us with a queenside pawn minority and weak center pawns due to the inherent danger on the d4 square (unless, as jdseemoreglass points out, there is a trade on c), is more than nullified by White's superior position and development. A kingside attack would be well within White's grasp long before Black could make his queenside potentials into actuals.
But what about a move that I dismissed over and over again when looking at this, but now am reconsidering:
6. e5 Ng4
Black is immediately threatening dxc again. That d-pawn is going to fall, why wouldn't Black try and make the most of it?
Additionally, Black is eying the isolated pawn on e5.
7. cxd Bb4+
8. Bd2
+ Show Spoiler +7. h3, 7. 0-0 and 7. Bf4 just don't work out very well for White
And now what? Black's g-Knight can only go to h6, which might be bad (it is why I originally dismissed it), but h6-f5 is actually pretty strong if he has the time.
The standing at this point, as I see them would be thus: material is even; White has a lead in development; Black has a queenside pawn majority, and both kings are going to castle Kingside (and from here, it is pretty clear that there will be time for both sides to do so unless a massive simplification takes place); White controls the center but the d-pawn is weak.
Am I missing something?
If not, I will change my vote to 5. d4.
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On August 24 2011 07:44 Ng5 wrote:
Oh guys, sometimes I want to reply to some of these posts so bad it's not even funny.
And I don't even get to read the juicy bits.
It will take a whole marathon again, just to get over this one game once it's over.
I'd love to hear your thoughts. Personally, I would have no problem with you reading all the spoilers. It's not like we are going to surprise you with any tactics anyways; you probably see our plans OTB simply by the moves we make. Having open analysis for both sides to read I think would lead to a more complex and solid game, but that's just me
What do you mean by taking a marathon to get over the game?
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On August 24 2011 07:44 Ng5 wrote:
Oh guys, sometimes I want to reply to some of these posts so bad it's not even funny.
And I don't even get to read the juicy bits.
It will take a whole marathon again, just to get over this one game once it's over.
Likewise to jdseemoreglass, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I've been spoilering so that people don't have to wade through what they might not want to as I can be a bit... verbose.
I like open analysis games; I learn the most from them.
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5. d4 or 0-0.
+ Show Spoiler +d4 gets you more control of center now so I'm favoring it a little more.
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Response to picklesicle
the line 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ng4
+ Show Spoiler +
There are a few problems with this move.
1) It removes the knight from defense of the c3 square, allowing white to develop his knight there against the bishop check.
2) It removes the knight from the defense of the e7 square, which weakens the defense against white's eventual threat of Bg5.
3) It discourages black from being able to castle king-side. Castling would lead to h3 Nh6 Bxh6, busting the king-side open.
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5.d4
+ Show Spoiler +What can black respond with? Definitely not these: + Show Spoiler +
5... Bd6
There's no way this can be a good move as after 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 black is just down in material without any advantage in tempo or position
5... Be7
After 6. dxe5 Nxe4 7. Qd5 Nc5, white has greater activity and good attacking opportunities after 8.Be3
5... Bf8
Loses tempo plus material gain after 6. dxe5
5... exd4
We can now thrust our pawn up via 6.e5, black can't follow up with Nh5? as it allows 7. Nxd4! nor should it risk Ne4 as after Qe2, black loses that knight... Ng4 is the same as Nh5 except now the knight can retreat to h6 allowing Bxh6, ruining black's castled position. This leaves 6. ... Nd5, allowing us to take d4 and giving us two strong center pawns.
That leaves... 5...Bb6 Castling is possible at this stage. The difference in position is that we get a stronger pawn structure to work with.
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On August 24 2011 07:59 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 07:54 wuBu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, now you got me thinking more. Interesting how many top GMs favor the 5. d4 lines, and now I should probably do more research.
And Empyrean, you're right that we're not following the main line Ruy Lopez. But, 4...Nf6 is considered the main line of the Classical Defence., in which white's usual response (assuming we're following the main line of the Classical) is to castle. Note: I'm not saying that following this line is the correct way to play because it is not. I'm just giving a reason as to why I chose this move because I'm the type of player that likes to play a more safe, positional game (d4 player at heart XD).
This is the line I'm looking at as my reasoning for 5. 0-0:
4.c3 Nf6
5.0-0 0-0
6.d4 Bb6
7.Re1 d6
8.Bg5
But I'll reconsider the position after I take my final this week x_x. + Show Spoiler +This assumes that black castles right after we do. What if he answers with 5 ...a6?
+ Show Spoiler +Man I wish I was home right now to properly analyze and give you a decent continuation. At glance, after 5...a6 I think white could reply with 6. Bxc6, which play will most likely continue 6...dxc6 7. Nxe5, and from then on the game could get wild in a hurry. There are a lot of sharp variations that I'm going over.
You may be right that white might not have a good reply if black responds 5...a6 since Bxc6 concedes the bishop pair early in an open position.
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On August 24 2011 08:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:Response to picklesicle the line 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ng4+ Show Spoiler +
There are a few problems with this move.
1) It removes the knight from defense of the c3 square, allowing white to develop his knight there against the bishop check.
2) It removes the knight from the defense of the e7 square, which weakens the defense against white's eventual threat of Bg5.
3) It discourages black from being able to castle king-side. Castling would lead to h3 Nh6 Bxh6, busting the king-side open.
Done. You have fully convinced me that neither 6. e5 Nd5 nor 6. e5 Ng4 are without good play from White.
I stand corrected.
My vote is now 5. d4
I will obliterate my earlier post arguing for 5. 0-0, or at least add a note to the top pointing out my change of heart.
Again,
5. d4
edited for proper use of the English language to actually communicate my intent!
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On August 24 2011 08:28 Picklesicle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 08:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:Response to picklesicle the line 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ng4+ Show Spoiler +
There are a few problems with this move.
1) It removes the knight from defense of the c3 square, allowing white to develop his knight there against the bishop check.
2) It removes the knight from the defense of the e7 square, which weakens the defense against white's eventual threat of Bg5.
3) It discourages black from being able to castle king-side. Castling would lead to h3 Nh6 Bxh6, busting the king-side open.
Done. You have fully convinced me that neither 6. e5 Nd5 nor 6. e5 Ng4 work. I stand corrected. My vote is now 5. d4I will obliterate my earlier post arguing for 5. 0-0, or at least add a note to the top pointing out my change of heart. Again, 5. d4
I'm glad we are having this debate, I think it's fun. 
I just want to clarify, I never said Nd5 doesn't work, because it certainly can. I was simply trying to debate the people arguing that 5. d4 puts white at a disadvantage, or loses a pawn. I think both sides still have good chances in that position.
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EPT
