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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:26 Babyfactory wrote: Again, can you give reasoning for these one-line assessments like "Black has a stronger position"? Even if it's clear to you, that doesn't mean it's clear to everyone.+ Show Spoiler + 6. e5 Nd5 7. cxd4 Bb4+ and Black has a stronger position In your last line, I'd play 8. + Show Spoiler [move] + Bd2 | ||
Empyrean
17050 Posts
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Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
I originally argued here for 5. 0-0, but jdseemoreglass and qrs have convinced me that 5. d4 is the stronger move. + Show Spoiler + p.s. before anyone jumps on me, I don't think 5. 0-0 is bad; I am now just convinced that 5. d4 is better. | ||
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Dr. Von Derful
United States363 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:25 qrs wrote: Don't overstate the case. I see that you edited your post before I could reply. As your edit points out, Black does not win the + Show Spoiler [continued] + pawn. 7. Bd2 is one way to keep it. Another way is 6. e5. Another possibility is 6. BxN. Now you say that 7. Bd2 "leaves Black with a stronger position". Maybe you're right, but saying so doesn't make it true. Can you back up that statement with some reasoning? + Show Spoiler + Sure. I'm busy running through what I see with the position and tend to post before a solution but I feel confident Black has the "advantage" in this position at the end after: 7. Bd2 Nxe5 8. Nc3 Nxd2 9. Qxd2 a6 10. Bxc6 dxc6 (Bishop Pair vs Knight Pair in a semi open game) 8. Bxb4 Nxb4 9. Qe2 f5 8. Bxc6 Nxd2 9. Bxd7+ Bxd7 10. Nxd2 -- turn in to Bishop pair vs Knight Pair with IQD and an Open Game | ||
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Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
I'm an idiot who can't read. Babyfactory covered everything I wanted to "add". | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9169 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What was the point of playing c3 in the first place, if instead of d4 we castle. | ||
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Dr. Von Derful
United States363 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:30 qrs wrote: Again, can you give reasoning for these one-line assessments like "Black has a stronger position"? Even if it's clear to you, that doesn't mean it's clear to everyone. In your last line, I'd play 8. + Show Spoiler [move] + Bd2 I'll post something to this when I get back tomorrow from picking up school supplies (>< last minute shopping) + Show Spoiler + but I'm looking right now at 8 ... Nf4. Perhaps, "stronger" was the wrong word but I feel that there is a slight advantage to Black given that most scenarios I play out seem to result in Two Knights vs Two Bishops or Two Knights vs Bishop + Knight or Black being able to castle Queen side to barrel down on the D-pawn and D-file to compensate for the lack of a grasp on the center. It's either the IQD or the poor development in white's position that has me worried when I look at the different variations that I'm coming up with. It just seems that there isn't a position in which I'd feel comfortable playing as white. I'm also tired, so I'm sure I'm missing stuff and you and JD will be able to come up with some stuff. | ||
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wuBu
United States83 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:51 itsjustatank wrote: 5. d4 + Show Spoiler + What was the point of playing c3 in the first place, if instead of d4 we castle. + Show Spoiler + Chess is a game where move order matters (kinda like Starcraft eh?). Babyfactory and Picklesicle both made good points as to why White would like to castle first before playing d4. And I basically agree with all their points and analysis on it, which is why I would personally play 5. 0-0 over 5. d4. | ||
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ParanoiaHoT
United States103 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + So ridiculously silly. So many of us gave great reasoning behind castling on move 4, but were overwhelmed by the c3 horde of zombies, now people are voting castle as move 5 making our c3 move pointless, it accomplishes nothing without d4 for the pressure right after. If you want to castle now, you should of wanted to castle on move 4 so we could 5. c3 and 6. d4. Not to c3 so for a future d4. We could of already had the safety of the castle, people opted out. What is the point of castling now versus d4? I was all for castling on move 4, but besides the "standard" argument I see in every spoiler I open (really super fun way to play) there's no reason to castle until 6, after we force some pressure. Our f pawn is fine, he didn't sac before, he won't now. He's threatening more with his Nf6, the absolute best move here is d4. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:41 Babyfactory wrote: OK, I spent a bit of time looking at these lines, and I agree with you that in this line (from White's 6th move and on), Black has the advantage. I had thought that + Show Spoiler [move] ++ Show Spoiler + Sure. I'm busy running through what I see with the position and tend to post before a solution but I feel confident Black has the "advantage" in this position at the end after: 7. Bd2 Nxe5 8. Nc3 Nxd2 9. Qxd2 a6 10. Bxc6 dxc6 (Bishop Pair vs Knight Pair in a semi open game) 8. Bxb4 Nxb4 9. Qe2 f5 8. Bxc6 Nxd2 9. Bxd7+ Bxd7 10. Nxd2 -- turn in to Bishop pair vs Knight Pair with IQD and an Open Game 8. Qe2 ...Qe7 To be clear, I hadn't been saying that I thought White's position was better in this line--I was just asking you to provide some support for your assessment of the position, which you did. Thanks. That doesn't mean that I agree with you and pickle about 5. d4 being suboptimal. At a glance, either of White's two alternative 6th moves looked stronger to me than the one you played + Show Spoiler [at-a-glance reasoning] + 6. e5 preserves the e-pawn and a strong center for us, at least for the moment. 6. BxN makes Bd2 a much stronger response to Bb4+, as with his Bishop undefended, Black no longer has the time to play Nxe4 _________________________________________________________________________________ Edit First alternative 6th move: + Show Spoiler [6.] + BxN. As I've said, the reasoning behind this move (at this time) is to defend against Nxe4 by forcing Black to respond to Bd2. If Black plays the same way as in the lines you gave, the game might continue 6...dxB 7. PxP Bb4+ 8. Bd2 BxB 9. Nb1xB, and we arrive at the following simplified position. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6FAJG.png) where I prefer White's stronger central position and lack of doubled pawns. Perhaps more likely is that Black would play a different move than Bb4+. In either case, this line allows us to keep our central pawns, and to me it seems perfectly fine for us. __________________________________________________________________________________ Second alternative 6th move, following your most recent 8th move for Black. + Show Spoiler [continued] + After 6. e5 Nd5 7. PxP Bb4+ 8. Bd2, you suggested 8...Nf4. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZTRTa.png) Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see the point of this move. It invests a turn in moving a piece that was already developed, and it exposes Black's Knight to attack from our Bishop. True, this is not an immediate danger because of the pin on our Bishop; true as well that the Knight threatens a pawn of ours, but these are both very short-term things. 9. 0-0 and I can't see what Black has here. | ||
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noclaninator
Canada19 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 5. 0-0 Nxe4 6. d4 Bb6 7.Qc2 or Qe2 or Re1 or something. Strong center with good development and lots of options. | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9169 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:03 wuBu wrote: + Show Spoiler + Chess is a game where move order matters (kinda like Starcraft eh?). Babyfactory and Picklesicle both made good points as to why White would like to castle first before playing d4. And I basically agree with all their points and analysis on it, which is why I would personally play 5. 0-0 over 5. d4. My point is that we should have done 4. ... O-O in the first place. The hesitance to do 5. d4 makes me think that was a better move to begin with. | ||
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hype[NZ]
Japan412 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:28 itsjustatank wrote: My point is that we should have done 4. ... O-O in the first place. The hesitance to do 5. d4 makes me think that was a better move to begin with. + Show Spoiler + We played 4.c3 in order to prevent 4...Nd4 and also to prepare d4. This doesn't mean that we should automatically play d4 on the next move no matter what our opponent throws at us. If he had decided to play 4...f5, then I think that a 5.d4 vote would have been pretty unanimous, however now we have to weigh the various options. Since we have already played c3 we can still play d4 at a later time. Note: I still haven't decided what I want to vote for yet, just throwing my thoughts into the mix. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:28 itsjustatank wrote: I haven't gone through all of the lines (and I voted for 4. 0-0 last move and 5. d4 this move) but as a general sort of thing: that's the sort of argument that's difficult to make. To make it, you really have to go through all of the possible Black responses to both moves and see what could happen. It might well be that if Black had guaranteed to play 4...Nf6 no matter what, then 4. 0-0 would have been equivalent; yet, had we played 4. 0-0, Black might have had another possibility open up and played a different 4th move. Conversely, it might be that Black did not play the best 4th move that he could have, and 5. 0-0. takes advantage of an unexpected opportunity.My point is that we should have done 4. ... O-O in the first place. The hesitance to do 5. d4 makes me think that was a better move to begin with. I'm not saying that any of that is the case. I'm just saying that in general, those are the sorts of arguments that you have to rule out before you can say that a different move order would be equivalent to this one, just because one line transposes. edit: as I was writing this post, hype[NZ] posted with a concrete example of this sort of thing | ||
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Empyrean
17050 Posts
On August 23 2011 14:43 hype[NZ] wrote: + Show Spoiler + We played 4.c3 in order to prevent 4...Nd4 and also to prepare d4. This doesn't mean that we should automatically play d4 on the next move no matter what our opponent throws at us. If he had decided to play 4...f5, then I think that a 5.d4 vote would have been pretty unanimous, however now we have to weigh the various options. Since we have already played c3 we can still play d4 at a later time. Note: I still haven't decided what I want to vote for yet, just throwing my thoughts into the mix. EDIT: wasn't thinking. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 23 2011 13:39 Picklesicle wrote: Pickle, you make some good general points, although I'm slightly confused about some of the details you offer in your lines. + Show Spoiler [details] ++ Show Spoiler + I think I'm not on the roster. I missed voting on the first couple of moves due to being out of town on business. Sorry about that. I'll be a bit spotty and will sometimes be a little curt and not very helpful beyond posting a move suggestion due to my work schedule. Ng5 is following one of the main lines of the Classical Defense for the Ruy Lopez. I believe the book response is 5. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + the idea, as I've always understood it (not necessarily correctly, of course) is that White is simultaneously protecting the f-pawn, developing his king's rook and setting up to continue his concentration of strength in the center that (from Nf3, c3 with a possible d4 push and the agile light-squared bishop) with Qe2 - d4 - Re1. If the e-file blows open, White's slight, and I do mean slight, developmental lead will allow for strong play. Thus, White is actually hesitant to give up his bishop (as they're looking to eventually open the position, not close it). Black can respond with 5. ... Nxe4, but that's actually a questionable move. White can play 6. Qe2, a perfectly good development move (and one that likely would have been played anyway: the best kind) that also puts the question to Black's greedy play. 6. ... d4 immediately creates a pin on Black's c6 knight which makes the e5 pawn weak. 7. d3 should win back the lost pawn for White and create weakness in the center for Black, which is precisely what White wants, especially with the queen on e2. Re1, d4, Nd2 all work towards attacking and busting open that center. The dark-squared bishop is free (okay, so Nd2 needs to be carefully timed) and opportunities for a future Knight outpost are laid assuming White doesn't decide to just go ahead with the attack. Far more likely is a 5. ... 0-0, where black doesn't get greedy and take the position-weakening pawn on e4. Additionally, this gets the Black King out of the center before White can start to line up anything. 6. d4 is a viable (and book) move at this point. I'm not a huge fan of 5. d4, and here's why: We didn't (at least it wasn't in my mind) play 4. c3 in order to play 5. d4. We play 4.c3 in order to strengthen the vulnerable d4 square, taking it away from the Black Knight as a potential outpost (note the black pawn already set up on e5) and preparing the way for an eventually play towards the center - yes, almost certainly with d4, but not necessarily on the next move. 5. d4 is also basically a one-move attack. This is different from 6. d4 in that if we play 5. 0-0 we've prepared the way for additional pressure in the center (via Qe2 - Re1 as described above), and we don't need to take another tempo to prepare to make something of d4. If we 5. d4, Black *could* retreat (if they do, it'll probably be to d6, looking to shore up the center and prepare for 0-0) or even play 5. ... exd 6. cxd Bb4+ potentially winning a pawn on e4 as the White King is cheerfully exposed in the center. White is then on the back foot and Black should be able to catch up on development if they just play a conservative game (and why not if you're up a pawn and behind on development?). Thus, 0-0 before d4 is important to defend the king and f-pawn, while simultaneously adding teeth to White's threat to the center. I am honest-to-goodness curious about 5. Qe2, but something about it feels wrong to me. Can't quite put my finger on it and I don't have time to analyze or research it now. It looks awkward. But, in short, my move is the main line: 5. 0-0 Add: Babyfactory and qrs cover the details of 5. d4 better than I do above. I think my principles are still sound, so I'm going to leave it, but edit in "potentially" on Black being up a pawn.  after 5. 0-0 NxP 6. Qe2, you suggest 6...d4 [I assume you meant d5], noting that it makes the e5 pawn weak. You go on to suggest 7. d3, but in this situation, can't White take the pawn immediately with 7. Nxe5? That said, it doesn't look to me like Black can keep the pawn in any case, and I agree that 5...Nxe4 is probably not Black's best. I think you offer a strong case for 5. 0-0, although to my mind 5. d4 is an equally strong candidate at the moment. It's probably worth analyzing these moves a bit more so that we can get a better picture of the differences between them. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + After 4. c3, I think black has a clear best move here: 4. ... Nf6. This move attacks our undefended e-pawn, develops the knight to it's ideal square, clears the way for a king-side castle, and leaves the e-file open for his rook. Nge7 I think would be a little too conservative. It puts no pressure on white, allowing us to develop freely, and it blocks his rook and his queen from the e-file. He could also play 4. ... Bb6, anticipating our d4 advance, but this inversion of moves seems a little passive. After 4. c3 Nf6, we should continue with the plan we established on move 4 by playing 5. d4. Here I think black's best response is to simply retreat the bishop to b6. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F39Da.png) After 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 Bb6, we have a number of options. One is to simply castle. 6. O-O O-O. Here we have the option of playing 7. Bg5, but I don't think that's our best move. I would prefer Nbd2, defending our e-pawn and developing a knight. After 7. Nbd2, black should probably play 7. ... d6, clearing a line for his bishop and defending the e-pawn. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ym6it.png) Here we have the possible variation: 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Nxe5 Re8 11. Nxc6 Qd7 12. Nd4 Nxe4 13. Nxe4 Rxe4 14. Be3, and white is a pawn up. Black's pawn structure is also weakened, but he has compensation in the two bishops on an open board. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mTgJ4.png) I actually prefer a different idea. It's very aggressive and tactical, perhaps risky, but it looks like the best way to keep the initiative and get an attack going (as well as making the game more exciting). 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 Bb6 6. Nxe5! Here black has a number of options. Let's look at a couple: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lql5f.png) 6. ... O-O 7. Nd2 Qe7 8. Nc4 Nxe4 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 d5 11. Re1 Qf6, putting us in a good position. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UZpU6.png) Black probably has better chances playing the highly tactical variation: 6. ... Nxe5 7. dxe5 Nxe4 8. Qg4 Bxf2+ 9. Ke2 Qh4 10. Qxg7 Rf8 11. Bh6 Bc5 12. Nd2 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EUgr0.png) Most people probably won't be comfortable with a line of this sort, but I think we can navigate our way through all the tactics fairly safely and come out ahead. I'm not sure why people are suddenly paranoid about d4. They aren't seeing down the road clearly enough in my opinion. If black trades the e-pawn away, he is giving away some central control, and he certainly can't win a pawn. Here are some examples of how it would play out: 5. d4 exd4... + Show Spoiler + 6. e5 This is the best move to pressure the knight and simultaneously eliminate the threat on the e-pawn. 6. ... Nd4 Here we have the in-between move, O-O. Black can't take another pawn because his knight will hang. This is how we prevent the bishop check. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4RMjj.png) Here the book line follows: 7. O-O O-O 8. cxd4 Bb6 9. Bc4 Nce7 10. Bg5 Qe8 11. Qb3 c6 12. Nbd2 h6 13. Bxe7 Nxe7 14. Ne4 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vkw37.png) This is an example of the trouble black can get in by trading away his central control. Another possible line, to prevent the threat of Bg5 is: 7. O-O Be7 This is what I would recommend. It preemptively moves the bishop from being attacked, and also protects his d8-h4 diagonal from the threat of Bg5. 8. cxd4 Here white is perfectly fine. He is safely castled, has good central control, and open lines for development. Next we can play Nc3, attacking the centralized knight and, if black trades, solidifying our central pawn chain. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8Iddy.png) One final variation: 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+ 8. Bd2, and after the exchange that follows, white has a slight advantage in space, central control, and development. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZorGc.png) I'm not sure how people are defining the "standard" line, but I hope we would make actual reasoned arguments instead of unsourced appeals to authority. There are a large number of standard book openings that include 5. d4. I'm voting 5. d4 + Show Spoiler + Playing this move was the whole point to playing c3. There is no need to be overly passive now. d4 is the aggressive move, it is safe, it takes the center and opens lines. | ||
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Sandwhale
United States20 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Standard line is standard. On August 23 2011 15:37 jdseemoreglass wrote: This is actually the type of position that feels like a strength because of the increased space we gain in the center, but is actually a weakness. We don't want to have an overextended center which will be undermined by the [d6] move that you outline. Committing our pawns to a d4-e5 formation means that our pawn center will have to be traded off very soon, resulting in a game where we have minimal advantages. | ||
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chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Can't really add on any on everything else, but yea. Pretty much the best move in the position. d4 is possible, but I think 0-0 is more straight forward. | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The reason i chose 5.O-O over 5.d4 is that i like the position for white after black play 5. O-O 6.d4 which i think leads to better variation than the immediate 5.d4 I was initially worried that black can find a way to equalised after 5.... Nxe4 but after reading some of the analyse as well as looking up some of the games played in this line I am convince that white is better after 6.Qe2 or 6.d4 ie. 6. Qe2 d5 7.d3 Nf6 8. Nxe5 O-O 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. Bxc6 Rb8 and white is probably slightly better or better 6. d4 exd4 7. cxd4 Bb6 8. Qc2 and white keep a lot of initiative and have moves like Re1 to follow. The best line I can see after 5.d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O d5 and 5.cxd4 or Nxd4 also looks good for white and i think white also have a slight lead here (If 7. ...dxc3 8. Qd5 Bxf2 9.Rxf2 Nxf2 10. Kxf2 cxb2 11. Bxb2 should be big advantage for white due to the massive lead in development) | ||
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