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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 38

Forum Index > General Games
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jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 01:40:07
August 25 2011 01:27 GMT
#741
People asked for a side by side comparison of the moves. There are actually a huge number of possibilities, and analyzing them all is beyond my ability. What I can do however is list out all the book lines I have, as well as a couple alternatives. You can assess on your own the strength or weakness of each position.

Here is our starting position:

[image loading]

And the many book lines:
+ Show Spoiler +


There is only one book opening for 5. O-O

5. O-O O-O 6. d4 Bb6 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4

[image loading]



Now on to the multiple possible 5. d4 lines. Note that many of these lines are mutually exclusive according to white's moves, which means not all of the lines can be forced by black, but are taken if we choose them.

5. d4 Bb6 6. Qe2 exd4 7. e5 O-O 8. cxd4 Re8 9. Be3 Nd5 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. bxc3

[image loading]


5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Nd5 7. O-O O-O 8. cxd4 Bb6 9. Bc4 Nce7 10. Bg5 Qe8 11. Qb3 c6 12. Nbd2 h6 13. Bxe7 Nxe7 14. Ne4

[image loading]


5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+

[image loading]


5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qd7 11. O-O

[image loading]


5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qf5 11. Bd3

[image loading]


5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qxc7

[image loading]




The following lines are not book lines, but I've been analyzing them for a couple days now as viable possibilities.

5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Nd5 7. O-O Be7 8. cxd4 d6 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Qb3 Nxc3 11. Qxc3

[image loading]


5. d4 Bb6 6. O-O O-O 7. Nbd2 d6

[image loading]

...followed by a possible: 8. Bxc6 bxc6 9. dxe5 dxe5 10. Nxe5 Re8 11. Nxc6 Qd7 12. Nd4 Nxe4 13. Nxe4 Rxe4 14. Be3

[image loading]


5. d4 Bb6 6. Nxe5 O-O 7. Nd2 Qe7 8. Nc4 Nxe4 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 d5 11. Re1 Qf6

[image loading]


5. d4 Bb6 6. Nxe5 Nxe5 7. dxe5 Nxe4 8. Qg4 Bxf2+ 9. Ke2 Qh4 10. Qxg7 Rf8 11. Bh6 Bc5 12. Nd2

[image loading]



Enjoy!


Edit: Forgot to add two lines. Please let me know if you guys see any mistakes in annotation, or if you have lines to recommend.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 25 2011 05:29 GMT
#742
By the way, check this out guys, you might like the idea.
Picklesicle
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 11:40:03
August 25 2011 05:51 GMT
#743
Re. jdseemoreglass' post, I'm only to going to comment on this line:

+ Show Spoiler +
5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qd7 11. O-O

By saying we should be really really careful here. + Show Spoiler +
I know I espoused Qe2 in an earlier argument, but that was as a follow up to 0-0. Specifically, the line I was addressing was

5. 0-0 Nxe4 6. Qe2


In this case, there is an alternative move 7 for Black that has a lot of play:

5. d4 exd
6. e5 Ne4
7. Qe2 Nxf2!?
And we should be really wary.

8. Kxf2?? d3+! and Black wins the queen.

8. Qxf2 Qe7 to protect the bishop and we're in very treacherous waters. Specifically, until we find a way to secure the queen and the g8-a7 diagonal, we can't really castle kingside. Definitely not on the next move as

9. 0-0?? d3+! and Black wins the queen again.

We're up a minor piece for a pawn here, but traps abound and it is more than likely we'll need to equalize material to buy the time to get our exposed king out of the center while also getting our queen to safety.

In other words, let's look closely at 5. d4 exd 6. e5 Ne4 and see what good play we have with it.

It is worth pointing out that 5. 0-0 does avoid this possibility. So, as per qrs' request, there is something that 5. 0-0 does that 5. d4 does not. I don't think the position is unplayable, though, just highly tactical and complex. Not my strength.


This doesn't change my vote back, I'm staying with 5. d4 but as the intense discussion and close vote count show, it isn't clear cut.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
August 25 2011 06:07 GMT
#744
I would do b4 or d4 here, as I want to push using our c3
5. d4
I am agreeing with this considering it's a GM move. Good case.
I will possibly not be able to post over the next few weeks, please do not remove me
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Picklesicle
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-25 12:08:44
August 25 2011 06:10 GMT
#745
On August 25 2011 15:07 Bill Murray wrote:
I would do b4 or d4 here, as I want to push using our c3
5. d4
I am agreeing with this considering it's a GM move. Good case.
I will possibly not be able to post over the next few weeks, please do not remove me


Actually, to be fair, 5. 0-0 is also a "GM's move", in that there are plenty of cases of world-class players using it if that's the criteria.
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
August 25 2011 11:47 GMT
#746
Lol, with the "GM's move". Are their any "GM's move" in the opening at all? I think all "GM's move" will be notated with ! or !! after the move, right? Anyways I do believe d4 or 0-0 are the Top two moves for this position.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Snarfs
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1006 Posts
August 25 2011 15:45 GMT
#747
5. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler +
Just feels more my style to be passive. Get a little more info about the style of game the opponent is planning on playing. From Ng5's previous posts, it seems he is not much of a book opener and is likely to make an "interesting" move sometime soon. I'd like to wait, be passive, and let him make that move, then use our collective mind to determine it's weaknesses.
Boozerr
Profile Joined October 2010
United States28 Posts
August 25 2011 15:55 GMT
#748
d4
Chezus
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands427 Posts
August 25 2011 16:03 GMT
#749
5. D4
+ Show Spoiler +

I feel like D4 is the best move, castling can wait.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 25 2011 17:33 GMT
#750
I'm not GM I'm BM...

Just...
Couldn't...
Resist...
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 25 2011 18:02 GMT
#751
5. D4
Archers_bane
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1338 Posts
August 25 2011 18:47 GMT
#752
5. D4
Starcraft's BW glory days have passed, RIP Jaedong's dominance - 2013...EDIT 2017: WE BACK BOYS
Picklesicle
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States64 Posts
August 25 2011 20:20 GMT
#753
Here's my assessment of the 5. 0-0 line.

See jdseemoreglass' post at the top of p. 38 for the 5. d4 line. See also my comment on it a few posts later.
+ Show Spoiler +

Black plays 5. ... 0-0

6. d4 Bb6
and White has a solid pawn center and a secure king. Black has conceded no space as Bb6 does not actually cede ground but it does obstruct the b-pawn, making the modern a6-b5 for Black more difficult. However, with c3 having been played for White, this isn't a huge deal as White would love to have the light bishop on c2 for additional strength on the solid center advantage.
Black's king is secure and the Bxc6 exchange is not unfavorable for Black as this is a semi-open position that will eventually blow open. Black would probably like to follow up with d6, development of the queen and light bishop with an eye to attacking the pawn center at e4 and establishing a Knight outpost around c3 or d3 in the midgame.
This position (or very close to it) is one that is seen fairly often in games of all skill levels and as far as I can tell, doesn't particularly favor one side or the other. chessgames.com claims that White wins more often than Black from this position for whatever that's worth.

---------------
Black plays 5. ... Nxe4

6. Qe2 Nd6

This is an answer to 6. Qe2 that I hadn't considered earlier, but it allows Black to put the question back to White. The second move on the Knight isn't really a big deal as besides threatening the bishop, it is also exerting pressure in the center (which is White's real focus in the Ruy Lopez) and has a lot of play to both wings.

7. d4 exd
8. cxd just simplifies and takes away White's center in the process. Probably not advisable.


A [potentially unsound] move from Black that also catches my eye is

6. Qe2 Bxf2+
7. Rxf2 Nxf2
8. Qxf2
And White has traded a rook and two pawns for a (strong) bishop and a Knight. Black is still in the center, but castling kingside is going to be relatively easy: White has no real threats until the d-pawn is moved.
Black can play an aggressive d5 or a more defensive d6 to shore up the center, or even Qe7 (though I like this less as a move 8).
White has an advantage in minor pieces, which is significant until Black develops his rooks. White has also ceded control of the center, again, going against the grain of the core ideas of the Ruy Lopez for White.
However, Black still needs to take control of that center and is behind in development. It is probably not to White's advantage to exchange on c6: that bishop pair is going to be really nice really soon.

-----------
Another (somewhat questionable) option is

6. d4 with the goal of opening the e-file before chasing the Knight away. This is used in what I *think* is called the Berlin variation, but in that case Black's dark bishop is not on c5 so Nd6 is a great response. exd would lose the Knight there. However, in this case, Nd6 loses a piece for Black with

6. ... Nd6?
7. Bxc6 dxc6
8. cxc5

so Black needs to either play

6. ... Bb6 (or Be7, but I like Bb6 better)
7. Bxc6 dxc6 (I prefer the d pawn as it is unlikely that Black has the tempo to defend the e-pawn and it develops both the light bishop and the queen and immediately adds pressure on that critical d4 square)
8. Nxe5 0-0

Or

6. ... exd
7. cxd

Nxd4 doesn't prevent the isolated pawn after Nxd4 or Bxd4

7. ... Bb6 and the position overall favors Black due to advantages in material and pawn structure.


Thoughts? I'll add to this analysis as I have time and thoughts.
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
August 25 2011 21:53 GMT
#754
5.d4
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
August 25 2011 23:23 GMT
#755
5.d4
RAGEMOAR The Pope
Profile Joined February 2011
United States216 Posts
August 25 2011 23:58 GMT
#756
5 0-0
Mumu
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)56 Posts
August 26 2011 00:16 GMT
#757
5. 0-0
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 26 2011 03:26 GMT
#758
Currently d4 has seven more votes than the castle, unless I'm mistaken.

I will close the votes in half an hour and then upload the new statistics and pictures sometimes during the weekend if everything goes well. From the next move on I will be able to send reminders and give the statistics again.

Thank you for all the enthusiasm this round, guys.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 26 2011 03:59 GMT
#759
Alright guys I hereby declare...

The end of round 5.

5. d4

Won the round. I will post my reply sometimes this weekend, can't promise to make it much faster this time!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
August 26 2011 04:03 GMT
#760
Thanks for the post, pickles. I haven't had a chance to go through all of it, but I glanced through it, and this part caught my eye.
On August 26 2011 05:20 Picklesicle wrote:
Here's my assessment of the 5. 0-0 line.

See jdseemoreglass' post at the top of p. 38 for the 5. d4 line. See also my comment on it a few posts later.
+ Show Spoiler [excerpted] +
---------------
Black plays 5. ... Nxe4

6. Qe2 Nd6

This is an answer to 6. Qe2 that I hadn't considered earlier, but it allows Black to put the question back to White. The second move on the Knight isn't really a big deal as besides threatening the bishop, it is also exerting pressure in the center (which is White's real focus in the Ruy Lopez) and has a lot of play to both wings.

7. d4 exd
8. cxd just simplifies and takes away White's center in the process. Probably not advisable.
Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you were right not to consider this 6th move for Black earlier. White simply plays + Show Spoiler [continued] +
7. BxN and he's up a piece: if Black plays 7... PxB (either pawn), 8. QxP+ ... 9. QxB.

'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
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