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Sigh, I see nothing better. I hate this move, but Re3.
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^my reply to your previous post is at the bottom of the previous page
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re3 seems to be the only move holding all our material
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On November 17 2011 07:22 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:05 mastergriggy wrote:On November 17 2011 05:10 qrs wrote:On November 17 2011 03:45 mastergriggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't like 22. Re3 at all, but I'm not sure where to go otherwise :/
22. Re3 Rxe3
And then 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5 (else black with a protected passed pawned that looks unstoppable) Bxc5 doesn't look as strong for black as I thought it did, (with the weak isolated e pawn). I'm thinking the continuation is 25. Nd4 but I'm not sure white's general plan after this point. Activate the king is what I'm guessing, but I don't see the specific details right now.
23. Bxe3 sucks for white. He has zero active pieces. His only active one is now defending the pawn (Bishop).
I personally don't like Qrs's follow up for black with 23...Bd3 though, because of 24. Rc1 Bxa3 25. Rc3 Rb8 26. g3 Be4 27. Rxa3 Bxf3 28. Ra1 which looks drawish to me. That being said, I haven't worked out a good response for black that punishes white so it might be the best or their might be a line in there that plays out better for black.
Edit: wait nope scratch that my line sucks. Instead of 26...Be4 26...Rb1+ 27. Kg2 Bf1+ 28. Kh1 Bh3+ 29. Ng1 and white is dead. I've been posting most of my analysis to the tree (relevant line starts here). I don't know how much you've seen of it, but some of it addresses some of your post. + Show Spoiler +1) After 22. Re3 Rxe3 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5, Black can play, rather than 24...Bxc5, 24...Rxc5, and he immediately threatens both of our Queenside pawns. I don't see a way to stop him, nor to generate significant counterplay, and if we can't do either before he kills our pawns, then he'll have evened up the material, and we won't have a single advantage in this game (whereas Black will still have the Bishop pair on the open board). That's the reason that so far I'm favoring 23. Bxe3 instead, in the hope that we can make it end up working out. 2) I admit that 23...Bd3 may not be Black's best response to 23. Bxe3, but it's the one that worried me most at first. Later I started to think that we might manage to make out all right in it. Black's various other options can still use analysis. 3) If Black does play 23...Bxd3 in response to 23. Bxe3, my main line isn't 24. Rc1. Instead, I'm hoping we can play 24. Bd2 or perhaps 24. Ne1 followed by Bd2, the idea being to hold on to our Queenside pawns (or forcing Black to give something up to get one of them), and in particular, intending to play Bb4. As long as we can hold on to our material, we have something to play for. If we let Black get it all back for nothing, then I don't know what our plan is anymore. + Show Spoiler +Alright rook does look stronger than Bishop, so let's assume black would play that move over the other one which leads to more equality.
As for the 24. Bd2, I see black responding with Rb8 with the idea of Rb3.
If white blocks with 25. Bb4 Bxb4 26. axb4 Rxb4; white can't push the pawn because of the black rank mate. The position looks even, with a slight advantage for white with the passed pawn.
25. Ne1 seems to deal with the Bishop. Black can't play Rb3 here because of 26. Bb4 Bxb4 27. axb4 and black can't retake the pawn because of the hanging Bishop. 25...Bc4 to stop the pawn from pushing/keep it on the queenside as well as keeping white's king back. I don't see anything good for white except for more defensive play.
So, to sum up what I've looked at, it seems like black has a very solid response in Rb8 because of the holes on that file.
I need three more posts haha First of all, check the tree! A lot of what you've posted is on there already, including your suggested 24th move for Black. I just posted a further response there + Show Spoiler +(briefly, after 25...Bc4 we still have 26. Bb4) At any rate, I hope that at this point you agree that after + Show Spoiler +it's still a game: various options and plans are shaping up for us as well as for Black, and we continue to be able to play to keep an advantage, whereas after + Show Spoiler +23. fxe3 (c5 24. dxc5 Rxc5) Black has shut us down completely, and we have nothing left to play for except holding a draw.
Agreed on your post, we have to play + Show Spoiler + and find our best line in that. Also cheers for 500th 
Edit: What am I now, like a firebat? Haha
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On November 17 2011 15:53 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 07:22 qrs wrote:On November 17 2011 06:05 mastergriggy wrote:On November 17 2011 05:10 qrs wrote:On November 17 2011 03:45 mastergriggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't like 22. Re3 at all, but I'm not sure where to go otherwise :/
22. Re3 Rxe3
And then 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5 (else black with a protected passed pawned that looks unstoppable) Bxc5 doesn't look as strong for black as I thought it did, (with the weak isolated e pawn). I'm thinking the continuation is 25. Nd4 but I'm not sure white's general plan after this point. Activate the king is what I'm guessing, but I don't see the specific details right now.
23. Bxe3 sucks for white. He has zero active pieces. His only active one is now defending the pawn (Bishop).
I personally don't like Qrs's follow up for black with 23...Bd3 though, because of 24. Rc1 Bxa3 25. Rc3 Rb8 26. g3 Be4 27. Rxa3 Bxf3 28. Ra1 which looks drawish to me. That being said, I haven't worked out a good response for black that punishes white so it might be the best or their might be a line in there that plays out better for black.
Edit: wait nope scratch that my line sucks. Instead of 26...Be4 26...Rb1+ 27. Kg2 Bf1+ 28. Kh1 Bh3+ 29. Ng1 and white is dead. I've been posting most of my analysis to the tree (relevant line starts here). I don't know how much you've seen of it, but some of it addresses some of your post. + Show Spoiler +1) After 22. Re3 Rxe3 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5, Black can play, rather than 24...Bxc5, 24...Rxc5, and he immediately threatens both of our Queenside pawns. I don't see a way to stop him, nor to generate significant counterplay, and if we can't do either before he kills our pawns, then he'll have evened up the material, and we won't have a single advantage in this game (whereas Black will still have the Bishop pair on the open board). That's the reason that so far I'm favoring 23. Bxe3 instead, in the hope that we can make it end up working out. 2) I admit that 23...Bd3 may not be Black's best response to 23. Bxe3, but it's the one that worried me most at first. Later I started to think that we might manage to make out all right in it. Black's various other options can still use analysis. 3) If Black does play 23...Bxd3 in response to 23. Bxe3, my main line isn't 24. Rc1. Instead, I'm hoping we can play 24. Bd2 or perhaps 24. Ne1 followed by Bd2, the idea being to hold on to our Queenside pawns (or forcing Black to give something up to get one of them), and in particular, intending to play Bb4. As long as we can hold on to our material, we have something to play for. If we let Black get it all back for nothing, then I don't know what our plan is anymore. + Show Spoiler +Alright rook does look stronger than Bishop, so let's assume black would play that move over the other one which leads to more equality.
As for the 24. Bd2, I see black responding with Rb8 with the idea of Rb3.
If white blocks with 25. Bb4 Bxb4 26. axb4 Rxb4; white can't push the pawn because of the black rank mate. The position looks even, with a slight advantage for white with the passed pawn.
25. Ne1 seems to deal with the Bishop. Black can't play Rb3 here because of 26. Bb4 Bxb4 27. axb4 and black can't retake the pawn because of the hanging Bishop. 25...Bc4 to stop the pawn from pushing/keep it on the queenside as well as keeping white's king back. I don't see anything good for white except for more defensive play.
So, to sum up what I've looked at, it seems like black has a very solid response in Rb8 because of the holes on that file.
I need three more posts haha First of all, check the tree! A lot of what you've posted is on there already, including your suggested 24th move for Black. I just posted a further response there + Show Spoiler +(briefly, after 25...Bc4 we still have 26. Bb4) At any rate, I hope that at this point you agree that after + Show Spoiler +it's still a game: various options and plans are shaping up for us as well as for Black, and we continue to be able to play to keep an advantage, whereas after + Show Spoiler +23. fxe3 (c5 24. dxc5 Rxc5) Black has shut us down completely, and we have nothing left to play for except holding a draw. Agreed on your post, we have to play + Show Spoiler + and find our best line in that. Also cheers for 500th Edit: What am I now, like a firebat? Haha Now that at least we're pretty sure + Show Spoiler +which man to recapture with if Black goes for the immediate Rook exchange At the beginning, I didn't worry too much about this move, as I thought that 23. Nd2 was a good response. After looking at a lot of 22...Rxe3 lines that featured ...Bd3, I came to realize that ...Bd3 is often a hard counter to the Nd2 strat. The basic idea of Black's play in these lines is that he plays to restrict our possibilities, and then shifts to attack our a-pawns, which we can't do very much to defend. Because of our weakness on the b-file, we can't count on being able to play Nb3 and on d2 our Knight blocks our Bishop from coming to d2 to defend a5.
However, 22...Rcb8 is a bit different from 22...Rxe3. 22...Rxe3 aims to deny us all possibility of counterplay as Black tries to ramp up the pressure on our position until we have to let go of something. For our part, our goal in these lines is to play the best defense we can--we'll probably have to let Black have at least one of our pawns, but we hope to extort some concession from him in exchange, such as giving up his Bishop pair, and then try to get a win out of our remaining pawn once we've ridden out the pressure.
22...Rcb8 is more ambitious, but also riskier. By improving his position before trading Rooks, Black adds to the pressure on us. On the other hand, by rushing to double Rooks, he gives us the opportunity of counterplay by threatening c7, which is pinned. Rc1 is a strong move for us in these lines, whether we play it immediately or after a move or two. 23. Nd2 may still be a good response, because of the possibility of Rc1 backing it up.
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^Then again, we do have + Show Spoiler + as a response to the above, which ought to guarantee us a pretty decent game at least, so probably Ng5 won't risk us playing the above after all. (For a while I thought that + Show Spoiler +was his counter to that, but I was just being blind and forgetting that we had a Knight on f3.)
At any rate, I reckon we're about ready for Black's next move, and a good thing too, since the deadline is tonight.
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+ Show Spoiler +In your 23. Bxc7 line you missed out that
22. Re3 Rcb8 23. Bxc7 Rb1+ 24. Re1 Rxe1+ 25. Rxe1 is possible, which is why black should play 24. .. Rxa1 instead.
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Tomorrow, tomorrow.
I love you tomorrow.
You're always a day away.
Edit: I'm a typical researcher ain't I?
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Hong Kong9172 Posts
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On November 18 2011 09:23 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In your 23. Bxc7 line you missed out that
22. Re3 Rcb8 23. Bxc7 Rb1+ 24. Re1 Rxe1+ 25. Rxe1 is possible, which is why black should play 24. .. Rxa1 instead. Here's where I put my analysis of the position after our 24th move in that line. As you see, the move I recommend for Black is the same as you do, so I'm not sure why you say I missed that. + Show Spoiler +Maybe you assumed that when I said that originally I was blind and forgetting about the Knight on f3 I was thinking about 24...Rxe1+, and the move that we couldn't play without the Knight on f3 was 25. Nxe1, but that's not what I meant.
Rather, after 24...Rxa1, if we did not have the Knight on f3, we would be forced to respond with 25. Rxa1, after which Black would win our Bishop. Because we do have the Knight on f3 defending our e1 Rook, we are able to respond with 25. Bxb8 instead, which works out all right.
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So tell me. Is it Re3 day?
I won't do the tables and counting now, but if it's Re3 I'll give my answer straight away.
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On November 18 2011 13:15 Ng5 wrote:
So tell me. Is it Re3 day?
I won't do the tables and counting now, but if it's Re3 I'll give my answer straight away. It's Re3 day by KST (still 20 minutes to go by the others).
Do give your answer straight away! I'm really curious which it is. My guess is + Show Spoiler +if it were anyone else, but say a 20% chance of + Show Spoiler +because we're playing you (and because you talked about being worried about one particular line until you remembered something about endgames).
edited to correct subjunctive
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Posted.
Yes it's Rcb8. Someone wise once said that what's bad cannot be good and what's good cannot be bad. Though they didn't mean chess. One or the other applies to either Re3 or Rc8 to begin with. I've been planning Rc8 for weeks now should this variation arise, but I became a little shaken in the very last moment.
I forgot a few principles of endgames that makes this viable, and a few others that made everything else not so viable.
But, you learn something every day I say.
So all in all.
Vote ends here.
And at the same time.
The new round starts here!
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OK, cool. I'm glad Ng5 played this, as it means we can be comfortable as we decide our next move: if we don't have anything better, we can always bail with 23. Bxc7. 22...Rxe3 gave us more to be nervous about, although I do think we were starting to find the answers.
Here's what we have on the position so far.
Not voting yet, because it's an interesting position and I'm not sure which move I like best yet.
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23. Bxc7
+ Show Spoiler +After some trading and we have our e file open with control of our rook, pretty good position for us I think.
Edit, not 22, 23.
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I am not sure i like
23. Bxc7
Feels like he can threaten our bottom line and lock our knight in place for a good while, at the time having total freedom to move any of his pieces. Not sure where i would like to go yet though.
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EPT
