TL Chess Match 4 - Page 118
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aphorism
United States226 Posts
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
Just asking. | ||
Blazinghand
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United States25550 Posts
I want to hear more about alternative moves please. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:10 Blazinghand wrote: Got any?I want to hear more about alternative moves please. | ||
Blazinghand
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United States25550 Posts
AUGH you got me. OK i'll do some thinking :D | ||
GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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dtvu
Australia687 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Possible continuation are: 22...Rxe3, whether we play 23. fxe or 23. Bxe3, then 23...c6, 23...c5 or 23...Ra8 are all playable for black. I prefer 23.fxe though since the bishop if much more of a threat on the f4 square and gives room for our king to move. I think we'll be hard to keep the a3 pawn in any case, so follow with: 24. g4 if we can open up the king side, then our position will be more advantageous given our knight and bishop are already there. | ||
dtvu
Australia687 Posts
If Black plays 22... Rb7, then we can play 23. g4 immediately, gaining momentum. if black plays 22...Rb5, then 23. Bd2 follow by 24. Re1, we would gain massive advantage with the open e-file | ||
dtvu
Australia687 Posts
On November 16 2011 10:23 GenesisX wrote: Is Reb1 worth considering at all? No, it's pretty much suicidal if we play that now. Black can take pawn (a3 then a5 after) or double up his rooks with Rcb8. | ||
SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:34 qrs wrote: I disagree: I think Black will play one of three moves, none of which are the one that you mention. + Show Spoiler + His most likely move, imo, is 22...Rxd3, but he could also play 22...Rcb8 or 22...Rd3. If Black gives up the position, as you suggest, Re1 is a strong move for us (prefaced by 23. a4 if Black plays 22...Rb5). For that reason, I think that Black will play one of the three above moves. See 22. Re3 on the tree for more analysis. edit: actually, maybe your move works out for Black too... looking at it some more... PS: I miss everyone posting analysis. ![]() edit 2: OK, I added SheaR's suggestion to the tree, here. It looks like it has potential to be an interesting line. I kind of hope Black will go down it, as the other suggested continuations tend to lead to simplification. I think we have strong chances if he does, so I'm afraid he probably won't, but who knows the mind of Ng5? + Show Spoiler + Of the 3 possible move you suggested, it is indeed possible that he can do those move if he did 22...Rxd3 I dont really see what he can gain from this trade. Considering he already down pieces I dont think he would want to trade pieces at all unless he gain a game changing advantage or a significant advantage. This was mainly why I didnt really considered him doing this move but then again it not a terrible move so it still plausible. 22...Rcb8 I dont see why he would do this move when we can just do Bxc7 right after then follow up by RxBe7+ and retreat back to defend bot row. 22...Rd3 I dont really see anything he can gain from this position. He can keep pressure on the middle pawn now and the a3 pawn but with our knight there he doesnt seem to be able to do much. We also have the option to just trade which isnt a bad choice cause we are up pawns anyways. Which is why I think he would probably retreat and do Rb5 to attack the weakest pawn pieces we have atm. He cant really do anything else that I can see. Also, this pawn will most likely fall because it some what troublesome to defend it as well and if he does go for this, I think it best to sacrifice it and just trade it for something position or another pawn. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 16 2011 13:31 SheaR619 wrote: About the second two moves I suggested, let's dismiss them from the discussion for now, because at the moment, the move that I'm by far the most worried about is the first. + Show Spoiler + Of the 3 possible move you suggested, it is indeed possible that he can do those move if he did 22...Rx[e]3 I dont really see what he can gain from this trade. Considering he already down pieces I dont think he would want to trade pieces at all unless he gain a game changing advantage or a significant advantage. This was mainly why I didnt really considered him doing this move but then again it not a terrible move so it still plausible. 22...Rcb8 I dont see why he would do this move when we can just do Bxc7 right after then follow up by RxBe7+ and retreat back to defend bot row. 22...Rd3 I dont really see anything he can gain from this position. He can keep pressure on the middle pawn now and the a3 pawn but with our knight there he doesnt seem to be able to do much. We also have the option to just trade which isnt a bad choice cause we are up pawns anyways. Which is why I think he would probably retreat and do Rb5 to attack the weakest pawn pieces we have atm. He cant really do anything else that I can see. Also, this pawn will most likely fall because it some what troublesome to defend it as well and if he does go for this, I think it best to sacrifice it and just trade it for something position or another pawn. + Show Spoiler [continued] + On November 16 2011 13:31 SheaR619 wrote: 22...Rx[e]3 I dont really see what he can gain from this trade. Considering he already down pieces I dont think he would want to trade pieces at all unless he gain a game changing advantage or a significant advantage. This was mainly why I didnt really considered him doing this move but then again it not a terrible move so it still plausible. I have to assume that you're saying this based on general principles, and in fact you yourself say that you didn't really consider him doing this move. I admit that in the abstract, it seems reasonable to assume that exchanges in general are good for us. However, this exchange is not! You want to know what significant advantage Black gains from it? In a nutshell, he trades off one of his several active pieces for our only active piece (our a1 Rook is stuck in the corner defending a3 and our Knight and Bishop are currently pretty restricted in mobility: there aren't many squares for them to go to). That's a definite short term advantage for Black: it allows him to concentrate his forces on areas where we can't bring as many of ours to bear. Let's not just debate theoretically, though: look at some lines. After 22...Rxe3, we have to either play 23. Bxe3 or 23. fxe3. Which do you prefer? For a time I thought that 23. fxe3 was better; I now think that the game is almost unwinnable if we play that, due to the response 23...c5. See the analysis here for more details. If we play 23. Bxe3, the Black response I was most worried about earlier was 23...Bd3, threatening a number of things on both the Kingside and the Queenside. I now think that we may be able to come out of that line OK--but more analysis is still necessary. See the analysis here for more details. Even if 23...Bd3 works out all right for us, there are still other Black responses that we need to consider after 23. Bxe3. In a nutshell, what you'll see if you look at these lines is that a) Black threatens to capture all of our Queenside pawns, and b) we don't have a good way to generate a counter-attack. That's really the big deal about losing our Rook at e3: it was one of the few pieces we had that could help us go after Black's own pawns. In its absence, we're reduced to hanging on to ours until we can slowly generate some counterplay--but hanging on to our pawns is not going to be easy. Please, check out what happens after 22...Rxe3 before dismissing it just because it's a trade. The main page on the tree for 22...Rxe3 is here. | ||
LaXerCannon
Canada558 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Keep material. Pure and simple. Re3 is okay as well but... 22. Re3 Rcb8. In this variation, he's threatening a backrow mate if we ever move our e3 rook away while still attacking our a3 pawn. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 17 2011 01:00 LaXerCannon wrote: + Show Spoiler +a4 + Show Spoiler + Keep material. Pure and simple. Re3 is okay as well but... 22. Re3 Rcb8. In this variation, he's threatening a backrow mate if we ever move our e3 rook away while still attacking our a3 pawn. Keep what material? 22. a4 Bb4, and Black will pick up the a5 pawn. We'll still have our pawn on a4, to be sure but I don't see a good way to make progress here. Do you? As for 22. Re3 Rcb8 we have a couple of at least decent-looking responses to that: 23. Bxc7 and 23. Nd2. The move I'm more worried about after 22. Re3 is 22...Rxe3, but at least there I see some play for us, unlike after 22. a4. My rule of thumb for our position is that we shouldn't let Black have even one of our a-pawns without extracting some concession in return, such as sidelining his Rook or making him give up his Bishop pair. | ||
Mash2
United States132 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I've been trying to come up with a way to make moving one of our rooks to another square on the back row work, but it doesn't. I also thought perhaps Nh4 might work as we would sacrifice the pawn for a little bit of tempo with our knight, in order to get it to the f5 square to apply pressure. But the more I looked at it, the more I think that actually takes our knight out of position more than it helps us put any pressure on. Perhaps in a couple moves, but right now Re3 is the move we need to play. Let's force him to either trade, or make an awkward move with that rook. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
I don't like 22. Re3 at all, but I'm not sure where to go otherwise :/ 22. Re3 Rxe3 And then 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5 (else black with a protected passed pawned that looks unstoppable) Bxc5 doesn't look as strong for black as I thought it did, (with the weak isolated e pawn). I'm thinking the continuation is 25. Nd4 but I'm not sure white's general plan after this point. Activate the king is what I'm guessing, but I don't see the specific details right now. 23. Bxe3 sucks for white. He has zero active pieces. His only active one is now defending the pawn (Bishop). I personally don't like Qrs's follow up for black with 23...Bd3 though, because of 24. Rc1 Bxa3 25. Rc3 Rb8 26. g3 Be4 27. Rxa3 Bxf3 28. Ra1 which looks drawish to me. That being said, I haven't worked out a good response for black that punishes white so it might be the best or their might be a line in there that plays out better for black. Edit: wait nope scratch that my line sucks. Instead of 26...Be4 26...Rb1+ 27. Kg2 Bf1+ 28. Kh1 Bh3+ 29. Ng1 and white is dead. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:45 mastergriggy wrote: I've been posting most of my analysis to the tree (relevant line starts here). I don't know how much you've seen of it, but some of it addresses some of your post.+ Show Spoiler + I don't like 22. Re3 at all, but I'm not sure where to go otherwise :/ 22. Re3 Rxe3 And then 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5 (else black with a protected passed pawned that looks unstoppable) Bxc5 doesn't look as strong for black as I thought it did, (with the weak isolated e pawn). I'm thinking the continuation is 25. Nd4 but I'm not sure white's general plan after this point. Activate the king is what I'm guessing, but I don't see the specific details right now. 23. Bxe3 sucks for white. He has zero active pieces. His only active one is now defending the pawn (Bishop). I personally don't like Qrs's follow up for black with 23...Bd3 though, because of 24. Rc1 Bxa3 25. Rc3 Rb8 26. g3 Be4 27. Rxa3 Bxf3 28. Ra1 which looks drawish to me. That being said, I haven't worked out a good response for black that punishes white so it might be the best or their might be a line in there that plays out better for black. Edit: wait nope scratch that my line sucks. Instead of 26...Be4 26...Rb1+ 27. Kg2 Bf1+ 28. Kh1 Bh3+ 29. Ng1 and white is dead. + Show Spoiler + 1) After 22. Re3 Rxe3 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5, Black can play, rather than 24...Bxc5, 24...Rxc5, and he immediately threatens both of our Queenside pawns. I don't see a way to stop him, nor to generate significant counterplay, and if we can't do either before he kills our pawns, then he'll have evened up the material, and we won't have a single advantage in this game (whereas Black will still have the Bishop pair on the open board). That's the reason that so far I'm favoring 23. Bxe3 instead, in the hope that we can make it end up working out. 2) I admit that 23...Bd3 may not be Black's best response to 23. Bxe3, but it's the one that worried me most at first. Later I started to think that we might manage to make out all right in it. Black's various other options can still use analysis. 3) If Black does play 23...Bxd3 in response to 23. Bxe3, my main line isn't 24. Rc1. Instead, I'm hoping we can play 24. Bd2 or perhaps 24. Ne1 followed by Bd2, the idea being to hold on to our Queenside pawns (or forcing Black to give something up to get one of them), and in particular, intending to play Bb4. As long as we can hold on to our material, we have something to play for. If we let Black get it all back for nothing, then I don't know what our plan is anymore. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On November 17 2011 05:10 qrs wrote: I've been posting most of my analysis to the tree (relevant line starts here). I don't know how much you've seen of it, but some of it addresses some of your post. + Show Spoiler + 1) After 22. Re3 Rxe3 23. fxe3 c5 24. dxc5, Black can play, rather than 24...Bxc5, 24...Rxc5, and he immediately threatens both of our Queenside pawns. I don't see a way to stop him, nor to generate significant counterplay, and if we can't do either before he kills our pawns, then he'll have evened up the material, and we won't have a single advantage in this game (whereas Black will still have the Bishop pair on the open board). That's the reason that so far I'm favoring 23. Bxe3 instead, in the hope that we can make it end up working out. 2) I admit that 23...Bd3 may not be Black's best response to 23. Bxe3, but it's the one that worried me most at first. Later I started to think that we might manage to make out all right in it. Black's various other options can still use analysis. 3) If Black does play 23...Bxd3 in response to 23. Bxe3, my main line isn't 24. Rc1. Instead, I'm hoping we can play 24. Bd2 or perhaps 24. Ne1 followed by Bd2, the idea being to hold on to our Queenside pawns (or forcing Black to give something up to get one of them), and in particular, intending to play Bb4. As long as we can hold on to our material, we have something to play for. If we let Black get it all back for nothing, then I don't know what our plan is anymore. + Show Spoiler + Alright rook does look stronger than Bishop, so let's assume black would play that move over the other one which leads to more equality. As for the 24. Bd2, I see black responding with Rb8 with the idea of Rb3. If white blocks with 25. Bb4 Bxb4 26. axb4 Rxb4; white can't push the pawn because of the black rank mate. The position looks even, with a slight advantage for white with the passed pawn. 25. Ne1 seems to deal with the Bishop. Black can't play Rb3 here because of 26. Bb4 Bxb4 27. axb4 and black can't retake the pawn because of the hanging Bishop. 25...Bc4 to stop the pawn from pushing/keep it on the queenside as well as keeping white's king back. I don't see anything good for white except for more defensive play. So, to sum up what I've looked at, it seems like black has a very solid response in Rb8 because of the holes on that file. I need three more posts haha | ||
GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On November 16 2011 13:01 dtvu wrote: No, it's pretty much suicidal if we play that now. Black can take pawn (a3 then a5 after) or double up his rooks with Rcb8. Nevermind. After analyzing the situation, Reb1 and a4 both end with material losses. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:05 mastergriggy wrote: First of all, check the tree! A lot of what you've posted is on there already, including your suggested 24th move for Black. I just posted a further response there + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + Alright rook does look stronger than Bishop, so let's assume black would play that move over the other one which leads to more equality. As for the 24. Bd2, I see black responding with Rb8 with the idea of Rb3. If white blocks with 25. Bb4 Bxb4 26. axb4 Rxb4; white can't push the pawn because of the black rank mate. The position looks even, with a slight advantage for white with the passed pawn. 25. Ne1 seems to deal with the Bishop. Black can't play Rb3 here because of 26. Bb4 Bxb4 27. axb4 and black can't retake the pawn because of the hanging Bishop. 25...Bc4 to stop the pawn from pushing/keep it on the queenside as well as keeping white's king back. I don't see anything good for white except for more defensive play. So, to sum up what I've looked at, it seems like black has a very solid response in Rb8 because of the holes on that file. I need three more posts haha (briefly, after 25...Bc4 we still have 26. Bb4) At any rate, I hope that at this point you agree that after + Show Spoiler + 23. Bxe3 23. fxe3 (c5 24. dxc5 Rxc5) | ||
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