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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 120

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mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
November 18 2011 18:06 GMT
#2381
Rc1

+ Show Spoiler +
We're not gonna win by trading off into a Bishop pair for black, which is for the most part what Bxc7 does. I don't think it's best to get greedy after pawns, though tactically I see nothing wrong but positionally I'm not a fan. Nd2 looks interesting, but not to the point where I feel good about black's b rank dominance.
Write your own song!
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25560 Posts
November 18 2011 18:26 GMT
#2382
What? I think it's a baller idea to get greedy after pawns! More pawns, more win. If we trade dark bishops and end up an addition pawn, that develops our advantage WHILE trading material. Sounds baller to me.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
November 18 2011 18:27 GMT
#2383
Awesome :D Chess is amazing, it's like a slower version of sc2 :D
Life's good :D
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 18 2011 19:47 GMT
#2384
On November 19 2011 03:26 Blazinghand wrote:
What? I think it's a baller idea to get greedy after pawns! More pawns, more win. If we trade dark bishops and end up an addition pawn, that develops our advantage WHILE trading material. Sounds baller to me.
Bxc7 is a good safety move to have--it's the move I'll vote for if there's nothing clearly better when we reach the deadline--but don't go into it thinking that it will give us more pawns. Here's the line it most likely leads to: we actually lose one of our two extra pawns, but we get to keep the remaining one. We're basically trading two bad pawns for one good one (and exchanging a bunch more material).

Again, 23. Bxc7 is all right, and I won't feel bad if we end up playing it, but it's not necessarily our best shot at playing for a win. The other moves worth considering, IMO, are the one mastergriggy voted for and the one he mentioned in his spoiler. Here's the current position on the analysis tree, which is where I'm putting my analysis, in case you want to see it and/or add to it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25560 Posts
November 18 2011 19:53 GMT
#2385
Hm. OK so how does this look:

23. Bxc7 Rb1+
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1

If he goes for 25 ... Kxc7 we can get our bishop back with Rxe7

I feel like there must be some massive hole in this line if it hasn't been considered yet. What do you guys think.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
November 18 2011 20:01 GMT
#2386
On November 19 2011 04:53 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm. OK so how does this look:

23. Bxc7 Rb1+
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1

If he goes for 25 ... Kxc7 we can get our bishop back with Rxe7

I feel like there must be some massive hole in this line if it hasn't been considered yet. What do you guys think.


+ Show Spoiler +
I can't find a hole in that line either, but I do have that same feeling.
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25560 Posts
November 18 2011 20:08 GMT
#2387
On November 19 2011 05:01 Mash2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 04:53 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm. OK so how does this look:

23. Bxc7 Rb1+
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1

If he goes for 25 ... Kxc7 we can get our bishop back with Rxe7

I feel like there must be some massive hole in this line if it hasn't been considered yet. What do you guys think.


+ Show Spoiler +
I can't find a hole in that line either, but I do have that same feeling.


+ Show Spoiler +
It might be related to the fact that we pin our own knight?
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Czar_Vexler
Profile Joined April 2010
United States7 Posts
November 18 2011 20:22 GMT
#2388
+ Show Spoiler +

After 23. Bxc7 I see:
23...Rb1+
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1 Bxa3 (threat of both Bb4 and Kxc7)
26. Bg3 Bb4
27. f3 Bd2 -+ (the rook is out of squares on the e file as far as I can tell)
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-18 20:54:20
November 18 2011 20:50 GMT
#2389
On November 19 2011 05:08 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 05:01 Mash2 wrote:
On November 19 2011 04:53 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm. OK so how does this look:

23. Bxc7 Rb1+
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1

If he goes for 25 ... Kxc7 we can get our bishop back with Rxe7

I feel like there must be some massive hole in this line if it hasn't been considered yet. What do you guys think.


+ Show Spoiler +
I can't find a hole in that line either, but I do have that same feeling.


+ Show Spoiler +
It might be related to the fact that we pin our own knight?


+ Show Spoiler +
That's kind of what I was thinking. So it would restrict our Rook's movement a bit, as he's covering the knight, until we could relieve the pressure on our king by moving one of those last 3 file pawns up. My question is, can we do this before he forces us to move that Rook off that file by using his F-file pawn in combination with the remaining light square bishop, king, and possibly dark-squared bishop if we don't trade those off?


Edit: Ah, sorry Czar_Vexler, didn't mean to just completely disregard your post. I see that my question is indeed answered in your line with the answer being a resounding no.
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 18 2011 21:05 GMT
#2390
Yes, sorry for linking only to the last page in the line: the main line that you've just discussed is addressed here. Pretty much what Czar_Vexler said, but he added the nuance with + Show Spoiler +
Bg3 and f3
which I hadn't considered.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
ApocAlypsE007
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Israel1007 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-18 23:39:36
November 18 2011 23:33 GMT
#2391
23. Bxc7 Rb1+
(23... Kxc7 24. Rxe7+ Kd8 25. Rae1)
24. Rxb1 Rxb1+
25. Ne1
Nothing new here I guess.
At some point the white king will have to get out as black's king's position is much better. With a later Bb6 can block black's rook lane. Knight at e1 is not that good, I guess f3 to g4 and h4 to follow is needed.
I'm playing the game, the one that will take me to my end, i'm waiting for the rain, TO WASH-- WHO I AM!!!
TruthIsCold
Profile Joined November 2011
51 Posts
November 19 2011 01:03 GMT
#2392
Hi, I'd like to be added to the roster please.

And I vote Rc1
"Be formed. Shaped. Like rock. If you put rock into a cup, it doesn't become the cup. Put it into a teapot, it doesn't become the teapot. Rocks can't flow, creep, drip, or crash. Be rock my friend."
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-19 07:45:09
November 19 2011 07:44 GMT
#2393
jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
Ng5 wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
League of Legends, here I come.


I am disappoint


I might also play some WoW this winter.

I will even stream if it ever happens.

I've been in a Skyrim stupor for days... I didn't even make the last vote!

The game is absolutely amazing. I'm just waiting for my wife to divorce me

Hopefully I can find some time to look over the next move without having withdrawals.


Actually I fired up Dragon Age Origins yesterday after spending a whole night in my office. Kind of fun, but it turned too easy even on hard and I'm not planning to turn it nightmare.

Just wanna get myself crowned queen and play it through legitimately with all the DLC.

Plus it's kinda fun. Just not really thrilling hardship-wise.

I'm eying a full pack download of Majesty with all the expansions. It's just 20 bucks on Amazon. I will get back to work soon again anyway, just want something mind-numbing. Maybe it'll be Mass Effect.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 19 2011 23:34 GMT
#2394
Voting for 23. Nd2, though I could be swayed to one of the other two candidates.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
SausageLinks
Profile Joined December 2010
United States93 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-20 04:31:45
November 20 2011 04:15 GMT
#2395
Voting for 23. Nd2

+ Show Spoiler +
not 23. Rc1 or else 23. ... Bc4 comes next, with the a3 pawn falling shortly thereafter.
the continuation for 23. Bxc7 that was given is deviated with 25. ... Bxa3 26. Bg3 Bb4 27. f3 Bd2 and our position looks really bad from there.
i like 23. Nd2 since it basically forces the Rook on b3 into action. it also helps cover the b1 square. 23. ...R3b5 can be covered with 24. Re1. theory behind Nf1 afterwards looks interesting.
n00b never die
TruthIsCold
Profile Joined November 2011
51 Posts
November 20 2011 04:35 GMT
#2396
What is the point of Nd2? We just moved away from there, we are throwing away a move for no reason. Black can just trade rooks and it's like he gets a free tempo for nothing.

If we play Rc1, and black plays Bc4, THEN Nd2 becomes a strong move. So strong, that I would say Bc4 is incorrect there.
"Be formed. Shaped. Like rock. If you put rock into a cup, it doesn't become the cup. Put it into a teapot, it doesn't become the teapot. Rocks can't flow, creep, drip, or crash. Be rock my friend."
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 20 2011 05:15 GMT
#2397
On November 20 2011 13:15 SausageLinks wrote:
Voting for 23. Nd2

+ Show Spoiler +
not 23. Rc1 or else 23. ... Bc4 comes next, with the a3 pawn falling shortly thereafter.
the continuation for 23. Bxc7 that was given is deviated with 25. ... Bxa3 26. Bg3 Bb4 27. f3 Bd2 and our position looks really bad from there.
i like 23. Nd2 since it basically forces the Rook on b3 into action. it also helps cover the b1 square. 23. ...R3b5 can be covered with 24. Re1. theory behind Nf1 afterwards looks interesting.
I agree with your reasoning for Nd2, but your argument against Rc1 is flawed, I believe + Show Spoiler +
23. Rc1 Bc4 24. Nd2, as TruthIsCold says below you.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 20 2011 05:23 GMT
#2398
On November 20 2011 13:35 TruthIsCold wrote:
What is the point of Nd2? We just moved away from there, we are throwing away a move for no reason. Black can just trade rooks and it's like he gets a free tempo for nothing.

If we play Rc1, and black plays Bc4, THEN Nd2 becomes a strong move. So strong, that I would say Bc4 is incorrect there.
Yes, yes, Black won't play Bc4 if we play Rc1. But that doesn't mean that Nd2 is not strong now. "We just moved away" is irrelevant: we needed to move away to let our Bishop out. Now the Bishop is out, and Nd2 becomes a good space for our Knight again.
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, Black can trade Rooks, and probably will. We take back with the f-pawn. We haven't given him a free tempo at all. The Knight is much more useful on d2 then on f3 in this situation:

a) It prevents Black from putting a Rook on b3 or b1. That makes it harder for him to do something useful with his b-Rook.
b) It pushes him into trading Rooks on our terms (i.e. on e3). That allows us to get the f-pawn to e3, which does two things:
--1) It gives us two central pawns to contest Black's two (in the only area where he had a pawn majority)
--2) It eliminates the possibility of a back-rank mate (letting our Rook go to c3, for instance) and gives our King a way to join the fight.
Words will only take us so far, though. I've been posting all my analysis on the tree. If you have anything to add comment on or disagree with, I'd love it if you posted there.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
November 20 2011 17:37 GMT
#2399
Here, in a nutshell, is why I prefer 23. Nd2 to 23. Rc1:
Position following 23. Rc1
Similar position following 23. Nd2
+ Show Spoiler [words] +
I definitely do want to play Rc1, to get our Rook into a more active position. I just don't want Black to have the response ...Rb1 available. That's why I think it's best to begin with 23. Nd2.

As for the b-rank dominance that mastergriggy mentioned, I think that with two of the most important squares on the b-file (b1 and b3) closed to Black, we have much less to worry about. We could even challenge his Rook on the b-file directly with Rb1, although that's not necessarily our best option. In fact, as far as I can see, 23. Nd2 does more to reduce Black's control of the b-file than 23. Rc1, not less.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-20 20:03:28
November 20 2011 19:50 GMT
#2400
Close decision; not much voting yet. Deadline's officially tonight.

Move 23 votes

+ Show Spoiler [votes] +
23. Bxc7: 2 (chesshaha, ApocAlypsE007)
23. Rc1: 2 (mastergriggy, TruthisCold)
23. Nd2: 2 (qrs, SausageLinks)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]

also, for completeness' sake:
Move 22 votes (final)

+ Show Spoiler [votes] +
22. Re3: 19 (qrs, Cloud 9157, jdseemoreglass, Archers_bane, Raysalis, chesshaha, SheaR619, ffreakk, hp.Shell, aphorism, ApocAlypsE007, dtvu, Mash2, mastergriggy, GenesisX, Bill Murray, wizard944, Malli, itsjustatank)
22. a4: 1 (LaXerCannon)
Abstain: 1 (Blazinghand)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
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