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I've played Duels of the Planeswalkers. I want to find an alternative that allows decks to be customized more. Great replies here, I'm going to check out some of these alternatives. Thanks!
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Borzhov lets you run Ball Lightning Helixes. Add that with Extort and you can run a pretty damn good "What's yours is mine" lifestealing deck. It might be able to outheal RDW agro and hit the midrange timer against control, but I worry it'll just straight up lose to Naya midrange
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On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set.
See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB.
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On February 03 2013 07:23 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set. See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB.
Except that doesn't really matter, there are 2 good SV hosers out there now (Boros Charm/Rootborn Defenses), if you put all your eggs in a T4 verdict and they have it, you just die. You can't really sit back on it anymore, you have to be more proactive with killing things earlier, Red does that better.
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On February 03 2013 08:44 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 07:23 Judicator wrote:On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set. See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB. Except that doesn't really matter, there are 2 good SV hosers out there now (Boros Charm/Rootborn Defenses), if you put all your eggs in a T4 verdict and they have it, you just die. You can't really sit back on it anymore, you have to be more proactive with killing things earlier, Red does that better.
Wat. How does Red do it better?
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On February 03 2013 09:51 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 08:44 deth2munkies wrote:On February 03 2013 07:23 Judicator wrote:On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set. See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB. Except that doesn't really matter, there are 2 good SV hosers out there now (Boros Charm/Rootborn Defenses), if you put all your eggs in a T4 verdict and they have it, you just die. You can't really sit back on it anymore, you have to be more proactive with killing things earlier, Red does that better. Wat. How does Red do it better?
I don't agree with that either. But you do get access to both Terminus and the 6 mana sweeper, both of which go around those cards.
I was considering Red for finishers in Aurelia's fury, Assemble the Legion, Rakdos Return, Spark Trooper, Stelesia Blood Hall...etc.
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On February 03 2013 10:04 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 09:51 Judicator wrote:On February 03 2013 08:44 deth2munkies wrote:On February 03 2013 07:23 Judicator wrote:On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set. See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB. Except that doesn't really matter, there are 2 good SV hosers out there now (Boros Charm/Rootborn Defenses), if you put all your eggs in a T4 verdict and they have it, you just die. You can't really sit back on it anymore, you have to be more proactive with killing things earlier, Red does that better. Wat. How does Red do it better? I don't agree with that either. But you do get access to both Terminus and the 6 mana sweeper, both of which go around those cards. I was considering Red for finishers in Aurelia's fury, Assemble the Legion, Rakdos Return, Spark Trooper, Stelesia Blood Hall...etc.
I'm thinking about doing something that includes the Aurelia I pulled in last night's draft, but I still haven't finished my Golgari deck, and I also kind of want to do some Dimir. I think what I really need to do, now that I have a couple of decks to dick around with, is start working on a high end deck.
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On February 03 2013 10:04 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 09:51 Judicator wrote:On February 03 2013 08:44 deth2munkies wrote:On February 03 2013 07:23 Judicator wrote:On February 02 2013 03:02 deth2munkies wrote:On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups. Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary. Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set. See the problem with those lines of play is that you are giving them perfect information, they can navigate around sorcery spell spot removal. Therefore, you're never really trading your black removal for red so there's really no great appeal to go Red for a control build based in WB. Except that doesn't really matter, there are 2 good SV hosers out there now (Boros Charm/Rootborn Defenses), if you put all your eggs in a T4 verdict and they have it, you just die. You can't really sit back on it anymore, you have to be more proactive with killing things earlier, Red does that better. Wat. How does Red do it better? I don't agree with that either. But you do get access to both Terminus and the 6 mana sweeper, both of which go around those cards. I was considering Red for finishers in Aurelia's fury, Assemble the Legion, Rakdos Return, Spark Trooper, Stelesia Blood Hall...etc.
See the entire argument for Red seems week, Assemble is slow, Rakdos is only good if you ramp into it (the lines are terrible otherwise since you need 5 damage), Spark Trooper is dead to both Death Wind or Tragic Slip or Spear or any one of the non-color based removal, Stensia is ok but you really can't activate in face of Sphinx's Revelation. Slaughter Games just seems like a derpy card in general. So Rakdos is the only real card you want.
The removal lines are terrible since Pillar is a sorcery. The little discussion we had about why I don't Slip their 1 drop in aggro decks on my turn is because I want to make it as difficult as possible for them to not have RW up when I try to Verdict. If they want to keep trying to dink me for little damage, I am okay with trading 1 for 1 since I have Sphinx's, Jaces, Tamiyos, aka ways to generate more advantage after turn 4 (whether I play Verdict or not). If you reach for Red and ditch Blue, you don't have that luxury. Esper can theoretically draw out of weaker/mediocre hands because of Sphinx/Jace, but Borozhov can't since you don't have Blue's utility cards and the bridge at 5 mana. Buying turns is something that Esper does better than RWB without diluting the card quality. You guys mention Extort, but what are you using to Extort? Blind Obedience? Sure, but remember you as a control player also playing by the aggro player's rules. You know the saying that aggro players are kind of like lets hope my top 15-20 cards are good enough? Control players abide those same sentiments until they can get some kind of advantage, either through Verdict/PWs/Sphinx's. With that in mind, I don't see any good lines with any of the RWB cards to generate slight advantage on turn 4 or 5. Losing Verdict is a big deal for this very reason, not all cards are anti-wrath and having access to Blue lets you open up.
This is why Esper has issues with Farseek openings since you're stuck on 2 mana when they're potentially on 4. That's also why Red doesn't do anything (or even less) because you don't have the available mana to do what you want with cards like Terminus.
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So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?"
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On February 03 2013 11:04 NotSorry wrote:
So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?"
Reported for exploitation imo.
Jokes aside, you got some real jerks at your store. I would have handed it back and made him take it, then traded 2 Groves for it later :D
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On February 03 2013 11:15 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 11:04 NotSorry wrote:
So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?" Reported for exploitation imo. Jokes aside, you got some real jerks at your store. I would have handed it back and made him take it, then traded 2 Groves for it later :D
Yeah, my store, MOST people would double check it was intentional. There's a few dicks, but mostly they'd want to be sure.
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On February 03 2013 11:15 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 11:04 NotSorry wrote:
So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?" Reported for exploitation imo. Jokes aside, you got some real jerks at your store. I would have handed it back and made him take it, then traded 2 Groves for it later :D
Maybe he was going deepXD
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On February 03 2013 11:55 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 11:15 Judicator wrote:On February 03 2013 11:04 NotSorry wrote:
So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?" Reported for exploitation imo. Jokes aside, you got some real jerks at your store. I would have handed it back and made him take it, then traded 2 Groves for it later :D Yeah, my store, MOST people would double check it was intentional. There's a few dicks, but mostly they'd want to be sure.
Yea our local is mostly creepy douche bags in their late 30s fresh out of a bad movie
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On February 03 2013 13:47 NotSorry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 11:55 JingleHell wrote:On February 03 2013 11:15 Judicator wrote:On February 03 2013 11:04 NotSorry wrote:
So I took my cousin to his first draft last night, about 30seconds before the start I showed him TCG's pricing for the top 10 cards. His first pack he opens a foiled Aurelia The War Leader, and proceeds draft a Boros charm over it because he thought it was better, within seconds the entire store knows about it, like literally 80+ people going "WTF?" Reported for exploitation imo. Jokes aside, you got some real jerks at your store. I would have handed it back and made him take it, then traded 2 Groves for it later :D Yeah, my store, MOST people would double check it was intentional. There's a few dicks, but mostly they'd want to be sure. Yea our local is mostly creepy douche bags in their late 30s fresh out of a bad movie
Mine smells good and even has female customers.
Actually, they even have a free basket of travel size deoderant in the men's room. They try to break the stereotype, as do a fair number of the local geeks.
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My local scene is a group of normal people who enjoy magic, a group of people who take magic a little too seriously (but actually just terrible at the game), a group of people who try to live vicariously through magic (through EDH), and a group of people who the first group just want to punch on a nightly (FMN) basis.
It's pretty cool all things considered cause its just like high school social groups only played out around Magic. We try to help little kids and new players just to get everyone feeling good.
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Was testing my BUG Delver build at the local store to see if I like it more than RUG. If there's a downswing in Supreme Verdict then I wouldn't be too embarrassed to sleeve up Delvers for a bigger-than-FNM level Standard event.
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I've been reading some confusing lines in articles today, so I figured I'd come here to clear up my confusion. If I have a creature with Evolve, and play a creature with greater power AND greater toughness, does Evolve trigger twice? I think no, but I'm reading some things that imply I'm wrong.
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no because the trigger says "power or toughness". So it would trigger on either of those not both.
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On February 04 2013 22:21 Salivanth wrote:
I've been reading some confusing lines in articles today, so I figured I'd come here to clear up my confusion. If I have a creature with Evolve, and play a creature with greater power AND greater toughness, does Evolve trigger twice? I think no, but I'm reading some things that imply I'm wrong.
No, the game sees that a creature entered satisfies the condition of greater power or greater toughness, so it puts the evolve trigger on the stack.
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Anyone looking to trade?
HAVE
Stomping Ground
Duskmantle Seer
Inquisition of Kozilek
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Golgari Grave-Troll
Enter the Infinite
Merciless Eviction
Sylvan Primordial
Immortal Servitude
Realmwright
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WANT
Pristine Angel
Pariah's Shield
Jace, Architect of Thought
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Mind Grind
Consuming Aberration
Nightveil Specter
Undercity Plague
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EPT
