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On January 31 2013 03:17 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 01:38 Shotcoder wrote:On January 31 2013 00:58 Judicator wrote:On January 31 2013 00:48 Shotcoder wrote:On January 31 2013 00:14 Judicator wrote:
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns. That's kind of what I was arguing(on the play vs on the draw), but on the play having them go something like champion and you follow up with this has to feel somewhat good, everything is a turn slower meaning they get 1 less trigger on Hellrider, 1 less attack from a hasty dude. I see it as a huge play on the play. But you're also looking at nut draws, and to be honest if you landed this turn 2 on the play, followed by something like a counter or spot removal on 3, then supreme verdict on 4 I think that immediately seals the deal. They have an empty board and they cant turn their dudes sideways as quickly afterward which also give your walkers more protection. Not a 4 of by any means but I don't think writing it off is fair either. Not sure where you are getting feeling good from on the play from. If their line is turn 1 champion, then I would rather just kill the Champion on turn 2 than mess around with a Obedience. It's good against Lightning Mauler draws, but so is Slip, so not sure where this comes in. I am not looking at nut draws, I am looking at common situations. 1 drop to 2 drop isn't uncommon, 2 drop into 3 drop isn't uncommon, if you want to say 1 to 2 to 3 drop curve out is rare, then sure. Blind Obedience doesn't do that much in those situations and the Extort trigger is just straight pointless if they have a Thalia out. Thinking about the card some more, its probably more useful against Ghost Council than any aggro match up. Why would you just kill it on turn two when you have access to slip? Like I don't understand the justification of slipping on t2 when he plays marauder when you could just play it EOT turn 1 and play this turn 2 and shut him out almost completely. ? If his line is Champion T1, he's more likely to play something on turn 2, with the Champion trigger on the stack. If he doesn't I do it eot and just take the 1 and buys me an extra turn. Just safer all the way around to kill it on his turn. When I say turn x, I meant the player on the play unless otherwise stated. In either case, Blind Obedience isn't that great. As for the diversity of cards for spot removal to handle, that's why you need to keep an eye on the meta.
How is it any safer? He's tapped out in both situations...Why would you sandbag the removal spell his EOT1 when you can have mana open turn two? or play Blind Obedience? I really don't see the point of being inefficient with your mana.
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He might try to play mauler over zealot. Thats reason enough for me. Mana efficiency matters more on 2 to 3, not so much 1 to 2. I am more likely to kill 2 things on 3 than I am on 2 solely based on the cards being played on those turns.
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On January 31 2013 04:22 Judicator wrote:
He might try to play mauler over zealot. Thats reason enough for me. Mana efficiency matters more on 2 to 3, not so much 1 to 2. I am more likely to kill 2 things on 3 than I am on 2 solely based on the cards being played on those turns.
what does it matter if he plays mauler or zealot? if you kill the champion his EOT he still doesnt get the +1 counter and you still have mana open to ultimate price or whatever the zealot. I don't get it at all.
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On January 31 2013 04:46 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 04:22 Judicator wrote:
He might try to play mauler over zealot. Thats reason enough for me. Mana efficiency matters more on 2 to 3, not so much 1 to 2. I am more likely to kill 2 things on 3 than I am on 2 solely based on the cards being played on those turns. what does it matter if he plays mauler or zealot? if you kill the champion his EOT he still doesnt get the +1 counter and you still have mana open to ultimate price or whatever the zealot. I don't get it at all.
Leaving champion alive may convince him to play mauler, and in response you can kill the champion to save yourself tons of damage. If you killed the champion on sight, he would then just play zealot (hypothetically) and still bash you.
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On January 31 2013 04:55 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 04:46 Shotcoder wrote:On January 31 2013 04:22 Judicator wrote:
He might try to play mauler over zealot. Thats reason enough for me. Mana efficiency matters more on 2 to 3, not so much 1 to 2. I am more likely to kill 2 things on 3 than I am on 2 solely based on the cards being played on those turns. what does it matter if he plays mauler or zealot? if you kill the champion his EOT he still doesnt get the +1 counter and you still have mana open to ultimate price or whatever the zealot. I don't get it at all. Leaving champion alive may convince him to play mauler, and in response you can kill the champion to save yourself tons of damage. If you killed the champion on sight, he would then just play zealot (hypothetically) and still bash you.
The lines work out better and puts the aggro player in an awkward position. Like theoretically, he can't kill me from 20 with 1 low drop creature, he usually wants 2 I just want those 2 to both tap him out of Boros Charm range and be a decent creature like a Paladin.
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Does anyone else feel like Restoration Angel is the defining card of the format? And does this only annoy me? I just want to play BUG but Angel too good 
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On January 31 2013 15:51 slyboogie wrote:Does anyone else feel like Restoration Angel is the defining card of the format? And does this only annoy me? I just want to play BUG but Angel too good
Seems like it would be a real pain in the ass mixed with a Mark of Mutiny.
Or is there something else it's good for that I'm not seeing? Besides re-triggering enter the battlefields?
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On January 31 2013 15:55 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 15:51 slyboogie wrote:Does anyone else feel like Restoration Angel is the defining card of the format? And does this only annoy me? I just want to play BUG but Angel too good Seems like it would be a real pain in the ass mixed with a Mark of Mutiny. Or is there something else it's good for that I'm not seeing? Besides re-triggering enter the battlefields?
It's just an excellent card. First, it has an evasive 3 power. Second, it has a big butt to dodge Red burn spells. Thirdly, she will almost always net you more than a 3/4 flyer by virtue of her ability: blanking removal, swinging with Geist, rebuying ETB trigger. And lastly, she can be played at instant speed. Why? I dunno. But if you don't know how to play against Restoration Angel, it is both obvious and unfortunate.
Edit: I forgot to include that she's 4cmc with ONE mana symbol. Ugh, I'm gonna go puke on some Dissipates.
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On January 31 2013 16:02 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 15:55 JingleHell wrote:On January 31 2013 15:51 slyboogie wrote:Does anyone else feel like Restoration Angel is the defining card of the format? And does this only annoy me? I just want to play BUG but Angel too good Seems like it would be a real pain in the ass mixed with a Mark of Mutiny. Or is there something else it's good for that I'm not seeing? Besides re-triggering enter the battlefields? It's just an excellent card. First, it has an evasive 3 power. Second, it has a big butt to dodge Red burn spells. Thirdly, she will almost always net you more than a 3/4 flyer by virtue of her ability: blanking removal, swinging with Geist, rebuying ETB trigger. And lastly, she can be played at instant speed. Why? I dunno. But if you don't know how to play against Restoration Angel, it is both obvious and unfortunate. Edit: I forgot to include that she's 4cmc with ONE mana symbol. Ugh, I'm gonna go puke on some Dissipates.
I knew there had to be something that had more absurdity for cost than my beloved Vampire Nighthawks.
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Resto angel is the only reason I want to play white mana in this format.
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Dear Jund decks, play Rakdo's Return, it really is your best card against Esper.
Edit:
Played a guy who called my deck gay and boring but good, really courteous about it but he felt like he was watching paint dry.
Edit 2:
I find it hilarious that I have come full circle as a deck builder since over a year ago with Innistrad's launch. The more I think about the Kessig mid range decks, the more miserable I feel about it, and I know that there's a Delver/Tempo deck somewhere lurking with Geist.
Just briefly since I don't want to go into details right now...
So the problem with Kessig decks is this from the 2 competent pilots (maybe?) I ran into, if he goes Farseek turn 2 on the play I am like 90% dead to most turn 3 Huntmaster plays (my out is a miracle Terminus for all practical reasons). He goes on Farseek on the draw, it's still a sticky situation but I can arguably put him on a Rakdos Return/Zealous Conscripts as the only outs, not great since either line usually results in a dead me. Now Kessig makes the match up trickier since its the one card that can threaten my lifepoints and PWs for "free". Need to brood on this some more and see what I can do, but there's a surprisingly number of dead cards for Esper UNLESS the opponent doesn't play around certain cards.
For lack of a better analogy, its like the Esper mirrors where whoever blinks first by tapping for a big spell on their own turn usually loses, except Kessig makes Esper blink first while holding a gun to your head.
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Kessig Wolf Run really is incredibly good. It's too bad that Esper doesn't have the mana stability to spring for Ghost Quarters, given that it's already a three-color deck with 4 colorless lands I wish I could help you, but honestly, I tend not to run into competent midrange pilots.
And yes, Rakdos's Return is great. I don't see why people play as few as they do. It's one of the best cards in your deck against control, and in testing it, I've found it incredibly awesome in midrange vs. midrange battles too.
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I board in quarters in as spells and the 4th drownyards in the board as well.
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Interesting. If it's not too much trouble, could I get your Esper list? You seem like a pretty good player, and you have some interesting ideas that are different from mine.
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Been throwing about ideas, since I like building decks more than playing. What about Borzhov(WRB) Control?
You get access to Rakdos Return, Terminus, Olivia, Lingering Souls, Orzhov Keyrune, Assemble the Legion, Aurelia's Fury, and a plethora of removal. I just don't know where you get your card advantage without playing things like Lilianna.
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Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR.
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On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR.
I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper.
I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens.
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Actually, if you're playing black and red, you can play Dreadbore. In fact, I see no reason why you wouldn't run 4 Dreadbores with WBR control.
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On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens.
Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk.
Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings.
It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now.
As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups.
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On February 02 2013 00:55 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 18:02 Shotcoder wrote:On February 01 2013 16:17 Salivanth wrote:
Dunno about the deck idea, but I ADORE the term "Borzhov" and from now on will use it to designate WBR. I think it would do more than fair against aggro and midrange decks, it's just the control decks I feel it would have the issue. Which might be where lilianna comes in. I mean Lingering souls is only a small issue for Esper. I guess a resolved Assemble the LEgion essentially wins the game but the issue is playing threats that would give you the opening for that. Because the fact they would just get so much card advantage off their planeswalkers is a huge issue since the only ways to interact with them would be O-ring or soul tokens. Assemble the Legion is too slow against Memory Adept. Might be ok on the play, but still suffers from the same problem that if you tap out for it and get it countered, you are behind, it's just a shittier 5 drop than the PWs and Thragtusk. Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, even in the Esper match up where I really don't care much for it. Sorin is probably a better threat than Liliana and Liliana lines are kind of all in lines due to the discard, aka you aren't really gaining real advantage until you ultimate even if you pitch Lingerings. It's not a bad idea, just losing Supreme Verdict access is a big deal right now. As for my Esper list, it's posted somewhere earlier in this thread, there's about a 3 card difference in the mainboard iirc and the sideboard is built for my tastes, like a 5 card difference I think. Nothing game breaking, but shifts some match-ups.
Losing SV isn't quite as bad when you consider you have access to Pillar and (more) spot removal so you can kill T1 mana dorks and set back those decks a turn, T4 you can Dreadbore Paladin/whatever then Terminus if necessary.
Not to mention this kind of deck is perfect for Blind Obedience and Obzedat, 2 of my favorite cards in the set.
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EPT
