|
On January 30 2013 11:31 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
in terms of control decks, whats really good right now for standard? esper walker control? bant?
Its been a while since I've played magic.
Blind Obedience + Board wipers.
I now officially understand Terminus. Longest game ever, stupid fucking card, along with all that horse shit.
You haven't suffered until you've played aggro vs a deck that extorts you to death without ever putting a creature in the red zone. If you see blind obedience and you're playing aggro, fucking scoop that shit and save yourself the painful sight of actually seeing more than 15 cards in a damn game.
Fucking bullshit.
In all seriousness, great learning experience, but worst game ever. I ended up throwing all my burns at him in a desperate bid to get him back below 20 life right before I died.
|
A lot depends on opponents and cards avaiable, as of now I have no chance to build a T1 deck but maximizing efficiency with your pool and metagaming/playtesting against potential opponents helps a lot. I've got way more out of stuff like Golgari Charm than I should due what others play here, I think the regen part is least used for me at the moment due all the otherwise hard to deal with enchantments and weaker tokens that just sizzle away, making it more powerful than it would be if I only faced highly tuned top tier decks.
This occasionally makes me misvalue some cards, so try not to make the same mistake and trade poorly. If you need some not so expensive cards take them on top while trading to other similar price powerhouse of a card.
Bad matchups teach sideboarding, it's not fun to play without one and play next to unwinnable matchup without a chance to tweak your weakest links into something at least somewhat practical.
|
On January 30 2013 13:51 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 12:53 Shotcoder wrote:On January 30 2013 11:31 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
in terms of control decks, whats really good right now for standard? esper walker control? bant?
Its been a while since I've played magic. Expect Esper simply because it has access to 3 sweepers, planeswalkers, Revelation and drownyard. Bant has a decent match up against Esper since an uncountered Thragtusk is just as good as a resolved PWs. Depends on the sideboard honestly. Edit: So I decided to move some cards around to make the aggro match up better, ofc I get 3x Esper lists of some variety right after the other. Then ofc they play their lists like complete noobs. I don't understand why you would represent counter magic for 5 turns then proceed to lose your fucking mind when I activate Drownyard once or even give me the opportunity to trade bad cards like spot removal for good ones.
Wow, you're not having good luck in testing :/ If you ever want to test against a competent Esper, feel free to PM me. I wouldn't call myself good, but I am at least able to avoid being terrible. I honestly don't know how good I am. I used to be pretty decent (Above-average but not Top-8 PTQ level) but I have no idea how far my skills have fallen. I might be "average PTQer" level now, or I could just be "good FNM" level. I dunno.
|
As a newcomer to Magic, where can I go to learn about a lot of the terms you guys are throwing around? I know stuff like mill'ing etc, but trying to read this thread leaves me awfully confused.
|
On January 30 2013 16:20 ReignSupreme. wrote:
As a newcomer to Magic, where can I go to learn about a lot of the terms you guys are throwing around? I know stuff like mill'ing etc, but trying to read this thread leaves me awfully confused.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Main_Page
It's pretty complete from what I've seen, even has a bunch of the lore stuff in it.
|
On January 30 2013 14:52 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 11:31 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
in terms of control decks, whats really good right now for standard? esper walker control? bant?
Its been a while since I've played magic. Blind Obedience + Board wipers. I now officially understand Terminus. Longest game ever, stupid fucking card, along with all that horse shit. You haven't suffered until you've played aggro vs a deck that extorts you to death without ever putting a creature in the red zone. If you see blind obedience and you're playing aggro, fucking scoop that shit and save yourself the painful sight of actually seeing more than 15 cards in a damn game. Fucking bullshit. In all seriousness, great learning experience, but worst game ever. I ended up throwing all my burns at him in a desperate bid to get him back below 20 life right before I died.
Hmm. Maybe I should try taking out some of my anti-aggro stuff and put a couple of Blind Obedience in the board as an anti-aggro measure. The ability to gain life and completely shut down haste is a pretty appealing combination, considering that vs. all varieties of red aggro, the haste creatures tend to be my biggest concern.
My gut feeling says it's too cute, but maybe it could work. Has anybody tried this in Esper yet?
|
On January 30 2013 17:10 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 14:52 JingleHell wrote:On January 30 2013 11:31 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
in terms of control decks, whats really good right now for standard? esper walker control? bant?
Its been a while since I've played magic. Blind Obedience + Board wipers. I now officially understand Terminus. Longest game ever, stupid fucking card, along with all that horse shit. You haven't suffered until you've played aggro vs a deck that extorts you to death without ever putting a creature in the red zone. If you see blind obedience and you're playing aggro, fucking scoop that shit and save yourself the painful sight of actually seeing more than 15 cards in a damn game. Fucking bullshit. In all seriousness, great learning experience, but worst game ever. I ended up throwing all my burns at him in a desperate bid to get him back below 20 life right before I died. Hmm. Maybe I should try taking out some of my anti-aggro stuff and put a couple of Blind Obedience in the board as an anti-aggro measure. The ability to gain life and completely shut down haste is a pretty appealing combination, considering that vs. all varieties of red aggro, the haste creatures tend to be my biggest concern. My gut feeling says it's too cute, but maybe it could work. Has anybody tried this in Esper yet?
As a hose to decks that run multiple copies haste creatures it does seem to have some potential, although the extort just seems to be win more; if they have a decent hand all your early mana will be going toward digging/stabilizing, and if you have managed to stabilize the extra life gain does not seem to be too relevant; although going back to the first point if you've stabilized the board at a low life point haste creatures are one of the ways aggro can put you back in the hot seat.
Edit:
I've been testing B/G aggro for the past week, and in control match ups one of the best ways to close out a game is saving a Mangler/Strangleroot to pick up all the stray Rancors after a board wipe.
|
Yeah, you're right. And when I pretend Blind Obedience reads "Creatures with haste don't have haste anymore" I realise it's not really worth the slots. I'd rather just have instant-speed removal.
|
There isn't too much great instant speed removal in standard though. Especially if you want to be able to deal with all of these:
Falkenrath Aristocrat, Hellrider, Thundermaw Hellkite, Archwing Dragon, Dreg Mangler, Strangleroot Geist
Catch-all destroy effects like Murder have their issues with Aristocrat and Geist, as well as Mangler to some extent, while being expensive. Ultimate Price works fine against the whole mono red cast, but is no good against the black and green stuff. Tragic Slip is awesome against Aristocrat, but bad against the rest. Damage spells like Searing Spear fail against the big ones. Exile effects are extremely expensive, there is nothing comparable to Path to Exile. And most of these spells are dead against decks that aren't aggro.
Blind Obedience has the advantage that it affects every single of the haste creatures, and it sticks around. Mono Red and Red/Black have no way to remove it at all, though Green/Black can still use Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. Not saying it's actually a great card, I have no idea about that, but it definitely doesn't seem like that card is strictly worse than removal.
|
On January 30 2013 21:05 spinesheath wrote:
There isn't too much great instant speed removal in standard though. Especially if you want to be able to deal with all of these:
Falkenrath Aristocrat, Hellrider, Thundermaw Hellkite, Archwing Dragon, Dreg Mangler, Strangleroot Geist
Catch-all destroy effects like Murder have their issues with Aristocrat and Geist, as well as Mangler to some extent, while being expensive. Ultimate Price works fine against the whole mono red cast, but is no good against the black and green stuff. Tragic Slip is awesome against Aristocrat, but bad against the rest. Damage spells like Searing Spear fail against the big ones. Exile effects are extremely expensive, there is nothing comparable to Path to Exile. And most of these spells are dead against decks that aren't aggro.
Blind Obedience has the advantage that it affects every single of the haste creatures, and it sticks around. Mono Red and Red/Black have no way to remove it at all, though Green/Black can still use Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. Not saying it's actually a great card, I have no idea about that, but it definitely doesn't seem like that card is strictly worse than removal.
On the play it seems a lot strong than on the draw but the fact is, that even without counters or removal it delays the game at least 1 turn because of the fact they have to come in tapped. That 1 turn is at least one card that could be a sweeper or one more activation of drownyard. It's a worthy card and I think it's strong enough to be played for sure.
|
Hmm. You guys make some good points. When my internet stops being an ass, I'll try putting a pair in my MWS sideboard and see how it goes.
|
Another potential upside is that you can cast it before the threats are out, possibly smoothing out your curve. It's also a big relief when you can wipe the board and be sure that you won't eat 5 damage from a Thundermaw while tapped out.
|
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns.
|
On January 30 2013 16:20 ReignSupreme. wrote:
As a newcomer to Magic, where can I go to learn about a lot of the terms you guys are throwing around? I know stuff like mill'ing etc, but trying to read this thread leaves me awfully confused.
I read the Magic Academy articles, and it covered a lot of this stuff. I'm a newbie too.
Oh, and for the record, I found a way to get more out of my Abrupt Decay foil by trading, that probably wouldn't make most of you cry.
Traded it for 3 non-foil versions of itself, and a couple other cards.
|
On January 31 2013 00:14 Judicator wrote:
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns.
That's kind of what I was arguing(on the play vs on the draw), but on the play having them go something like champion and you follow up with this has to feel somewhat good, everything is a turn slower meaning they get 1 less trigger on Hellrider, 1 less attack from a hasty dude. I see it as a huge play on the play.
But you're also looking at nut draws, and to be honest if you landed this turn 2 on the play, followed by something like a counter or spot removal on 3, then supreme verdict on 4 I think that immediately seals the deal. They have an empty board and they cant turn their dudes sideways as quickly afterward which also give your walkers more protection. Not a 4 of by any means but I don't think writing it off is fair either.
|
On January 31 2013 00:48 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:14 Judicator wrote:
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns. That's kind of what I was arguing(on the play vs on the draw), but on the play having them go something like champion and you follow up with this has to feel somewhat good, everything is a turn slower meaning they get 1 less trigger on Hellrider, 1 less attack from a hasty dude. I see it as a huge play on the play. But you're also looking at nut draws, and to be honest if you landed this turn 2 on the play, followed by something like a counter or spot removal on 3, then supreme verdict on 4 I think that immediately seals the deal. They have an empty board and they cant turn their dudes sideways as quickly afterward which also give your walkers more protection. Not a 4 of by any means but I don't think writing it off is fair either.
Not sure where you are getting feeling good from on the play from. If their line is turn 1 champion, then I would rather just kill the Champion on turn 2 than mess around with a Obedience. It's good against Lightning Mauler draws, but so is Slip, so not sure where this comes in.
I am not looking at nut draws, I am looking at common situations. 1 drop to 2 drop isn't uncommon, 2 drop into 3 drop isn't uncommon, if you want to say 1 to 2 to 3 drop curve out is rare, then sure. Blind Obedience doesn't do that much in those situations and the Extort trigger is just straight pointless if they have a Thalia out.
Thinking about the card some more, its probably more useful against Ghost Council than any aggro match up.
|
On January 31 2013 00:58 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:48 Shotcoder wrote:On January 31 2013 00:14 Judicator wrote:
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns. That's kind of what I was arguing(on the play vs on the draw), but on the play having them go something like champion and you follow up with this has to feel somewhat good, everything is a turn slower meaning they get 1 less trigger on Hellrider, 1 less attack from a hasty dude. I see it as a huge play on the play. But you're also looking at nut draws, and to be honest if you landed this turn 2 on the play, followed by something like a counter or spot removal on 3, then supreme verdict on 4 I think that immediately seals the deal. They have an empty board and they cant turn their dudes sideways as quickly afterward which also give your walkers more protection. Not a 4 of by any means but I don't think writing it off is fair either. Not sure where you are getting feeling good from on the play from. If their line is turn 1 champion, then I would rather just kill the Champion on turn 2 than mess around with a Obedience. It's good against Lightning Mauler draws, but so is Slip, so not sure where this comes in. I am not looking at nut draws, I am looking at common situations. 1 drop to 2 drop isn't uncommon, 2 drop into 3 drop isn't uncommon, if you want to say 1 to 2 to 3 drop curve out is rare, then sure. Blind Obedience doesn't do that much in those situations and the Extort trigger is just straight pointless if they have a Thalia out. Thinking about the card some more, its probably more useful against Ghost Council than any aggro match up.
Why would you just kill it on turn two when you have access to slip? Like I don't understand the justification of slipping on t2 when he plays marauder when you could just play it EOT turn 1 and play this turn 2 and shut him out almost completely.
|
On January 31 2013 01:38 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 00:58 Judicator wrote:On January 31 2013 00:48 Shotcoder wrote:On January 31 2013 00:14 Judicator wrote:
The problem is just simply deck space, I just don't see Blind Obedience being useful, it runs into the problem of needing it in your opening hand and not wanting to draw multiples (like Leylines, except Leylines were free). Seems too inconsistent in already very quick (# of turns) match up and it still seems terrible on the draw. Turn too late for Ash Zealot, turn 3 is irrelevant if they drop Silverblade, and turn 4 Hellrider still triggers so I don't see the "great" against haste argument.
I also don't see the better line in being on the play either, if I am on the play, I have the option of going into spot removal into slip on turn 3 which pretty much wipes their board and keeps brimstone off face. That gives me the option of playing a Sorin or 4-Jace on turn 4 with them having a creature that probably can't eat a Sorin or 4-Jace without some help (aka just buying me life). Then the game is fairly stable from there where it just depends more or less on who has more gas for the next 2 turns. That's kind of what I was arguing(on the play vs on the draw), but on the play having them go something like champion and you follow up with this has to feel somewhat good, everything is a turn slower meaning they get 1 less trigger on Hellrider, 1 less attack from a hasty dude. I see it as a huge play on the play. But you're also looking at nut draws, and to be honest if you landed this turn 2 on the play, followed by something like a counter or spot removal on 3, then supreme verdict on 4 I think that immediately seals the deal. They have an empty board and they cant turn their dudes sideways as quickly afterward which also give your walkers more protection. Not a 4 of by any means but I don't think writing it off is fair either. Not sure where you are getting feeling good from on the play from. If their line is turn 1 champion, then I would rather just kill the Champion on turn 2 than mess around with a Obedience. It's good against Lightning Mauler draws, but so is Slip, so not sure where this comes in. I am not looking at nut draws, I am looking at common situations. 1 drop to 2 drop isn't uncommon, 2 drop into 3 drop isn't uncommon, if you want to say 1 to 2 to 3 drop curve out is rare, then sure. Blind Obedience doesn't do that much in those situations and the Extort trigger is just straight pointless if they have a Thalia out. Thinking about the card some more, its probably more useful against Ghost Council than any aggro match up. Why would you just kill it on turn two when you have access to slip? Like I don't understand the justification of slipping on t2 when he plays marauder when you could just play it EOT turn 1 and play this turn 2 and shut him out almost completely.
? If his line is Champion T1, he's more likely to play something on turn 2, with the Champion trigger on the stack. If he doesn't I do it eot and just take the 1 and buys me an extra turn. Just safer all the way around to kill it on his turn.
When I say turn x, I meant the player on the play unless otherwise stated. In either case, Blind Obedience isn't that great.
As for the diversity of cards for spot removal to handle, that's why you need to keep an eye on the meta.
|
I'd really only consider blind obedience on the play, and at least you get multiples off extort. Will have to see if the agro matchup is that bad for esper to dedicate sideboard slots to it, though.
In other news, I'm trying to get
MUST
BE
NICE
on a custom playmat. Anyone have recommendations for quality playmat makers? Still have to come up with a design, but figure I'll ask so I know what's up when I'm ready to submit a design.
|
On January 31 2013 03:25 Risen wrote:
I'd really only consider blind obedience on the play, and at least you get multiples off extort. Will have to see if the agro matchup is that bad for esper to dedicate sideboard slots to it, though.
In other news, I'm trying to get
MUST
BE
NICE
on a custom playmat. Anyone have recommendations for quality playmat makers? Still have to come up with a design, but figure I'll ask so I know what's up when I'm ready to submit a design.
Aggro match up is fairly even for my list (which has changed since the last time I posted it).
I used erolj.com for my gundam wing endless waltz playmat, after 2 years of consistent weekly use, the edges are still good with minimal fraying. Color is slightly faded but that's expected and maybe more because that my image is primarily black in color so it shows up more than a lighter background. It's like if someone turned up the brightness by a notch on the original picture.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
