EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 288
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:11 JingleHell wrote: Actually, thinking about it, I guess Golgari Charm is probably preferable to any of those options, since I can tap 2 for all my creatures to not get filleted. Assuming, of course, that only the ones who get saved by Regeneration get tapped in the process? Also instant, letting me deny shenanigans that happen outside my turn? Yes, Regeneration is like a shield that only gets used up if the creature actually dies. By the way, my point against Disentomb is that it often just sits in your hand and does nothing (no creatures in the graveyard, or only creatures that your enemy can deal with anyways - that's how they got there after all). The same thing can be said against return to the battlefield effects though... so I should have mentioned self mill together with that :p Golgari charm is a good card and even occasionally played in some very competitive decks (in the sideboard though). You never want to many of those though, since it can just be a dead card as well. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:18 Judicator wrote: Terminus is a card people. Unless they plan to follow it up with nothing but tokens or burns, how does it affect most people? I'm not sure I get the logic behind it. If they're up against a creature heavy aggro deck, that player will get back into creatures fairly quickly, and just have a fuckton of mana to load the field up. If they're up against a control deck, it's already built to play that game. If they're up against a midrange deck, it's going to have options for just about any scenario. In fact, it seems like it would only be useful in conjunction with "Search your library for X", or "Shuffle your Library", right? I mean, I'm just not understanding where the real value comes from with a deck designed to combo specifically by forcing people to play to their deck's strength with almost unlimited mana available. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
If you play 3 creatures, and I cast terminus, your hand now looks pretty empty, and you don't have any creatures in play. My hand is still nice and full, and I can counter any creatures you play. Plus, I probably have a planeswalker in play generating a ton of advantage, and since my deck probably plays more lands than yours (a common feature of control decks), I probably have more land in play as well. Plus I'm playing Sphinxes revelation, which your deck can basically never beat  . Watch LSV's latest video (on channelfireball.com) to see how terminus and supreme verdict work in control decks. Putting creatures on the bottom is BETTER than destroying them because you can't regenerate or get from your graveyard any creatures on the bottom of your library. Basically, creature heavy aggro decks can't possibly come into as many creatures as fast as planeswalker and draw heavy control decks can come into answers once the board is clear. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:45 Sn0_Man wrote: Nonono jingle, thats not how it works. If you play 3 creatures, and I cast terminus, your hand now looks pretty empty, and you don't have any creatures in play. My hand is still nice and full, and I can counter any creatures you play. Plus, I probably have a planeswalker in play generating a ton of advantage, and since my deck probably plays more lands than yours (a common feature of control decks), I probably have more land in play as well. Plus I'm playing Sphinxes revelation, which your deck can basically never beat . Watch LSV's latest video (on channelfireball.com) to see how terminus and supreme verdict work in control decks. Putting creatures on the bottom is BETTER than destroying them because you can't regenerate or get from your graveyard any creatures on the bottom of your library. Basically, creature heavy aggro decks can't possibly come into as many creatures as fast as planeswalker and draw heavy control decks can come into answers once the board is clear. Mwonvuli Beast Tracker in sideboard, got it. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:55 JingleHell wrote: Mwonvuli Beast Tracker in sideboard, got it. Wont do much. I will explain later. Cant do this on a phone keyboard. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:12 Judicator wrote: Wont do much. I will explain later. Cant do this on a phone keyboard. Well, it seems like unless they topdeck Terminus with about 14 mana in play, Aurelia, and something fat with haste, so that they can put a REALLY aggressive clock on you, that shuffle is going to undo a lot of the damage, and that's assuming you don't have combat tricks in hand for spot removal. Also, are we talking a combination that literally every deck needs to be ready to handle, or are we talking GP type shit? Seems like there's some way to handle it, or it would be banned, so there's a catch here. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:37 JingleHell wrote: Unless they plan to follow it up with nothing but tokens or burns, how does it affect most people? I'm not sure I get the logic behind it. If they're up against a creature heavy aggro deck, that player will get back into creatures fairly quickly, and just have a fuckton of mana to load the field up. If they're up against a control deck, it's already built to play that game. If they're up against a midrange deck, it's going to have options for just about any scenario. In fact, it seems like it would only be useful in conjunction with "Search your library for X", or "Shuffle your Library", right? I mean, I'm just not understanding where the real value comes from with a deck designed to combo specifically by forcing people to play to their deck's strength with almost unlimited mana available. Magic is a game, all games have rules and limitations. In MtG, what are your limitations? Well, you can't have less than 60 cards in your deck, you can only cast spells in your hand, you can't act during your opponent's turn, you only draw one card a turn and you can only play one land a turn. So, from this perspective, cards, time and mana are your resources. For this reason, cards that violate these rules are especially powerful - dangerous from a game and design stand point. This is why a lot of the things you presume are not true. The heavy Aggro deck will not have a fuckton of creatures because they only draw 1 card a turn. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:19 JingleHell wrote: Well, it seems like unless they topdeck Terminus with about 14 mana in play, Aurelia, and something fat with haste, so that they can put a REALLY aggressive clock on you, that shuffle is going to undo a lot of the damage, and that's assuming you don't have combat tricks in hand for spot removal. Also, are we talking a combination that literally every deck needs to be ready to handle, or are we talking GP type shit? Seems like there's some way to handle it, or it would be banned, so there's a catch here. The catch here is that Terminus is 6 mana. The game rotates around the concept of lands or more accurately the ability to play only 1 land per turn without outside help. In a deck like yours, the shorter the game (or the fewer lands in play for a control player), better quality of your cards are, or effectiveness if you want to think about it like that. The longer the game, your cards don't mean as much to opposing player. Typically, the critical turns are where Terminus/Verdict resolves. The crux of the match up relies on how well a control player can fend off your threats until a control player starts playing cards that won't kill you right away, but you have already lost because you lose the ability to actually threaten the opposing player's life points in a timely manner. The key word is timely and that's why Tracker doesn't do anything. For example, you play Tracker, I play anything of relevance, Jace/Sorin/Tamiyo/Ghost Council/etc. then you are in a very bad situation. This is why I told you to just go play test. You'll notice things like this after a few games. As for the level of competition you are expecting, only you can answer that. Good decks get copied (not necessarily played well) and you need to be at the very least be able to handle some of the popular decks. I am only speaking from a control player's perspective because that's all I really play consistently. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:46 Judicator wrote: The catch here is that Terminus is 6 mana. The game rotates around the concept of lands or more accurately the ability to play only 1 land per turn without outside help. In a deck like yours, the shorter the game (or the fewer lands in play for a control player), better quality of your cards are, or effectiveness if you want to think about it like that. The longer the game, your cards don't mean as much to opposing player. Typically, the critical turns are where Terminus/Verdict resolves. The crux of the match up relies on how well a control player can fend off your threats until a control player starts playing cards that won't kill you right away, but you have already lost because you lose the ability to actually threaten the opposing player's life points in a timely manner. The key word is timely and that's why Tracker doesn't do anything. For example, you play Tracker, I play anything of relevance, Jace/Sorin/Tamiyo/Ghost Council/etc. then you are in a very bad situation. This is why I told you to just go play test. You'll notice things like this after a few games. As for the level of competition you are expecting, only you can answer that. Good decks get copied (not necessarily played well) and you need to be at the very least be able to handle some of the popular decks. I am only speaking from a control player's perspective because that's all I really play consistently. So basically, kill them before they combo, in a situation where I'm in the aggro seat, unless they choose to miracle it too early to combo it, at which point it turns into a weird slugging match? I guess that's the vulnerability of a midrange? You have to be prepared to be on offense and defense, depending on the opposing deck? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:46 Judicator wrote:until a control player starts playing cards that won't kill you right away, but you have already lost because you lose the ability to actually threaten the opposing player's life points in a timely manner. The key word is timely and that's why Tracker doesn't do anything This is basically everything I was thinking but couldn't say very eloquently. Cards exist in standard that remove any hope of a deck like yours winning, without doing anything to actually kill you. Irrespective of the fact that you can draw more creatures, you simply can never beat a terminus (or supreme verdict). Not that your deck isn't cool/fun, and obviously you don't have to play against top tier decks all the time, but please understand that you need a source of card advantage to win with a deck this speed, and you simply have no reliable ways to get a "2 for 1" or better. EDIT: On January 30 2013 07:53 JingleHell wrote: I guess that's the vulnerability of a midrange? You have to be prepared to be on offense and defense, depending on the opposing deck? Yes, basically. For midrange to be good you need to: Be almost as fast as aggro decks, but have more card advantage, AND Be either way, way faster then control decks (unlikely because then aggro is just better) OR have very comparable card advantage while being reasonably faster. The latter especially is often very hard to achieve. I think the key concept here is Card Advantage. | ||
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EMIYA
United States433 Posts
anyways, new sets bring new possibilities as old ones rotate out, and even if opponents copy these decks at your local FNM it doesn't mean you can't beat them with other shit, it just might be more difficult than normal. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
People can have different opinions on what is good or what is bad, but that doesn't take away from the quality of the design of the deck. Also, keep in mind that all this discussion hasn't even accounted for player skill. You notice earlier in the thread I was making fun of new Esper players due to their bone-headed plays that any experienced player wouldn't make and thus changing what otherwise is a close match-up to stupidly one-sided. This is why I kept telling you to go play test instead of just theorycrafting. You need experience more than you need cards right now because that will set you on the path of improvement. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:19 JingleHell wrote: Well, it seems like unless they topdeck Terminus with about 14 mana in play, Aurelia, and something fat with haste, so that they can put a REALLY aggressive clock on you, that shuffle is going to undo a lot of the damage, and that's assuming you don't have combat tricks in hand for spot removal. Also, are we talking a combination that literally every deck needs to be ready to handle, or are we talking GP type shit? Seems like there's some way to handle it, or it would be banned, so there's a catch here. Saying Terminus is bad after your library is shuffled is like saying Supreme Verdict sucks because you have a bunch more creatures in your library. It's like saying creature decks suck, because I have spot removal in my library. It's like saying spells suck, because I have counterspells in my deck. Cards in your library are in no way even close to importance as the cards in your hand. You can't use cards in your library, you can only maybe draw into them. Shuffling negates about 10% of the power of Terminus. If I Terminus your three guys, I have gained card advantage. You should remember that from the Magic Academy articles. It doesn't matter that they aren't in the graveyard. Even if you shuffle, they are as dead to you as the cards in your library. They are not options. You can't play them. You can't do damage with them. Just because you might draw into them lately doesn't negate the effect of Terminus: A card in the hand is far more important than your potential draws from your deck. Supreme Verdict + Terminus + Planeswalkers + spot removal (Aka, Esper) is a combination that every competitive deck needs to be prepared to handle. A casual creature deck that wants to win doesn't need to prepare against that, but it should still have some sort of plan against "Destroy all creatures" effects. However, this doesn't have to be cards. The best plan against a Supreme Verdict / Terminus is this. Vs. controllish White decks, DO NOT PLAY ALL YOUR CREATURES AT ONCE. Save some. When the opponent Verdicts, play more guys then. There are other ways to minimise the effect of Verdict. Undying immediately comes to mind. But the most important thing is to not play your entire hand out into a Supreme Verdict or a Terminus. Try and only have 2 or 3 creatures out at a time: Play only as many as you need to threaten the opponent. Make him destroy something before you play another one. | ||
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
Its been a while since I've played magic. | ||
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On January 30 2013 11:31 MiyaviTeddy wrote: in terms of control decks, whats really good right now for standard? esper walker control? bant? Its been a while since I've played magic. Expect Esper simply because it has access to 3 sweepers, planeswalkers, Revelation and drownyard. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On January 30 2013 12:53 Shotcoder wrote: Expect Esper simply because it has access to 3 sweepers, planeswalkers, Revelation and drownyard. Bant has a decent match up against Esper since an uncountered Thragtusk is just as good as a resolved PWs. Depends on the sideboard honestly. Edit: So I decided to move some cards around to make the aggro match up better, ofc I get 3x Esper lists of some variety right after the other. Then ofc they play their lists like complete noobs. I don't understand why you would represent counter magic for 5 turns then proceed to lose your fucking mind when I activate Drownyard once or even give me the opportunity to trade bad cards like spot removal for good ones. | ||
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