EPTGuild Wars 2 - Page 136
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
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irninja
United States1220 Posts
On April 11 2012 12:47 Nokarot wrote: Vanguard is fine, I think it would be better if any TL person could get in (being allowed to build friendships witin GW2 rather than forcing them to play SC2/LoL/etc,) with a probationary thing going on to weed out any people who don't fit in. But, ultimately, how Vanguard is run doesn't concern me. I'm talking about your try-outs for the main A-team PVP Arena squad. If you're opening the guild to the public and restricting your A-team to "whoever played league of legends with us and theorycrafted GW2 the most," or any other kind of aptitude tests, it's not very inviting. I respect that for structured PVP you have to choose 5 competent people to represent the guild, to climb whatever GW2 PVP ladder exists, but a lot of people will be left out in the process. My ultimate suggestion (I guess I should have gotten this out of the way sooner) is that instead of creating an "A-Team," a separate guild should be made for each squad of 5-7 people. You'd have something like "Team Legacy Vanguard" (PVE and WvW) which everybody is in, and on Arena-specific characters, they'd be in guilds such as "TL Battalion," "TL Assault," "TL Bombardiers" or whatever. Groups of friends can create their own PVP Squad within the Vanguard (instead of an A Team representing the whole teamliquid.net forums) and, if they choose to WvW with those characters, unite under the same banner via Teamspeak or whatever. This would welcome everybody to represent Team Legacy / the Teamliquid.net forums with more freedom. It would complicate things a little, sure, and I know that there are guild benefits that you can level up and whatnot, but ultimately I think it would still be better. If you have an A-Team competing for all the glory and a B, C, D, E and F team either forced to play unranked matches or possibly tank the guilds arena ladder rating, it's not really fun for anyone. This is just my constructive criticism anyway. I know you never asked for it, and I'm not trying to tell you what to do or step on your shoes, I'm just envisioning ways I believe would improve it if I were to consider joining. Ultimately, I'm not asking you to make these changes for me, but for the sake of a fair and inviting teamliquid.net based guild. I respect that you've probably put more work in to this than anyone, but a public guild should have a more lenient hierarchy. Not everybody wants to WvW. My ultimate suggestion (I guess I should have gotten this out of the way sooner) is that instead of creating an "A-Team," a separate guild should be made for each squad of 5-7 people. You'd have something like "Team Legacy Vanguard" (PVE and WvW) which everybody is in, and on Arena-specific characters, they'd be in guilds such as "TL Battalion," "TL Assault," "TL Bombardiers" or whatever. Groups of friends can create their own PVP Squad within the Vanguard (instead of an A Team representing the whole teamliquid.net forums) and, if they choose to WvW with those characters, unite under the same banner via Teamspeak or whatever. When we kicked started this idea in 2010, I must say Nokorat, I had the nearly the same grandeur ideals as you. The general idea was to form multiple guilds, each with differentials in how "hardcore" or "elitist" they may be, let each guild run on its own hierarchy and most importantly - let each members from all facets of the community co-exist. This would have worked perfectly if we were strictly a arena/gvg only guild. We initially started just as such, and quickly learned two things: -Team Liquid is not 100% made up of "nice" people". -Guilds and the "Influence" system was incredibly lucrative to those who can utilize the benefits. With those two things in mind, we started realizing that splitting up the guild was in essence splitting up the community. It created rifts. Example being: Those in group B didn't feel as "important" as those in group A. Or Group C felt they were far more skilled than Group A. With the announcement of the influence system, it compounded the problem. Now with multiple guilds, it would be impossible to achieve the consistent rewards from spending influence with multiple smaller guilds. As a guild member you earn influence on everything you do. that influence is put into a pool that can be spent on permanent guild upgrades (trivial stuff such as guild titles/emblems) and also consumable items. These consumable items are immensely powerful, and effect the entire guild. In essence, if you host a sufficient number of quality members (quality = consistently gaining influence via S-PvP/WvW) you could indefinitely provide a plethora of bonuses to a large group of people. This, in conjunction with getting rid of the "cliques" that were forming within the separate guilds, seemed a perfect solution to a worsening problem. ________________ Now skipping a year later. We realize that by created one larger main guild, we still had a few issues: -Many of us had friends/family whom wishes to play with the guild, or be a part of it. -Many of us had internet/gaming buddies who would not make the interview/application, but still wanted to play with TL. Vanguard is fine, I think it would be better if any TL person could get in (being allowed to build friendships witin GW2 rather than forcing them to play SC2/LoL/etc,) with a probationary thing going on to weed out any people who don't fit in. But, ultimately, how Vanguard is run doesn't concern me. Obviously we could not simply shoo our wives and gaming buddies away. We needed some sort of solution that allowed more leniency in recruitment (see -> free entry) but also kept the integrity and quality of the main guild intact. The guild got together and founded "Legacy Vanguard" to fulfill that role. Initially it was created to allow anyone, friends, family, fans of TL, the like, to join. You simply asked, you were in. What we learned was that in doing so, we ran into the same problem as the TL WoW guild is running to even now (see the TL wow guild thread). Idiots and imbeciles from all over joined, causing a mess in TeamSpeak, the forums, etc. It was then we decided we needed some sort of "firewall" to block the baddies, hence the referral process. All of that said, the main Team Legacy guild still is split into two divisions. Let me explain. The guild runs off a Division system, where we break the guild into 70% Div1 (4/5 raid nights) and 30% Div2 (2/5 raid nights). We use a google document/forum attendance system for guild members to "check-in" or "call-out" for any given raid night during the week, or upcoming weeks for that matter. We've been testing/perfecting this since we started. At any time, I can check the database and know I have 1xx members going to be online on this upcoming xx day. The logistics allow for complex planning with our alliance members, and for the guild members, it's very simple: Show up, or mark yourself off on a raid night via our system. We've embedded the forms into our own website forums to make it doubly easier for guild members to access. Being that the excel/google sheets auto-update and can also export, we can look at them from an "RTS-esque" perspective and plan raids better. This system (simplified) also works perfectly with the structured pvp teams organizing within the guild now. Sounds like a lot of work, but it really isn't. The development was, but now it's working perfectly. As a guild leader teaching other guild leaders this system, we all find that planning WvW raids is far more efficient, and for all guild members - - everyone knows exactly the status of online/offline guild members on their upcoming raids. While you may think this is "over the top" or "needless", you would be surprised the simplicity and positive feedback we've received over it, and how amazing it is to look at a simple spreadsheet and know exactly when your friends/comrades will be online, whether it be for SPvP or WvW. As far as structured PvP. The guild as a whole has a main focus of 5 nights a week WvW. Those that are in the guild for structured PvP know very well that they are exempt from that simple rule. So that argument is null and void if that is any guild member's focus. We have a large contingent focused on just that, and while they will be doing arena near non-stop, they also know they are more than welcome to participate in our raids at anytime as well, as an honored guest if you will, considering on most levels they are probably more apt for PvP. tl; dr So in the end we still have the guild split, but more pertaining to availability rather than skill. The only skill "split" is in terms of TL versus LV. TL using the same strict process we have been since 2010. LV accepting everyone who simply shows some effort in introducing themselves on TS. I always appreciate feedback from those worthy of giving it, so no need to apologize. Just take my 2 cents: Fame and glory in Guild Wars 2 will come in more than just structured PvP. While many will be looking to the e-sports/structured pvp scene for notoriety (and rightfully so) there will many others as well looking and saying: "How is that server doing so well in WvW?" or "Oh crap we just got paired up with the server TL is on". I fully believe having a well-rounded reputation in both scenes is most fruitful in not only increasing our community image (which is already everywhere), but also our developing fiscal ventures. (more on that another time). I've typed enough. I hope some of this makes sense, it's quite fragmented, and poorly edited. It's late and I've had a rough day at work. | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
However, ranked arena matches will be forced to pick 5 people. If there's 15+ people competing for that, it's bound to create some tension. They'll still be free to WvW, yes, but someone like me wants to focus on arena 90% of the time. With so many people, though, I might only get in to 5% of the ranked arena matches, unless both yourself and the system allow multiple groups to play ranked freely, regardless of whether another ranked team is playing. World of Warcraft arena wasn't centered around guilds, but rather individual player-made arena teams. GW1 didn't have that, your whole guild was ranked on the GVG ladder, and only 1 team could play at a time. I assume GW2 would be the same, but maybe not. I can see where I might have been wrong on some points, though. With the influence system, it seems there's only so much you can really do with such a large amount of people, and you don't want to spread that influence out within 4 mini-guilds. I still think there ought to be a better solution, but maybe there isn't. | ||
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
On April 11 2012 13:51 Nokarot wrote: I never truly thought anything was wrong conerning WvW, just Arena PVP. I'm still inclined to believe a lot of people who are available enough to qualify for TL (as opposed to Vanguard) will be lefl out. League of Legends benefits from having more players, a spectator function and several people interested in streaming/watching during any given night. However, ranked arena matches will be forced to pick 5 people. If there's 15+ people competing for that, it's bound to create some tension. They'll still be free to WvW, yes, but someone like me wants to focus on arena 90% of the time. With so many people, though, I might only get in to 5% of the ranked arena matches, unless both yourself and the system allow multiple groups to play ranked freely, regardless of whether another ranked team is playing. World of Warcraft arena wasn't centered around guilds, but rather individual player-made arena teams. GW1 didn't have that, your whole guild was ranked on the GVG ladder, and only 1 team could play at a time. I assume GW2 would be the same, but maybe not. I can see where I might have been wrong on some points, though. With the influence system, it seems there's only so much you can really do with such a large amount of people, and you don't want to spread that influence out within 4 mini-guilds. I still think there ought to be a better solution, but maybe there isn't. Many of us are interested in doing structured as well as WvWvW I know i would definitely be running structured pvp matches with guild-mates hopefully at a decently high level. I can not guarantee the time for our competitive structured only team and still enjoy WvW but that doesn't mean I automatically can't play structured. As far as I know we can have many structured teams going at once with no problem so there shouldn't be issues. | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
I guess now that I think about it, all I'm doing is theorycrafting alternatives "just in case" there is some limiting factor to arena stuff. Maybe there won't be, maybe the in-game system will flawlessly synergize with the goals of the guild. I'm just a worrier. I guess I'll shut up until it becomes a problem, if it ever does. Hopefully it wont. | ||
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petzergling
538 Posts
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1158 Posts
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
On April 11 2012 15:11 petzergling wrote: I hope tl people arent too excited for structured pvp... i have a feeling you are going to be very disappointed if you enjoyed GW1 We know that GW2 pvp is very different from GW1 pvp in terms of the game type. However, in its core it is similar to GW1 with teamwork playing a huge part and well coordinated splits and convergences will make a good team. The position game is something every high level GW1 pvper learns. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
 ). I enjoy PvE much more but world vs world does look like a lot of fun ^_^. | ||
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ydeer1993
United Kingdom569 Posts
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Roggle
United States142 Posts
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petzergling
538 Posts
On April 11 2012 15:51 NoobieOne wrote: We know that GW2 pvp is very different from GW1 pvp in terms of the game type. However, in its core it is similar to GW1 with teamwork playing a huge part and well coordinated splits and convergences will make a good team. The position game is something every high level GW1 pvper learns. the core gameplay of gw2 is much more similar to wow then it is to gw1. the way you "split and converge" in gw1 really doesnt resemble gw2 at all. | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
On April 12 2012 01:14 petzergling wrote: the core gameplay of gw2 is much more similar to wow then it is to gw1. the way you "split and converge" in gw1 really doesnt resemble gw2 at all. Regardless, people who like organized small-scale PVP will gravitate towards it. The reason I prefer arena type stuff over WvW is because I feel it's more about "building a deck" with limited resources (IE 5 players) and coming up with new combinations etc, rather than an open world environment where those with larger numbers are more likely to succeed (even if good tactics can overcome that, it's an advantage/disadvantage I don't personally find entertaining.) It doesn't have to be a copy of GW1 GvG to be enjoyable. | ||
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Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
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Lumi
United States1612 Posts
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ydeer1993
United Kingdom569 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 12 2012 14:21 Lumi wrote: So who else is in the stress test coming up on Friday? Had to sign an NDA for it. not me  . | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
Just saying. | ||
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iKill[ShocK]
Vietnam3530 Posts
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irninja
United States1220 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:46 KillerSOS wrote: I have to say its not really a community guild if you have a referral invite process. Just saying. We tried the whole "invite every joe-blow" concept. It went horribly. I'm sorry, it just did. We had to have some sort of process. | ||
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