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![[image loading]](http://www.civpbeml.org/civ4logo.jpg)
Team B
Ok, this will be the thread for team B, please post your turns in this thread, so we do not get confused with the other team. You may post as much as you like in either thread, but its important we keep the games seperate so there is no confusion.
The rules of this game are identical to the ones posted in the other thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=134970 If you are unsure of them. There will be no rules made against using information from the other team's game as they are impossible to enforce.
Before taking your turn, please double check a few things.
- That you are on Team B - Your name should appear on the roster below. If it does not, do not just go ahead and play, contact me, or look at the other roster to see if you are there instead
- That you are in the right thread - Its very important to keep this clean
- That you are playing as the correct Civ. Remember that you have to select the civ you are supposed to be playing as when you start the game. Team B is England, and therefore you should be playing as England. We don't want to see someone posting as the wrong team.
- That when you PM the next person, you get the right person on your team
Hopefully this will go smoothly, so good luck team B
Roster
Biochemist
nosliw
Lunaticman
Zyphen[p]
Qatol
Dobrev
Lexpar
Keilah
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So once again, it is the dawn of time, and the mighty Teamliquid is ready to build an empire that will go down in the history books as the greatest civilization ever. However this time, they are split. A cruel act of god has seperated teamliquid into different groups, with each group picking up their own banner. How will this change affect the mighty teamliquidians? Will the course of history play out the same way, or will the butterfly effect result in drastic changes? Only time will tell.
![[image loading]](http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3222/civ2q.jpg)
The second group of teamliquidians rally under the banner of the English, they turn to their first great leader, to begin their journey to glory. This great leader's name, is Biochemist.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6rrh9d
(Note: Save files cannot be opened in single player mode, you must open in multiplayer mode or by just double clicking the save file and letting civ load it all up for you)
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Assuming command of the not-so-vast English host, I decided to settle in place at the start so we could get both the gems and the ivory. I recruited a scout from a nearby native village, and discovered a second batch of gems! Looks like we might be able to get an early tech advantage.
![[image loading]](http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3381/civ4screenshot0000.jpg)
A few turns later a second village gives us a map, which reveals even more gems to the southwest. Lots of jungle there though, so perhaps a better third city than second.
![[image loading]](http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3328/civ4screenshot0001h.jpg)
JulyZerg drops by for some afternoon tea, and the roots of a promising friendship are formed. The centuries roll by, but generally not much else happens.
![[image loading]](http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2298/civ4screenshot0002o.jpg)
Our brave warriors discover the edge of the Korean border, and discover that they will soon have a monopoly on gold. My greedy British colonialist/imperialist superiority complex kicks in and I decide we probably won't be good friends after all.
![[image loading]](http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7749/civ4screenshot0003.jpg)
The world as we know it in 3500 BC.
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2589/civ4screenshot0004a.jpg)
Not much happened... worker almost finished, bronze working almost done. I figure we can make a gem mine and then chop the next worker/settler out while getting agriculture for the corn. No fish in range so fishing isn't going to help us at the moment, but there are plenty of options for the next city, although we should wait until copper pops before deciding on a spot. If we take the koreans out with an axe rush, we'll have this whole nice little strip of land to ourselves. Also renamed London to Victoria in honor of our fat founder.
Save:
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/251788/TLB-BC-3500-CivBeyondSwordSave.html
PM'd nosliw
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Wow, good start for us (grassland gems imba?), but that double gold start for Wang Kon (who's FIN) could be really bad news. It's hard to judge from the screenshot, but if we could take him out somewhat early before he consolidates a tech lead, that'd probably be good.
Not a bad leader draw, either.
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Should have renamed the city Gemtopolis, for real. Shame there's no rivers around you, but with financial+gems and [seemingly] owning the end of a peninsula, looks like Team B is off to the right start.
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We absolutely should not be axe rushing Wang. We have double gems and more gems nearby. We even got a peninsula. Just block him from expanding in our direction and then we can fill up our peninsula nicely. An axe rush would just slow down our expansion and get rid of someone who would be a nice trading partner, boosting our tech through the early game. Plus, protective archers are a little bit of a pain. I think we should be settling near those mountains relatively soon to try and keep Wang from taking too much land in our direction. After that, we need to secure those other gems so we can get our tech up and running nicely.
Also, this is a bit of a side tip, but players shouldn't get in the habit of axe rushing too much. It is a bad practice and simply doesn't work on the higher difficulty levels. Even on the lower difficulty levels, it is a huge waste of hammers which need to be put into workers, settlers, libraries, and maybe an early wonder depending on the situation.
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On July 19 2010 01:47 Qatol wrote:
We absolutely should not be axe rushing Wang. We have double gems and more gems nearby. We even got a peninsula. Just block him from expanding in our direction and then we can fill up our peninsula nicely. An axe rush would just slow down our expansion and get rid of someone who would be a nice trading partner, boosting our tech through the early game. I think we should be settling near those mountains relatively soon to try and keep Wang from taking too much land in our direction. After that, we need to secure those other gems so we can get our tech up and running nicely.
These exact thoughts were going through my head, too. Settling quickly in his direction doesn't give us a very nice city right now though, since there's a lot of calendar resources there that are buried in jungle. Maybe there's something nice hidden in that strip of black. Where do you think the best city spot is?
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On July 19 2010 01:56 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 01:47 Qatol wrote:
We absolutely should not be axe rushing Wang. We have double gems and more gems nearby. We even got a peninsula. Just block him from expanding in our direction and then we can fill up our peninsula nicely. An axe rush would just slow down our expansion and get rid of someone who would be a nice trading partner, boosting our tech through the early game. I think we should be settling near those mountains relatively soon to try and keep Wang from taking too much land in our direction. After that, we need to secure those other gems so we can get our tech up and running nicely. These exact thoughts were going through my head, too. Settling quickly in his direction doesn't give us a very nice city right now though, since there's a lot of calendar resources there that are buried in jungle. Maybe there's something nice hidden in that strip of black. Where do you think the best city spot is?
I'm eyeing that rice personally. On the other side, I like the river squares, since that will give us a little health boost to let that city grow some. Since we're already almost done with BW, I guess we could get up a relatively quick IW and uncover some of that green though. I guess the spots I'd settle in right now are 1SE of the spices (near the mountain), which should get us that rice, and 1E of the dye, on the river, which should also give us the sugar (which gives 3 food before plantation). Obviously, that is subject to change based on what is in the black on the east side of the mountains.
Worst case, we wind up with a city which isn't very good for a while, but will secure a lot of land for us. Not the end of the world, especially with our start.
Either way, there is absolutely no need for an axe rush, and I think it will likely wind up hurting us, even if we win.
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hmm quick question. Do I need to be connected to the Internet to play in multiplayer? I got the save, will play today if it doesn't require Internet connection.
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Shouldn't need to. If you just double click the save file it should open up and everything's good to go.
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Don't need internet to play, but you'll need internet to re-upload the save and write a report, of course.
And yeah, you guys have so many gems, rushing for those gold won't really be worth it. If you want the happiness you can always trade him for it, but expanding and gaining the early financial advantage will be better than rushing and having to use your financial cities to catch up.
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Should have gone agriculture first so you could grow with a decent food resource.
BW first means you can't grow efficiently, so you'll have to rely on chopping out the worker worker settler build, make sure your 1st warrior comes back in time to guard the second city location, and expand really fast.
On the plus side, you can axe rush if you find bronze, and Wang Kon is in a decent position to axe rush. The biggest reason not to rush a close opponent is that there's another AI on the other side of you who's going to suck up the land you would have expanded had you rapid expanded. You can always settle the northwest at your leisure, and wang kon's double gold will further fund breakneck expansion.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352842 is the best technical axe/chariot rush guide on the site.
You get a 3rd worker with an axe rush, though, and you're usually better off getting the second worker in the capital while the second city grows to a bit.
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On July 19 2010 05:01 igotmyown wrote:Should have gone agriculture first so you could grow with a decent food resource. BW first means you can't grow efficiently, so you'll have to rely on chopping out the worker worker settler build, make sure your 1st warrior comes back in time to guard the second city location, and expand really fast. On the plus side, you can axe rush if you find bronze, and Wang Kon is in a decent position to axe rush. The biggest reason not to rush a close opponent is that there's another AI on the other side of you who's going to suck up the land you would have expanded had you rapid expanded. You can always settle the northwest at your leisure, and wang kon's double gold will further fund breakneck expansion. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352842 is the best technical axe/chariot rush guide on the site. You get a 3rd worker with an axe rush, though, and you're usually better off getting the second worker in the capital while the second city grows to a bit.
Again I'll say it. An axe rush would be a terrible idea from this position. A chariot rush is even worse (they would have to go through all that jungle and are weaker than axemen when it comes to attacking). We have enough high commerce resources in our area as it is. We should be focusing on blocking Wang from expanding towards us and then we can take the high commerce squares and get our tech going. Heck, even our leader's traits are better suited to expanding rather than rushing. And we will get left behind the civs on other continents if we don't have a trading partner in the early parts of the game. We haven't found anyone other than Wang so far, and he's a pretty good trading partner, especially with early gold. We can take Wang out later in the game when we actually need to take his land. Right now we don't need it and our economy couldn't support the land if we were to take it. An axe rush WILL hurt us a lot more than it helps.
I fully agree that we should have gotten Agriculture first though so we can work the corn. I thought we had done that. Nothing we can do about that now though. What we CAN do is get it up next and chop a forest after we get at the very least that grassland gem mined. Just don't chop out a warrior. If we're chopping, it needs to be a second worker to help us develop our area a bit more.
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It's hard to decided what to do at least for me since we have to much black on the map but an axe rush needs bronze and unless we find it in a good position we shouldn't consider it (not yet anyway).
I like the advice on trying to expand until there is no more room and use Wang as a trading partner. Depending on if we can discover other civilizations and especially important what religion will be spread/used on our continent we should make war/peace.
It is still a bit to early to look for a victory condition even though it is good to set them early (are we going for a cultural/space race etc.?) but finding a good second and third spot for our cities are key to better understanding our long term goals.
That's it for now keep going guys!
PS: Should we find some form of theme for our cities name? I suggest Progamers!
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On July 19 2010 05:49 Lunaticman wrote:
It's hard to decided what to do at least for me since we have to much black on the map but an axe rush needs bronze and unless we find it in a good position we shouldn't consider it (not yet anyway).
I like the advice on trying to expand until there is no more room and use Wang as a trading partner. Depending on if we can discover other civilizations and especially important what religion will be spread/used on our continent we should make war/peace.
It is still a bit to early to look for a victory condition even though it is good to set them early (are we going for a cultural/space race etc.?) but finding a good second and third spot for our cities are key to better understanding our long term goals.
That's it for now keep going guys!
PS: Should we find some form of theme for our cities name? I suggest Progamers!
I think the priority has to be exploring that black area and figuring out the best place for a blocking city on that side. Axe rushes are almost always a bad idea unless they are in your face (like their borders are 2 squares from yours at the start) and you have nowhere to expand, or they are really close and their city is absolutely amazing (like 4 grassland gems + food amazing). I will also point out that Wang is Protective, which is usually a pretty bad trait, but provides a boost against axe rushes.
I think it is pretty safe to say that we probably shouldn't be thinking about cultural too much. We have a lot of good land and will want to settle more than is optimal for culture.
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On July 19 2010 05:18 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 05:01 igotmyown wrote:Should have gone agriculture first so you could grow with a decent food resource. BW first means you can't grow efficiently, so you'll have to rely on chopping out the worker worker settler build, make sure your 1st warrior comes back in time to guard the second city location, and expand really fast. On the plus side, you can axe rush if you find bronze, and Wang Kon is in a decent position to axe rush. The biggest reason not to rush a close opponent is that there's another AI on the other side of you who's going to suck up the land you would have expanded had you rapid expanded. You can always settle the northwest at your leisure, and wang kon's double gold will further fund breakneck expansion. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352842 is the best technical axe/chariot rush guide on the site. You get a 3rd worker with an axe rush, though, and you're usually better off getting the second worker in the capital while the second city grows to a bit. Again I'll say it. An axe rush would be a terrible idea from this position. A chariot rush is even worse (they would have to go through all that jungle and are weaker than axemen when it comes to attacking). We have enough high commerce resources in our area as it is. We should be focusing on blocking Wang from expanding towards us and then we can take the high commerce squares and get our tech going. Heck, even our leader's traits are better suited to expanding rather than rushing. And we will get left behind the civs on other continents if we don't have a trading partner in the early parts of the game. We haven't found anyone other than Wang so far, and he's a pretty good trading partner, especially with early gold. We can take Wang out later in the game when we actually need to take his land. Right now we don't need it and our economy couldn't support the land if we were to take it. An axe rush WILL hurt us a lot more than it helps. I fully agree that we should have gotten Agriculture first though so we can work the corn. I thought we had done that. Nothing we can do about that now though. What we CAN do is get it up next and chop a forest after we get at the very least that grassland gem mined. Just don't chop out a warrior. If we're chopping, it needs to be a second worker to help us develop our area a bit more.
Uh huh
+ Show Spoiler [rush shadow] +Second city ![[image loading]](http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6944/civ4screenshot0271.jpg) Just teched alphabet + declared on Wang Kon ![[image loading]](http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2659/civ4screenshot0272.jpg) 10 axe rush ![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4345/civ4screenshot0273.jpg) Useful trade ![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8342/civ4screenshot0274.jpg) Have just enough to win... ![[image loading]](http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2960/civ4screenshot0275.jpg) In 2 rounds ![[image loading]](http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1593/civ4screenshot0276.jpg) Teching's pretty easy when you have 2 financial gold and 2 financial gems.
Warning: shadow round, do not look at it if you're going to play in the next few rounds, and don't reply with spoiler information.
Although I wouldn't recommend axe rushing protective leaders with gold (fast iron working for double chances at metal) unless you've got the build order down.
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Warning: shadow round, do not look at it if you're going to play in the next few rounds, and don't reply with spoiler information.
+ Show Spoiler [shadow stuff] +On July 19 2010 09:47 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 05:18 Qatol wrote:On July 19 2010 05:01 igotmyown wrote:Should have gone agriculture first so you could grow with a decent food resource. BW first means you can't grow efficiently, so you'll have to rely on chopping out the worker worker settler build, make sure your 1st warrior comes back in time to guard the second city location, and expand really fast. On the plus side, you can axe rush if you find bronze, and Wang Kon is in a decent position to axe rush. The biggest reason not to rush a close opponent is that there's another AI on the other side of you who's going to suck up the land you would have expanded had you rapid expanded. You can always settle the northwest at your leisure, and wang kon's double gold will further fund breakneck expansion. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352842 is the best technical axe/chariot rush guide on the site. You get a 3rd worker with an axe rush, though, and you're usually better off getting the second worker in the capital while the second city grows to a bit. Again I'll say it. An axe rush would be a terrible idea from this position. A chariot rush is even worse (they would have to go through all that jungle and are weaker than axemen when it comes to attacking). We have enough high commerce resources in our area as it is. We should be focusing on blocking Wang from expanding towards us and then we can take the high commerce squares and get our tech going. Heck, even our leader's traits are better suited to expanding rather than rushing. And we will get left behind the civs on other continents if we don't have a trading partner in the early parts of the game. We haven't found anyone other than Wang so far, and he's a pretty good trading partner, especially with early gold. We can take Wang out later in the game when we actually need to take his land. Right now we don't need it and our economy couldn't support the land if we were to take it. An axe rush WILL hurt us a lot more than it helps. I fully agree that we should have gotten Agriculture first though so we can work the corn. I thought we had done that. Nothing we can do about that now though. What we CAN do is get it up next and chop a forest after we get at the very least that grassland gem mined. Just don't chop out a warrior. If we're chopping, it needs to be a second worker to help us develop our area a bit more. Uh huh + Show Spoiler [rush shadow] +Second city Just teched alphabet + declared on Wang Kon 10 axe rush Useful trade Have just enough to win... In 2 rounds Teching's pretty easy when you have 2 financial gold and 2 financial gems. Warning: shadow round, do not look at it if you're going to play in the next few rounds, and don't reply with spoiler information. Although I wouldn't recommend axe rushing protective leaders with gold (fast iron working for double chances at metal) unless you've got the build order down. On July 19 2010 01:47 Qatol wrote:
We absolutely should not be axe rushing Wang. We have double gems and more gems nearby. We even got a peninsula. Just block him from expanding in our direction and then we can fill up our peninsula nicely. An axe rush would just slow down our expansion and get rid of someone who would be a nice trading partner, boosting our tech through the early game. Plus, protective archers are a little bit of a pain. I think we should be settling near those mountains relatively soon to try and keep Wang from taking too much land in our direction. After that, we need to secure those other gems so we can get our tech up and running nicely.
Also, this is a bit of a side tip, but players shouldn't get in the habit of axe rushing too much. It is a bad practice and simply doesn't work on the higher difficulty levels. Even on the lower difficulty levels, it is a huge waste of hammers which need to be put into workers, settlers, libraries, and maybe an early wonder depending on the situation. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I just said that it wasn't as good as leaving him alive and expanding. Also, does this rush work on higher difficulty levels? I have basically given up axe rushing on Immortal and Deity because I flat out lose (either because the rush just dies or I'm so far behind in tech after the rush I can't catch up to the other AIs). I'd be interested to hear if you have a rush build that doesn't put you really far behind for those difficulty levels. I usually wind up having to go into FE/HE or a SSE into a rifle/cav push.
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Since this is just general information, a well built axe/chariot rush is a pretty sure thing on immortal (normal speed), except in certain situations (skirmishers, they start with copper). You have to learn the window and not waste worker turns/production/build wasteful stuff. If you attack too early, you won't be able to overwhelm their free archers. If you attack too late, they've hooked up iron too long and pumped multiple axes. So the target attack size is about 10 axes/14 chariots vs 3 to 4 archers/axes, max of one axe, as fast as possible, chopping as much as you need to. You can also choose to whip the last round and even skip the barracks in the second city if your window looks too tight.
If you go writing right after bw/ah, then wheel, you can tech about halfway to alphabet/aesthetics, then use conquest gold to get the rest of the way (or save and go binary research after a library), and you've regained tech parity.
It will work in certain situations in deity, although you won't always be able to kill them outright.
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I don't think anyone is talking about whether or not its possible to axe rush, but whether or not its the best option. I'm not on ya'lls team but you guys have prime expanding territory and so long as you can cut Wang off from it, you've got yourself an amazing tech advantage- something only boosted by making friends with Wang (before eventually destroying him, perhaps, but still.)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0271.jpg)
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