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OMG, if you guys axe rush I will seriously declare war on every single civ we meet. Axe rushing would be amazingly bad.
Looking at our land, even though we have more than we need, this looks like a super-easy cultural victory for us. Take the cow/elephant site for a decent second city. Capital + land to southwest of capital for cottages and gems that will pump tech --> culture, and take the cow/rice/fish in the northwest for a GP farm. EDIT: loaded the save and in 2 turns we're about to discover a plains hill with 2 fish and banana to the east of the cow/elephant city, THAT is the GP farm. Plenty of other land to settle some auxiliary cities to make temples and stuff.
Some of you are making strategy mistakes that come from single-mindedness. 'I must control the expansion opportunities of my opponents. Destroying an opponent early is good'. NOPE. Look at our land! We're at the end of a peninsula with a protective, easy-ish to get along with civ as our barrier to the outside world. Don't settle anywhere NEAR him, we don't need close borders sparking tensions or giving him ideas about backstabbing us. Be ultra-friendly with him, and he will accelerate our tech without ever being a threat. Nobody is going to invade us this entire game, and we're not going to invade anyone else, either. Cultural victory pre-1500 AD, guaranteed.
Even IF you wanted to beat Wang Kon 1v1 style, the way would be to wait for elephants and catapults, instead of blocking his early expansion ability by taking crappy jungle land that only prevents us from immediately taking the awesome land being handed to us on a platter.
Also, please don't steal his worker, he will likely make us his worst enemy, not worth it at all.
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While I agree with you Keliah, the attitude of "I'm going to declare war on every civ" isnt really cool  Also, maybe it's just me but I don't see the point in playing a succession game over the course of a month if the goal is just an easy hand-holding cultural victory.
Yes, if I were on your team, I'd want to expand and get some crazy good tech and be peaceful, but to spice things up I'd wage war with Wang after taking over the entire peninsula. But I'm not on your team so it doesn't matter.
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On July 19 2010 11:34 igotmyown wrote:
Since this is just general information, a well built axe/chariot rush is a pretty sure thing on immortal (normal speed), except in certain situations (skirmishers, they start with copper). You have to learn the window and not waste worker turns/production/build wasteful stuff. If you attack too early, you won't be able to overwhelm their free archers. If you attack too late, they've hooked up iron too long and pumped multiple axes. So the target attack size is about 10 axes/14 chariots vs 3 to 4 archers/axes, max of one axe, as fast as possible, chopping as much as you need to. You can also choose to whip the last round and even skip the barracks in the second city if your window looks too tight.
If you go writing right after bw/ah, then wheel, you can tech about halfway to alphabet/aesthetics, then use conquest gold to get the rest of the way (or save and go binary research after a library), and you've regained tech parity.
It will work in certain situations in deity, although you won't always be able to kill them outright.
I would love to see some screenshots of you pulling off an axe/chariot rush on immortal normal speed without you getting too far behind on tech. What about deity? I was under the impression that even War Chariot rushes on deity are pretty much not going to work unless the AI doesn't have iron, copper, or horse in any of their first 3 towns.
On July 19 2010 12:34 Keilah wrote:
OMG, if you guys axe rush I will seriously declare war on every single civ we meet. Axe rushing would be amazingly bad.
Looking at our land, even though we have more than we need, this looks like a super-easy cultural victory for us. Take the cow/elephant site for a decent second city. Capital + land to southwest of capital for cottages and gems that will pump tech --> culture, and take the cow/rice/fish in the northwest for a GP farm. EDIT: loaded the save and in 2 turns we're about to discover a plains hill with 2 fish and banana to the east of the cow/elephant city, THAT is the GP farm. Plenty of other land to settle some auxiliary cities to make temples and stuff.
Some of you are making strategy mistakes that come from single-mindedness. 'I must control the expansion opportunities of my opponents. Destroying an opponent early is good'. NOPE. Look at our land! We're at the end of a peninsula with a protective, easy-ish to get along with civ as our barrier to the outside world. Don't settle anywhere NEAR him, we don't need close borders sparking tensions or giving him ideas about backstabbing us. Be ultra-friendly with him, and he will accelerate our tech without ever being a threat. Nobody is going to invade us this entire game, and we're not going to invade anyone else, either. Cultural victory pre-1500 AD, guaranteed.
Even IF you wanted to beat Wang Kon 1v1 style, the way would be to wait for elephants and catapults, instead of blocking his early expansion ability by taking crappy jungle land that only prevents us from immediately taking the awesome land being handed to us on a platter.
Also, please don't steal his worker, he will likely make us his worst enemy, not worth it at all.
Well I agree with some of what you are saying, but not all.
We do not need to worry about pissing off Wang Kon with borders. As long as we trade with him and take his religion (if he gets one), he will be happy with us. Wang isn't a warlike leader. He isn't going to rush us unless we do something stupid like steal his worker or declare war.
I agree I might have been a bit overzealous when I recommended settling in that jungle belt. However, if there is any land we want in that direction, we need to take it sooner rather than later, especially if the land is close to Wang. The jungle belt isn't exactly far from us. However, we also need to think hard about getting a GP farm and that double gem to the west up and running. The order depends on how quickly we can get up writing.
I agree that elephants and catapults would make a lot more sense than axemen for a rush. I also agree that we shouldn't bother.
I'm personally not a huge fan of culture wins. I think they leave you rather vulnerable to attacks if you aren't careful. Either way, we don't have to worry about that quite yet. We should at least figure out who the other civs in the area are and see how the early religions shake out before we go too far in deciding on a strategy.
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OMG, if you seriously declare war on every civ we meet then we will seriously not play from your save game.
In other news I disagree (I'm a total noob) with doing the axe rush. We can just sit back and live off the fat of the land for an easy cultural victory, so why not?
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OK, the 'declare war' statement was a little out of line. Just trying to get my point across =p
PS: you guys are fast, was in the midst of typing this and pressed ctrl+c, went back to page 1 to check the map, and another post against it. Whew!
Another option for city placement would be to use the far west gems (any good land in the blackness south of them?) as a third cottage city for the culture win. We could also use both of the sites I suggested for GP farms, regardless of if one of them becomes a legendary culture city or not.
How to win a culture victory: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298093
To be completely honest, I think our start is such a guaranteed easy cultural win, that we should consider banning ourselves from using that victory condition. It would be an informative, but easy and boring game. If we decide to go anti-culture, worker-stealing becomes an option but axe rushing is still awful.
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We should play to win as soon as possible to show how dominating we can win.
Since we are actually playing against ourselfs our goal is to try and be more efficient every game.
PS: I don't know when my turn starts but I would love an tutorial about uploading screen shoots before my turn.
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Lunaticman, just hit Print Screen in-game and it'll show up in your MyDocs / My Games / beyond the sword folder. (I think that's the right dir path, anyway.)
Edit: Screencapping doesn't work in window mode for some reason. :/
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I wouldn't mind doing culture. I've never won a culture victory before, and we've already done conquest/space
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Hey guys, I tried opening the file, but it gave me "network socket error" "Network socket could not be created". I guess I can't play it w/o internet?
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I don't know, nosliw.
Either way we should go for what will win.
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Never mind. It doesn't work without internet because it was created as a multiplayer game with 2 players.
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try selecting the different MP modes? I assume you already tried double clicking the file
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On July 19 2010 22:38 Keilah wrote:
try opening the game, selecting hot seat, and loading the game from there. I assume you already tried double clicking the file
This doesn't work because he would have to do Teamliquid A's turns as well.
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The game was created using a LAN with two computers. Maybe check to see if there is a firewall or something?
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United States2186 Posts
Civ is like a card game where you are dealt a hand (starting position) and have to base your strategy around that hand. Trying to do an axe rush or praet rush (like last game) regardless of position is nonsensical because most of the time there will be better options. Yes it is Monarch and the start position is very good, meaning you can do anything and win, but there's no reason to justify a poor strategy because of that. If this position was the same, just on Deity, Axe rushing would be completely moronic and would certainly fail.
Wang Kon is hardly going to declare war on you unless you totally bungle diplomacy, so there's no need to be afraid. This looks to be a good position to use the most 'core' Civ strategy: Liberalism rush through bulbing -> Renaissance War (Rifles/Cav). As this is a huge map you will need 8 cities to get Oxford/Globe access; that means blocking off Wang with the initial cities somewhere near the visible resources between you and any available fresh water in the fog. There are plenty of commerce resources, with some food, and very little fresh water/no rivers. Later on the terrain is great for a hammer economy, while for now it seems hybrid is best.
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I'll try again tonight by bringing my laptop to a free wireless hotspot.
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On July 19 2010 23:49 Ver wrote:
Civ is like a card game where you are dealt a hand (starting position) and have to base your strategy around that hand. Trying to do an axe rush or praet rush (like last game) regardless of position is nonsensical because most of the time there will be better options. Yes it is Monarch and the start position is very good, meaning you can do anything and win, but there's no reason to justify a poor strategy because of that. If this position was the same, just on Deity, Axe rushing would be completely moronic and would certainly fail.
Wang Kon is hardly going to declare war on you unless you totally bungle diplomacy, so there's no need to be afraid. This looks to be a good position to use the most 'core' Civ strategy: Liberalism rush through bulbing -> Renaissance War (Rifles/Cav). As this is a huge map you will need 8 cities to get Oxford/Globe access; that means blocking off Wang with the initial cities somewhere near the visible resources between you and any available fresh water in the fog. There are plenty of commerce resources, with some food, and very little fresh water/no rivers. Later on the terrain is great for a hammer economy, while for now it seems hybrid is best.
Your situational analysis is missing one of the most important elements: you're in semi-isolation, so you're zero sum with Wang Kon. Any land that he has, you will have to spend even more to take later. People do elephant catapult wars because it works and it gets land, not because it's cheap or transitions well techwise.
All the rest of the land is uncontested.
This is how it breaks down: I rush WK and gain the land around him and to the west via settling afterwards.
Or I do not rush WK, and gain the land to the west, and part of the land around WK.
The downfall of rushing isn't jungles or a capital a little over 10 tiles away on a large map. It is, like on the Julius Caesar attempt, the n-2 AIs sucking up the land you would have settled to. The AI could be 6 tiles away, but rushing would be a bad idea if you're land centered on a pangea map surrounded by land hungry AI. If there were an AI to the west, rushing would be a terrible idea because of the aforementioned reason.
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On July 20 2010 07:17 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 23:49 Ver wrote:
Civ is like a card game where you are dealt a hand (starting position) and have to base your strategy around that hand. Trying to do an axe rush or praet rush (like last game) regardless of position is nonsensical because most of the time there will be better options. Yes it is Monarch and the start position is very good, meaning you can do anything and win, but there's no reason to justify a poor strategy because of that. If this position was the same, just on Deity, Axe rushing would be completely moronic and would certainly fail.
Wang Kon is hardly going to declare war on you unless you totally bungle diplomacy, so there's no need to be afraid. This looks to be a good position to use the most 'core' Civ strategy: Liberalism rush through bulbing -> Renaissance War (Rifles/Cav). As this is a huge map you will need 8 cities to get Oxford/Globe access; that means blocking off Wang with the initial cities somewhere near the visible resources between you and any available fresh water in the fog. There are plenty of commerce resources, with some food, and very little fresh water/no rivers. Later on the terrain is great for a hammer economy, while for now it seems hybrid is best. Your situational analysis is missing one of the most important elements: you're in semi-isolation, so you're zero sum with Wang Kon. Any land that he has, you will have to spend even more to take later. People do elephant catapult wars because it works and it gets land, not because it's cheap or transitions well techwise. All the rest of the land is uncontested. This is how it breaks down: I rush WK and gain the land around him and to the west via settling afterwards. Or I do not rush WK, and gain the land to the west, and part of the land around WK. The downfall of rushing isn't jungles or a capital a little over 10 tiles away on a large map. It is, like on the Julius Caesar attempt, the n-2 AIs sucking up the land you would have settled to. The AI could be 6 tiles away, but rushing would be a bad idea if you're land centered on a pangea map surrounded by land hungry AI. If there were an AI to the west, rushing would be a terrible idea because of the aforementioned reason.
And you're neglecting the most important reason NOT to rush. You said it yourself, we are in semi-isolation. At this point, we have not found anyone other than Wang. With this map type (fractal), we may not find anyone other than Wang before Astronomy.
You linked to civfanatics, so I assume you have read that forum a bit. Do you know why the top players hate isolated starts? It is really hard to compete when you don't have trading partners to help backfill your tech. Do you know why the top players there don't like playing Mansa as much as someone like Darius, Elizabeth, Pacal, or Huayna? A big reason (though not the only reason) is because he is the best AI techer in the game, and isn't stingy about trading, so they like to have a chance to have him in the game and trade.
You're advocating killing off someone who not only is unlikely to attack us, but is also a decent techer and the only AI we have found, which could basically turn our start into an isolated start. Bad idea.
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On July 20 2010 08:04 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 07:17 igotmyown wrote:On July 19 2010 23:49 Ver wrote:
Civ is like a card game where you are dealt a hand (starting position) and have to base your strategy around that hand. Trying to do an axe rush or praet rush (like last game) regardless of position is nonsensical because most of the time there will be better options. Yes it is Monarch and the start position is very good, meaning you can do anything and win, but there's no reason to justify a poor strategy because of that. If this position was the same, just on Deity, Axe rushing would be completely moronic and would certainly fail.
Wang Kon is hardly going to declare war on you unless you totally bungle diplomacy, so there's no need to be afraid. This looks to be a good position to use the most 'core' Civ strategy: Liberalism rush through bulbing -> Renaissance War (Rifles/Cav). As this is a huge map you will need 8 cities to get Oxford/Globe access; that means blocking off Wang with the initial cities somewhere near the visible resources between you and any available fresh water in the fog. There are plenty of commerce resources, with some food, and very little fresh water/no rivers. Later on the terrain is great for a hammer economy, while for now it seems hybrid is best. Your situational analysis is missing one of the most important elements: you're in semi-isolation, so you're zero sum with Wang Kon. Any land that he has, you will have to spend even more to take later. People do elephant catapult wars because it works and it gets land, not because it's cheap or transitions well techwise. All the rest of the land is uncontested. This is how it breaks down: I rush WK and gain the land around him and to the west via settling afterwards. Or I do not rush WK, and gain the land to the west, and part of the land around WK. The downfall of rushing isn't jungles or a capital a little over 10 tiles away on a large map. It is, like on the Julius Caesar attempt, the n-2 AIs sucking up the land you would have settled to. The AI could be 6 tiles away, but rushing would be a bad idea if you're land centered on a pangea map surrounded by land hungry AI. If there were an AI to the west, rushing would be a terrible idea because of the aforementioned reason. And you're neglecting the most important reason NOT to rush. You said it yourself, we are in semi-isolation. At this point, we have not found anyone other than Wang. With this map type (fractal), we may not find anyone other than Wang before Astronomy. You linked to civfanatics, so I assume you have read that forum a bit. Do you know why the top players hate isolated starts? It is really hard to compete when you don't have trading partners to help backfill your tech. Do you know why the top players there don't like playing Mansa as much as someone like Darius, Elizabeth, Pacal, or Huayna? A big reason (though not the only reason) is because he is the best AI techer in the game, and isn't stingy about trading, so they like to have a chance to have him in the game and trade. You're advocating killing off someone who not only is unlikely to attack us, but is also a decent techer and the only AI we have found, which could basically turn our start into an isolated start. Bad idea.
The AI will not trade with you if you're their only contact unless they hit friendly. One AI has the same problems as isolation only less land and more competition. You keep them alive if there are 2 AIs, in which case they will trade.
If it is indeed one on one in isolation, you're far better off killing them if possible so you don't have to aggressively block off high distance cities, or as someone put it, "expand at your leisure".
Some basic searches will confirm this. People dislike semi-isolated starts just as much as isolated starts, unless you can kill them and get double the usual land.
You can get WK to friendly if you adopt his religion, caste system, and gift him a city, I believe. Just religion and caste will still be a random event/demand crap shoot.
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Any ideas on victory conditions if we don't do culture? I've actually never won a diplomatic/religious victory, could be interesting. Domination and conquest are not going to happen, unless people enjoy massive intercontinental wars on huge maps. Other than that it's culture or space race.
BTW, I endorse building a work boat to go explore. If it can't go anywhere, we're going to need it fairly soon for fish anyways.
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EPT
