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Diablo III General Discussion - Page 317

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kuresuti
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
1393 Posts
April 21 2012 08:04 GMT
#6321
On April 21 2012 16:54 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 14:01 Medzo wrote:
On April 21 2012 12:22 mcmartini wrote:so whats the point in having a hand weapon altogether besides the stats doesn't it impact my skills in anyway?


All damage, including spells, is weapon based.

On April 21 2012 13:52 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
That was... so intuitive -.-


Agreed. Cant understand why they are going this way with the UI.

wtf? really? it didn't say that anywhere in spell descriptions. Actually spell descriptions are crap, I got no clue what is their exact damage and that is irritating.


Turn on advanced tooltips.
Pitrocelli
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Slovakia127 Posts
April 21 2012 08:15 GMT
#6322
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.


After playing beta i was thinking i have to be using elective mode incorrectly.
There is no way i will not be able to choose which skill to get on levelup. They could not implement it like it (since i already cant choose atributes)

well ... as i see confirmed they did.


-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
April 21 2012 10:17 GMT
#6323
On April 21 2012 17:04 kuresuti wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 16:54 -Archangel- wrote:
On April 21 2012 14:01 Medzo wrote:
On April 21 2012 12:22 mcmartini wrote:so whats the point in having a hand weapon altogether besides the stats doesn't it impact my skills in anyway?


All damage, including spells, is weapon based.

On April 21 2012 13:52 TheRealPaciFist wrote:
That was... so intuitive -.-


Agreed. Cant understand why they are going this way with the UI.

wtf? really? it didn't say that anywhere in spell descriptions. Actually spell descriptions are crap, I got no clue what is their exact damage and that is irritating.


Turn on advanced tooltips.

Tnx, that solved one of my problems with D3
Nilrem
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3684 Posts
April 21 2012 10:42 GMT
#6324
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.
Meepo Haters gonna Hate. https://twitter.com/KazeNilrem (@KazeNilrem)
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 12:05:49
April 21 2012 12:04 GMT
#6325
On April 21 2012 19:42 Nilrem wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.
ChiXoo
Profile Joined February 2012
Germany37 Posts
April 21 2012 12:30 GMT
#6326
On April 21 2012 21:04 Pr0wler wrote:

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.



totally agree!
\m/
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
April 21 2012 12:41 GMT
#6327
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.


The idea of "tweaking your character" as you levelled is pure fantasy. Go back and play D2 if you want to confirm that.

There was no "dynamic build". You picked what your main skills were before rolling your char, you spent the bare minimum of skill points to unlock the prereqs, and then you spent a miserable 20-30 levels using level 1 skills you never wanted to use so you could actually reach the skills you wanted to use.

And prior to 1.10, you couldn't even use skill points to make those levelling up skills less shitty, because it would have no benefit whatsoever lategame. Even after 1.10, all that changed was that you would level up using the least shitty skill with a synergy for your end game skills, and be able to dump some points into that without completely gimping your build.

Stat point allocation being interesting is again a total fantasy. You got
- the bare minimum of str for your chosen item requirements, after charms/gear bonuses
- either min dex for item requirements, or enough for 75% block with stormshield
- nothing in energy
- everything else in vitality

Nothing else was even worth considering, even the pvp str barb stopped being used after people showed it got annihilated by doing the above. I made a titan barb once, and he did ~5% more damage than a regular build would have but with about 1/3 of the HP.
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 12:50:45
April 21 2012 12:50 GMT
#6328
On April 21 2012 21:04 Pr0wler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 19:42 Nilrem wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.


Other than max block vs max vitality, there is no other choice in stats. The same choice is still present in D3 - it's called "use a shield or don't use a shield".

There are many more viable builds in D3 just from the number of skills and runes. You name 4 different paladin builds, except other than the hammerdin, the other 3 are basically the same build thanks to the extreme shortage of viable skills for the paladin.

A single build can max Fanat, Charge, Smite, get the 4 points in Zeal required for 5 hits, get a handful of points in Holy Shield for defence, and then dump the rest in Sacrifice for synergy with Zeal. Smite's own damage was awful, and the only reason anyone used it was to combine with CB, so synergising it was a waste of time.

Basically, take off your rose tinted glasses and try and open your mind ^^
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
April 21 2012 13:15 GMT
#6329
On April 21 2012 21:50 dmfg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 21:04 Pr0wler wrote:
On April 21 2012 19:42 Nilrem wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.


Other than max block vs max vitality, there is no other choice in stats. The same choice is still present in D3 - it's called "use a shield or don't use a shield".

There are many more viable builds in D3 just from the number of skills and runes. You name 4 different paladin builds, except other than the hammerdin, the other 3 are basically the same build thanks to the extreme shortage of viable skills for the paladin.

A single build can max Fanat, Charge, Smite, get the 4 points in Zeal required for 5 hits, get a handful of points in Holy Shield for defence, and then dump the rest in Sacrifice for synergy with Zeal. Smite's own damage was awful, and the only reason anyone used it was to combine with CB, so synergising it was a waste of time.

Basically, take off your rose tinted glasses and try and open your mind ^^

Man I don't know what to tell you... The 4 builds are pretty different. For Charger you need to max vigor and might, you don't need holy shield because usually charge is used with 2 handed weapon for more dmg(pure charger that is). For zealot you max Zeal,Sacrifice, HS, Fanaticism,Defiance... For smiter - smite, hs, defiance, fanaticism... rest is up to you.
And the "use shield or don't use shield" part was hilarious :D
[Crimson]Bason
Profile Joined October 2008
China161 Posts
April 21 2012 13:16 GMT
#6330
None of you have played the whole D3 game so how can you say that D3 has more viable options? If someone has never played D2 and looked at all those skill options and stat allocaton options there would think that there thousands of options but at least they have the option to choose and tweek builds. In D3 how do you know all those skills/spells are viable later games? noone knows. and im sure alot of those skills will not be used later in the game because some skills/spells are just better than others. With time... people going to figure out optimal builds and we will reverse back to D2 where some builds will excel. But D3 has been dumbed down... and the rune system doesnt offer the excitment of finding runes... some runes for their skills are just totally useless because they couldnt come up with 5-6 real good effect of those runes on each and every skills... seriously some rune adds like so little to the skill its barely noticeable.
Rynzser_r
Profile Joined November 2011
275 Posts
April 21 2012 13:43 GMT
#6331
wtf when i press start game in diablo 3 i get 'error 3004' -.-
Any help?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 21 2012 13:49 GMT
#6332
So I rolled through the beta with a monk and did not use a healing potion once. It seemed kinda wrong for the game to be so easy.
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 13:59:50
April 21 2012 13:56 GMT
#6333
On April 21 2012 22:15 Pr0wler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 21:50 dmfg wrote:
On April 21 2012 21:04 Pr0wler wrote:
On April 21 2012 19:42 Nilrem wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.


Other than max block vs max vitality, there is no other choice in stats. The same choice is still present in D3 - it's called "use a shield or don't use a shield".

There are many more viable builds in D3 just from the number of skills and runes. You name 4 different paladin builds, except other than the hammerdin, the other 3 are basically the same build thanks to the extreme shortage of viable skills for the paladin.

A single build can max Fanat, Charge, Smite, get the 4 points in Zeal required for 5 hits, get a handful of points in Holy Shield for defence, and then dump the rest in Sacrifice for synergy with Zeal. Smite's own damage was awful, and the only reason anyone used it was to combine with CB, so synergising it was a waste of time.

Basically, take off your rose tinted glasses and try and open your mind ^^

Man I don't know what to tell you... The 4 builds are pretty different. For Charger you need to max vigor and might, you don't need holy shield because usually charge is used with 2 handed weapon for more dmg(pure charger that is). For zealot you max Zeal,Sacrifice, HS, Fanaticism,Defiance... For smiter - smite, hs, defiance, fanaticism... rest is up to you.
And the "use shield or don't use shield" part was hilarious :D


You never need to max HS nor defiance for any build, and it doesn't make any different to playstyle either. Maxing zeal is optional for a zealot because Sac gives so much more damage. Maxing vigor is also optional for a charger, it makes a minor difference to your speed and make your charges desync more. Maxing smite makes almost no difference to the damage output of a smiter, who only actually smites vs bosses anyway where 90+% of your damage is CB.

The build I listed will (with the same gear as the your builds) do 90+% of the damage of your zealot, 90+% of the damage of your charger and desync less, 95+% of the damage of your smiter (vs bosses).

At the heart of it, you have 5-6 core skills, and a few choices around the side that you can take but don't really make any difference to how it plays. There's an illusion of choice because there are so many things you can do differently, but they're not meaningful choices. So why bother except so you can say "my build is unique and different".
kuresuti
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
1393 Posts
April 21 2012 14:17 GMT
#6334
On April 21 2012 22:49 xDaunt wrote:
So I rolled through the beta with a monk and did not use a healing potion once. It seemed kinda wrong for the game to be so easy.


I can run through D2 act 1 without getting HIT once.
Candadar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2049 Posts
April 21 2012 14:19 GMT
#6335
My thoughts on Diablo 3 summed up into one picture.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


But really, I don't see myself buying this. It's the most dumbed down it could possibly get without having to rename the game. I feel like it's almost a parody of the modern state of gaming, with all the "+30XP BLOODY COMBO!" and shit. The popups that just come when you're playing is just frustratingly annoying, and is completely out of place. Did I mention the bloody-screen-so-real effect too? Why the fuck is that in Diablo?

The graphics aren't "bad", they're just too stylized in my opinion. They're better graphics than Diablo 2, but D2 still LOOKS better because I feel the artstyle fits it better than this. I wont whine about that though because well, I do think the game looks pretty damn good and I was never one to complain about graphics. However, I do feel like the art direction went in the wrong direction.

I also realize it's just the beginning, but honestly, I literally looked away from my monitor and played and still just destroyed everything. I do hope the difficulty is amped up later on. It wasn't a challenge at all.

Even though I don't particularly like their game either, some PoE guy on the forums wrote a good post on it. Here's an excerpt:

Diablo 3 promised the ultimate in skill freedom, with its skill rune system. The potential for themed builds was mind-blowing. I ignored the other problems with the game (RMAH concerns, the visuals being less gritty and more stylised, the simplified stat system) and embraced this idea. Acquiring skills by leveling up is traditional, but finding items that modify the skills dramatically? Brilliant. Utterly brilliant. A little like Sacred 2's system, only with added dimensions.

And then they killed it. Now skill runes are given to you as you level. I don't need to explain the difference between that and the previously promised skill rune system. You've suddenly gone from a world of freedom to a conveyor belt.

They also killed ID scrolls, which to me is about as contra-Diabloesque as removing the 'ding' sound for when a ring drops. It was blasphemy to a Diablo veteran.

All hopes for a true successor to Diablo 1/2 were dashed against the rocks of Activision and Blizzard's drive towards the lowest common denominator. And let's be honest, Diablo never had a particularly high lowest common denominator in the first place. You click stuff, stuff dies, goodies drop, you get goodies and can now kill tougher stuff. That's the heart of Diablo and we love it.


I know this is turning into almost a buzzword (buzzphrase?) but I feel like they were just trying to make WoW, but in aRPG format. I don't even want to blame Blizzard for this, I blame Activision as it is probably their fault. I never got to play Diablo 2 to an extensive level, but the amount I did play shaped a strong opinion on the time I played this game. I don't even want to deal with the "it's a beta" card, because the game is out in less than a month(?). These are fundamental issues wrong with the game.

But I'll wait until I see the finished product before I give a final judgement on it, for the benefit of the doubt.
Wurstbrot
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany89 Posts
April 21 2012 14:25 GMT
#6336
Wait for the retail. I played the exploited extra-betazones and it was much more fun.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
smallerk
Profile Joined October 2010
897 Posts
April 21 2012 14:32 GMT
#6337
On April 21 2012 23:25 Wurstbrot wrote:
Wait for the retail. I played the exploited extra-betazones and it was much more fun.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


Oh my god, that last picture gave me chills.

Can't wait for may 15th.
Never Regret anything because at one time it was exactly what you wanted.
MoonfireSpam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1153 Posts
April 21 2012 14:40 GMT
#6338
I quite like the new skill system, it feels quite streamlined and instead rerolling a new character to rebuild, you can just trade them out and experiment much more freely. You still only use a handful of skills, which is exactly what happend in D2 anyway. The rest were synergies or passives and really not used in any game altering way.

I don't care that stats can't be allocated. In D2 you got minimum Str / Dex for block as an optional extra then stacked vitality, which was a pointless exercise anyway.

While I dislike the MW "near death" effect, this new streamlined verson of Diablo is really nice. They removed all the fake choice which is why certain people are moaning, but I think it's overall for the better.
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
April 21 2012 14:40 GMT
#6339
On April 21 2012 22:56 dmfg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 22:15 Pr0wler wrote:
On April 21 2012 21:50 dmfg wrote:
On April 21 2012 21:04 Pr0wler wrote:
On April 21 2012 19:42 Nilrem wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 11:34 pellejohnson wrote:
The absolutely worst part with D3 is the change to the skill system. Did they really have to dumb it down this much? I mean it feels so wrong not really having any choice leveling up, feels like everything is auto, what skills you get, what stats go up and the runes. What happened to actually tweaking your character using different builds? What happened to the amazing discussions whether this extra point in this skill over that other skill was worth it or not.

No sorry but I can't say I'm too pleased with these changes, also the max players = 4 is terrible considering that I have a group of 5 friends who would love to play together but right now one of us have to skip playing every single session...


I sort of disagree. Diablo 2 is a game that gives off the sense of allowing an exuberant amount of freedom. Unfortunately, that freedom is only a mask since the game itself is limiting. Take for example the attributes; you can place the points where ever you want. But for you to get gear needed to be at least descent, you have to put X amount of points into Y. It gave off the illusion of being free but in reality, you are constrained by gear and the general fact that you can easily gimp your hero. Once you put the points in, there is no turning back and down the line (end game content, which is the important content), you will end up deleting the hero and starting over again. Since there is a glimmer of "right" way.

The same is for the skill system. It gives off the illusion of being free but you are actually restricted, it is more restrictive and linear than the Diablo III system. The reason for this is simple, you do get to choose three choices; good job. Now, you have to put X amount of points in Y skill to get the better skill, otherwise you are weak. Than, you go to the next skill opened up, so on and so forth. You get a choice but you are also forced in the amount of points. If you throw them where ever, than you have completely gimped yourself.

Diablo III allows for more freedom for the skills for one good reason. You are not limited to having X skill to use Y. If you want to use X skill and you are that level, go right ahead. You can mix and swap the skills all you want without being tied down by a very linear system. Right in the beginning, and I mean within the first few levels. The Diablo II game has more freedom in terms of skills. But, the more you level, the more freedom you have, the more skills, and less restraint you have.

The last point I want to make is in regards to the player amount. There are three portions I wish to address. The first is simple, why does it matter how many friends you have that want to play? I can say I X amount of friends, so it should be increased. The two main reasons is this; the animation of the skills will kill the game. I do not know how much of the game you have seen, but with 4 players alone (and especially with the later skills), the screen is nearly covered with skills. If we had 8 players (as an example), you would not even be able to see what you were attacking.

The last point is simply party mechanics. Blizzard really wishes for emphasis to be with parties. Diablo II was a near failure when it came to parties. Most common games you see that had 8 players were Dueling rooms, trading rooms, and Mf runs. The games when people were actually trying to play, the players were either split up or doing entirely different things. There was no need for the players to be together. Even Mf runs were done so for the sake of getting the sweet 8 number, and not the necessity of needing 8 people for dps. Diablo III, because it has less players. There is more emphasis on you the player. Having one person slag behind can be bad, especially with bosses. There is more consequence for not putting in the effort. Especially since the difficulty is easier to balance with the amount of players when there is a maximum of 4. It is easier to make the difficult of the game based on the number of players when there are less to begin with.


Anyway yeah, I disagree with your points. The changes have been made to keep the end game content more entertaining and not relying on mechanics that punish you for dumb mistakes.

What ?
About the stats part : In Diablo 2 you can build you character in really different ways. As example you can build sorceress with max block, or you can neglect the block and go for more vitality... It's entirely up to the player. The game does not force you do one or the other. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing... The game raises your stats instead of you just like in WoW.
The skills: This is the same as the stats. You can build your character in many different ways -> Hammerdin, Charger, Zealot, Smiter - these are just 4 of the many variations of the paladin. The player can use his creativity and can mix some of the skills to create hybrid etc. etc. In Diablo 3 there is no such thing again. All players get all the skills, no thinking involved.

I played the beta yesterday, and as a long time D2 player I'm pretty disappointed. What makes my character different from the others when the stats system is automated and all the players take the same skills ? Maybe only the items system can bring some diversity, but I'm not sure if it will cut it.


Other than max block vs max vitality, there is no other choice in stats. The same choice is still present in D3 - it's called "use a shield or don't use a shield".

There are many more viable builds in D3 just from the number of skills and runes. You name 4 different paladin builds, except other than the hammerdin, the other 3 are basically the same build thanks to the extreme shortage of viable skills for the paladin.

A single build can max Fanat, Charge, Smite, get the 4 points in Zeal required for 5 hits, get a handful of points in Holy Shield for defence, and then dump the rest in Sacrifice for synergy with Zeal. Smite's own damage was awful, and the only reason anyone used it was to combine with CB, so synergising it was a waste of time.

Basically, take off your rose tinted glasses and try and open your mind ^^

Man I don't know what to tell you... The 4 builds are pretty different. For Charger you need to max vigor and might, you don't need holy shield because usually charge is used with 2 handed weapon for more dmg(pure charger that is). For zealot you max Zeal,Sacrifice, HS, Fanaticism,Defiance... For smiter - smite, hs, defiance, fanaticism... rest is up to you.
And the "use shield or don't use shield" part was hilarious :D


You never need to max HS nor defiance for any build, and it doesn't make any different to playstyle either. Maxing zeal is optional for a zealot because Sac gives so much more damage. Maxing vigor is also optional for a charger, it makes a minor difference to your speed and make your charges desync more. Maxing smite makes almost no difference to the damage output of a smiter, who only actually smites vs bosses anyway where 90+% of your damage is CB.

The build I listed will (with the same gear as the your builds) do 90+% of the damage of your zealot, 90+% of the damage of your charger and desync less, 95+% of the damage of your smiter (vs bosses).

At the heart of it, you have 5-6 core skills, and a few choices around the side that you can take but don't really make any difference to how it plays. There's an illusion of choice because there are so many things you can do differently, but they're not meaningful choices. So why bother except so you can say "my build is unique and different".

I guess you have to go back and remind yourself the paladin skills.Vigor is maxed out on charger because it gives +20% dmg per level. Might for the same reason. When you fight you use the fanaticism aura.
Anyways... Even if we take only the "different" builds for that char - Hammerdin, FoH and the one you stated, that is already more variety...
zomgE
Profile Joined January 2012
498 Posts
April 21 2012 14:55 GMT
#6340
i always find these "true d2 fans" opinions weird.
if d2 is the perfect game for you why are u even waiting for anything else?
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