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On August 01 2011 21:13 Excludos wrote:
I think its more a logistical problem. Someone dies in a game and loses items they have payed real life money to buy. It could be problematic to actually set up a system like this legally.
I guess you may be right, But then again the 3rd part sites selling the stuff never had this problem (Mainly because it wasn't actually legal). But I'm about 90% sure as long as Blizz warns you and tells you buying this in Hardcore is at your own risk then its 100% legal (Note: I'm probably just spouting bullshit but thats what I believe so don't take this like a lawyer said it.)
I just feel like it would be more enjoyable to run hardcore get alot of elite gear and then sell it all when you are done with the game, Because theres that amount of Risk-v-Reward.
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On August 01 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:07 kinray wrote:Honestly i don't get all the fuzz about real money AH. Noone really makes you to buy stuff and if you are lucky enough you even can make some cash. D3 is not the first MMO that will use this model. Actually in most of the current MMO titles this kind of trades are happening and it does not matter if they are illegal or not. To say: "I want pure and fair game that reward only the dedicated and hardcore players" is just not practical. There are too many working people that want to enjoy the game but due to other stuff (like actual job or family) can't spend the required time to get gear for the whole content, so this type of trade is their only chance. We should start to view the gaming not only as the thing for students but for middle aged people and as everything at that point that brings pleasure gaming cost money too.  There's a difference between making stuff easier to obtain and actually giving stuff. EVE Online is a good example. People can spend real money to buy lots of top ships, but that's not enough to win the game. D3 is all about gear at the end-game, and if everyone can easily buy gear for money there's very little reason to keep playing.
Very well said, I've seen the EVE comparison on many other sites. But you nailed it spot on.
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On August 01 2011 21:15 Firewood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 20:50 Whalecore wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the real money auction house idea is awesome? People are gonna sell items for $$$ anyway, so it's much better if it's official and legal. Yes people are going to sell items anyway but i'm pretty fucking sure that those who sold items in diablo 2 was in minority. Real money will kill the spirit of the game. Everyone is going to hate AH buyers but everyone will also be one. No matter if you use real money or not. You can run around in a shiny armor but no one is going to credit you for it or respect you, since you basically can go buy one on AH.
Was there ever any pride or respect in Diablo 2? Duping, MFing, rushing/PLing, pindelbotting and other exploits/tactics has been a part of Diablo 2 since the dawn of time.
Very few people played the game legit, and those that did only played it for a short amount of time because the game got very old very fast.
Diablo was never about pride or being respected by the community, it was just about having fun with friends. Either that or working towards that perfect char using the above exploits (which take up a large portion of diablo 2s history).
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so sad, a game ruined even before the beta
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On August 01 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:07 kinray wrote:Honestly i don't get all the fuzz about real money AH. Noone really makes you to buy stuff and if you are lucky enough you even can make some cash. D3 is not the first MMO that will use this model. Actually in most of the current MMO titles this kind of trades are happening and it does not matter if they are illegal or not. To say: "I want pure and fair game that reward only the dedicated and hardcore players" is just not practical. There are too many working people that want to enjoy the game but due to other stuff (like actual job or family) can't spend the required time to get gear for the whole content, so this type of trade is their only chance. We should start to view the gaming not only as the thing for students but for middle aged people and as everything at that point that brings pleasure gaming cost money too. There's a difference between making stuff easier to obtain and actually giving stuff. EVE Online is a good example. People can spend real money to buy lots of top ships, but that's not enough to win the game. D3 is all about gear at the end-game, and if everyone can easily buy gear for money there's very little reason to keep playing.
Can you tell me how D3 will be different from D2 in this aspect? In D2 it was virtually impossible to play "legit" because of all the dupes/bot/third party sites selling items for real money. Now in D3 blizzard actually are killing all that sites that are selling items.
And how can you "win the game" in D3? PvP? How does PvP worked in D2 and when it was so "pure" as you try to make it sound it should be?
If you want to stay clear from real money in D3 you can play hardcore because apparently most of the players are too stupid to understand that loosing hardcore character will make you loose all the money you spend on it.
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D3 is officially the worst action RPG since Fable now, and it's not even in beta yet, LOL.
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On August 01 2011 21:18 Firewood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:15 Novalisk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:07 kinray wrote:Honestly i don't get all the fuzz about real money AH. Noone really makes you to buy stuff and if you are lucky enough you even can make some cash. D3 is not the first MMO that will use this model. Actually in most of the current MMO titles this kind of trades are happening and it does not matter if they are illegal or not. To say: "I want pure and fair game that reward only the dedicated and hardcore players" is just not practical. There are too many working people that want to enjoy the game but due to other stuff (like actual job or family) can't spend the required time to get gear for the whole content, so this type of trade is their only chance. We should start to view the gaming not only as the thing for students but for middle aged people and as everything at that point that brings pleasure gaming cost money too. There's a difference between making stuff easier to obtain and actually giving stuff. EVE Online is a good example. People can spend real money to buy lots of top ships, but that's not enough to win the game. D3 is all about gear at the end-game, and if everyone can easily buy gear for money there's very little reason to keep playing. Very well said, I've seen the EVE comparison on many other sites. But you nailed it spot on.
Plex bought motherships (or outside eula ebayed motherships) made for some of the most hilarious player created content back when i played.
Best thing was, the whole community would be straight on the bandwagon and mock the guy. Plus back then it actually took quite a bit of irl cash to get mothership, if you wanted to buy it for out of game currency in a legal way. Maybe like 500$. All down the drain in minuttes
Having high end stuff does not make you less of a retard, if you are retard in first place. In eve especially, it would just paint a giant bullseye on your back for all the happy skalp hunters.
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Funny how fast I went from excited to indifferent. Can't say I'm that surprised and guess I'll save $60 when it gets released, fucking Acitblizz.
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MFing and rushing was clever use of game mechanics, and a part of the game. But i agree with you that there was no pride or respect in Diablo 2 but that's not a reason to say "hey fuck it, let em do whatever the fuck they want".
Diablo 2 came out during an era where a lot of online gaming was unexplored. I'm pretty sure that Blizzard are able to control their gamers a lot better than before and therefor creating a more pleasant experience. What they do now is going about it the same way it was done in D2, except they are saying it is okay now. I'm sure the botting and duping won't be in the same scale as in D2 but still the cultural and the social experience is going to be flat out the same shit as in Diablo 2. Your achievments not gonna mean shit to anyone, i'm not a super duper nerd that is going to lose sleep over it but i do consider it a part of an RPG game when you can say to yourself "hey that guy actually beat the game" instead of thinking "hey that guy opened his wallet". I was hoping for a turn around with Diablo 3, but it's not going to happen.
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The 10 character limit per account is a fucking joke.
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On August 01 2011 21:19 Senx wrote:
Was there ever any pride or respect in Diablo 2? Duping, MFing, rushing/PLing, pindelbotting and other exploits/tactics has been a part of Diablo 2 since the dawn of time.
Very few people played the game legit, and those that did only played it for a short amount of time because the game got very old very fast.
Diablo was never about pride or being respected by the community, it was just about having fun with friends. Either that or working towards that perfect char using the above exploits (which take up a large portion of diablo 2s history).
MF runs, rushing chars through acts and powerleveling are exploits?
If you don't like to play the game like that then more power to you, but I love to rush my chars to high levels as soon as possible, get some wealth by doing mf runs and then start trading, because that's the aspect I enjoy the most in D2.
I love turning wealth into more wealth by abusing the traits of the barter based economy, that is people who don't know the real value of their items.
Are you saying the way I enjoy this game is wrong? Should I apologize for not conforming to your standards of fair play?
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Just 10 characters can you delete and restart whenever? What about account sharing I have 2 brothers that also play Diablo and spending 180$ to all play is just insane to expect of us.
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i dont know why the real money stuff is a problem...if u dont like it dont use. nobody forces u
and the other argument is that the game is based around getting the best items, and if u can simply buy them the game lost his core playfeature (whatever u want to call it). so if some lazy ass kid comes around with the best items and u know he bought them, why do u even care.
im gonna play the game with friends, find my own stuff and enjoy the story, and if i find something cool its gona be awesome. just ignore those kids
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On August 01 2011 20:53 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 20:40 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:On August 01 2011 19:58 Sufficiency wrote:On August 01 2011 19:44 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:On August 01 2011 18:53 dacthehork wrote:
You will never as a real player make money off this auction house.
Simple economics. Labor in some countries is EXTREMELY cheap. If you can make 1 dollar an hour farming a endgame area. Guess what, there will be factories of cheap laborers farming that area.
Simple worldwide economics means 95% of the supply will be from cheap laborers. The main interaction Americans/first worlders would have is buying said goods. The supply will match the demand. If the demand for items is enough to sustain 5 dollars an hour, the market will be flooded by cheap laborers from third world/poor areas farming.
Basically from a supply/demand there is no way the average player will make more than like 20 cents an hour playing d3 constantly. If you could make more, a huge supply of cheap laborers would already be doing it and probably will flood the market.
I wouldnt be surprised if 60% of accounts are "farmers" aka cheap laborers from poor areas.
Also yes the chinese will use proxies to avoid bans. Now if botting/hacking becomes the norm like in D2 you could potentially make some cash botting/duping, but not legitly playing. I'm sorry, it's not that easy. You can't just come up with random numbers. For example, the money you need to invest in order to set up for selling at $1/hour will feed a family for a few months. Anybody that can afford to buy multiple set ups will find much more profitable investment opportunities in, for example, sewing stuff. There are so many more things you didn't consider. It's incredibly naive to assume that a billon dollar company would make such a decision without consulting real experts and taking appropriate counter measures to everything. They can't make a game which can possibly turn out the way you described, there's way too much at stake. On August 01 2011 19:46 MasterFischer wrote:On August 01 2011 19:35 Sufficiency wrote:
Any TLers here play WoW and sold WoW stuff before? I have some friends who were hardcore WoW players. I vaguely remember one of my friends said something about having played about 500 hours of WoW, quit, then sold his account for nearly 1000 dollars. I am not sure if this was real, but it was a lot of money.
If the same reward/hours ratio can be realized in D3, one can easily make a very profitable business out of this. 1-2 dollars per hour is very good wage in many countries, especially if the workers are getting paid playing video games.
Anyways, my point is that trading in-game currency against real money is evil. There has already been too much publicity about some prisoners in China being forced to play WoW. Blizzard is promoting this kinds of things by legalizing trading in-game currency against real money; furthermore, Blizzard "tax" every dollar that is made this way.
Congratulations on Blizzard on figuring out how to exploit the poor and disadvantaged in such a smart and novel way. are you kidding me? 1-2 per hour is slave labor lol. Spending 500 hours on something for sheer profit of 1000 dollars is bad business. Get a job, work a week, and you have 10 times thast amount in my country. Lols You are thinking too highly of Blizzard. Blizzard is a corporation whose goal is to make money. The system it is proposing makes money for Blizzard. I hardly think it cares about consequences besides itself making money. Also, I am fairly sure that most people in the poorest countries in Africa live below the UN poverty line: which is 1.25 USD per day. I am not saying that sweat shops for this will immediately become a success, but with the legalization of RM trades, this is essentially what Blizzard is promoting. Also remember that these are not real labour jobs. In fact, these are kind of "fun" jobs that people can do. There are obviously a lot of challenges I can think of: 1. Setup cost. The company needs to buy computers (probably needs 500 USD per machine), copies of D3 (Blizzard makes more money), a physical sweat shop, etc. 2. Training. A sweat shop worker needs to know how to play the game effectively. This is mitigated by the fact that D3 is a computer game that is designed to be "fun" to play, thus motivating the workers to learn to play the game. 3. Profit margins. This is a tough one. Compared to WoW's system, I suspect a lot more people will be selling items, but also because of its legality, a lot more players will buy items. To this end, I find it difficult to predict the profit margins of such operation, except I think it will be comparable to WoW. Regardless, the worst thing about this is that Blizzard gets a share of the profit from these kinds of operations through listing fees, tax, etc. No, it's not that easy. If it was that easy to generate risk-free profit, every 3rd world country in the world would already be doing it. Infact, if it's that easy, why are you still sitting around. A chinese goldfarmer earns around $300/month and generates goods worth twice as much, you should quickly invest. Again, blizzard is a billon $ company, they were very aware of the fact that people would go apeshit , you don't have to be a wizard to predict this. They have to be in a position where they can properly address all the concerns people have about their game or it won't sell i.e. they won't make money. But by legalizing this, the risk is a lot smaller. In WoW, you can never run this very effectively. The problem is that if you run a large scale operation and Blizzard knows about you, they can ban all the working accounts, causing large losses for the operation. By legalizing this, there will be LESS risks. Essentially the two formed a dark alliance.
+ Show Spoiler +
TL;DR
The risks in WoW are well known calculated risks. The system is build to generate minimal guaranteed profits where everyone but the middleman, i.e. the mafia, is being ripped off.
The risks in Diablo 3 are unkown risks. Wether or not it's possible to generate guaranteed profit is unknown. Blizzard is well aware of this very situation and can do whatever the fuck they want to make china farming in diablo 3 EXTREMELY HIGH RISK with low expected profit. Blizzard is a billon $ company and probably hired economy wizards to achieve exactly that.
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On August 01 2011 21:38 Mereel wrote:
i dont know why the real money stuff is a problem...if u dont like it dont use. nobody forces u
and the other argument is that the game is based around getting the best items, and if u can simply buy them the game lost his core playfeature (whatever u want to call it). so if some lazy ass kid comes around with the best items and u know he bought them, why do u even care.
I'm so excited to be able to dump unwanted items into RMA and get cash back.
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On August 01 2011 21:35 Minastir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:19 Senx wrote:
Was there ever any pride or respect in Diablo 2? Duping, MFing, rushing/PLing, pindelbotting and other exploits/tactics has been a part of Diablo 2 since the dawn of time.
Very few people played the game legit, and those that did only played it for a short amount of time because the game got very old very fast.
Diablo was never about pride or being respected by the community, it was just about having fun with friends. Either that or working towards that perfect char using the above exploits (which take up a large portion of diablo 2s history). MF runs, rushing chars through acts and powerleveling are exploits? If you don't like to play the game like that then more power to you, but I love to rush my chars to high levels as soon as possible, get some wealth by doing mf runs and then start trading, because that's the aspect I enjoy the most in D2. I love turning wealth into more wealth by abusing the traits of the barter based economy, that is people who don't know the real value of their items. Are you saying the way I enjoy this game is wrong? Should I apologize for not conforming to your standards of fair play?
/Shrug, I was simply talking about respect and pride, these exploits and strategies were not things that gave a player respect. Respect wasn't even a part of Diablo 2, like at all, which i explained in my previous post.
Its like you said, people did whatever the fuck they wanted for their own gain, which is how the game was designed and how it was later exploited to its maximum. It was never about gaining reputation or respect.
Diablo 3 will be no different, it will be about you and your friends having a blast not giving a fuck about anyone else in the game.
Which is a bit akward for an online game in 2011.
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On August 01 2011 21:38 Mereel wrote:
i dont know why the real money stuff is a problem...if u dont like it dont use. nobody forces u
and the other argument is that the game is based around getting the best items, and if u can simply buy them the game lost his core playfeature (whatever u want to call it). so if some lazy ass kid comes around with the best items and u know he bought them, why do u even care.
im gonna play the game with friends, find my own stuff and enjoy the story, and if i find something cool its gona be awesome. just ignore those kids
That's the thing, no one cares, no one cared in Diablo 2 and no one will care in Diablo 3. And it doesn't matter now since Blizzard made it accesible to everyone in a much easier way. I think it should be the other way around though, that we actually care, we care about the game, we care about the challenges it brings forth. But that's all down the drain now, again. Diablo 3 will be a welfare game, it will be the Sweden of games.
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On August 01 2011 21:32 setzer wrote:
The 10 character limit per account is a fucking joke.
Why would you need more?
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I really don't understand why everybody is QQ'ing about the skill tree issue. This style is really nice and innovative imo. You can only take 6 skills into account which is more than i used in diablo 2. but with the rune system it gets more interesing to be certain. i may get a little dumbed down why all the rage before even seeing it? and i really like removal of the stat improving system. i hated each time leveled up i could never be certain of which point to add and if i gave wrong there was no turning back so i couldn't wear an awesome armor i had for another whole level and it was hard to continue leveling after a point. i'm sure it'll be great.
pvp is a bummer but diablo was about having fun and without being balance i am certain we can continue having fun. (we have starcraft to rage about balance  ) i really like diablo series but i'll try to look at it as a no-brainer which i can play when i come from work tired and my mind is just too full to play starcraft.
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On August 01 2011 21:41 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:35 Minastir wrote:On August 01 2011 21:19 Senx wrote:
Was there ever any pride or respect in Diablo 2? Duping, MFing, rushing/PLing, pindelbotting and other exploits/tactics has been a part of Diablo 2 since the dawn of time.
Very few people played the game legit, and those that did only played it for a short amount of time because the game got very old very fast.
Diablo was never about pride or being respected by the community, it was just about having fun with friends. Either that or working towards that perfect char using the above exploits (which take up a large portion of diablo 2s history). MF runs, rushing chars through acts and powerleveling are exploits? If you don't like to play the game like that then more power to you, but I love to rush my chars to high levels as soon as possible, get some wealth by doing mf runs and then start trading, because that's the aspect I enjoy the most in D2. I love turning wealth into more wealth by abusing the traits of the barter based economy, that is people who don't know the real value of their items. Are you saying the way I enjoy this game is wrong? Should I apologize for not conforming to your standards of fair play? Diablo 3 will be no different, it will be about you and your friends having a blast not giving a fuck about anyone else in the game.
When you end it like that it sounds so retarded and ignorant
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EPT
