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On July 02 2010 02:12 Shikyo wrote:Oh right, I think Gangplank can beat a Soraka/Kassadin lane relatively easily. Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:10 Slaughter wrote:
When ever I play with panth now it seems I have a good game but we lose... just lost when I went 8-0-3. I need good allies for once lol.
Last 3 games
8-0-3
4-1-5
12-4-11
All fucking losses. -_- There probably is something wrong with your carrying as well, try concentrating more on the towers or instructing your allies. Some games you just can't win but you might be playing kind of like I used to play Kassadin, by just killing stuff non-stop and still losing with 25-3 because I wouldn't push any towers when I had the chance.
Your probably right there, I have become a lot better at fighting but I think in overall game sense and knowing what to do when etc im still a real noob.
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On July 02 2010 02:18 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:12 Shikyo wrote:
Oh right, I think Gangplank can beat a Soraka/Kassadin lane relatively easily. Actually there's no way in hell Gangplank can last long enough, especially if he's solo and having to eat 200+ damage every 9 seconds from level 3.
he doesn't have to be solo.
On July 02 2010 02:16 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:08 Shikyo wrote:On July 02 2010 02:01 Southlight wrote:
Kassadin has two fast-rc nukes, and at level 6 if someone gets low he pretty much is guaranteed to score the kill o_O What other heroes do you suggest? Well I seriously think Kassadin is quite underpowered at the moment, for laning with Soraka I guess I'd suggest something like.. sigh, Jax first comes to my mind, but I guess he'd be better with Janna, just like almost anyone else =S I personally would probably lane Tryndamere with Soraka, but that's more of a preference and lategame thing than an attempt at denying with early harrass. Pantheon would probably work the best for that, but he's better with Janna as well. Oh yeah, and Ezreal works great too, although he too is better with Janna. I just really... don't think Kassadin is worth playing in the first place. Null Sphere 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 (+0.7 per ability power) on 9 second cd Force Pulse Magic Damage: 60 / 120 / 180 / 240 / 300 (+0.8 per ability power) on 5 second cd (but needing charges) He's got one of the best AP ratios in the game. He's underpowered because he usually has terrible laning presence (no mana) and can't build up charges, but once he gets rolling he's pretty unstoppable because it's hard killing him, and in teamfights he's got a constant ~4 second cd AoE nuke+snare as well as a crucial silence (because skills are flying all over the place). Usually when you lane with a supporter, particularly a support with as little bite as Soraka (sorry :p but unless 1v2 she's not really gonna kill you) it's hard to do everything, but Kassadin can - he can stop channels, snare (for helping gankers when they come), and run people down. He also counters some of the popular picks (Ezreal and Shaco particularly atm) and gives you map control. By himself I think he's a pretty bad hero - if you take solo mid and hold it you become pretty nasty, but with Soraka (and only Soraka) he's borderline OP IMO.
There's some other problems as well. Kassadin really takes a while to "turn on" and he needs a million billion items. His mana consumption is insane even outside the laning phase and he's essentially a melee mage. He definitely is one of the strongest AP carries in the game, probably only outshined by Heimerdinger in the late late game, but he seriously requires so much to get there that I don't think he's worth it, and Soraka or not, he's out of mana after essentially every gank unless you build something silly like a chalice for him.
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Not being solo is even worse because then he can't get the level advantage needed to make up for being zoned out, unless he has a Soraka with him, in which case that'd be annoying (because of Raise Morale) but I'm pretty sure I can starve out their mana anyways. Again, they're going to be backpedaling and inadverdently being denied exp, unless they decide to charge forth and fight us straight up.
Edit:
I guess the thing to bear in mind that, Kass/Soraka output enough damage that we drove a Soraka/Taric team to have to use Clarity - if they didn't have it, we would have pushed them out/killed them (we were denying them exp up to that point) and gained a huge advantage, which we could have rode by me just leaving to roam and gank. Short of another strong damage-output Soraka/X team or a team with superior range/damage output it's really hard to beat Kass/Soraka. Gangplank doesn't do enough DAMAGE, which means I can and will chip away and grind you to death, and rather fast because Kass spells are on short cd and Soraka (esp double Soraka and a GP spamming skills) charges FP for a double nuke quite often.
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On July 02 2010 02:23 Southlight wrote:
Not being solo is even worse because then he can't get the level advantage needed to make up for being zoned out, unless he has a Soraka with him, in which case that'd be annoying (because of Raise Morale) but I'm pretty sure I can starve out their mana anyways. Again, they're going to be backpedaling and inadverdently being denied exp, unless they decide to charge forth and fight us straight up.
The constant denying is going to make your exp denying extremely difficult because your creeps are going to automatically get closer to his tower. I'm not sure what you can even do to combat that, they'll be near his tower the entire time, and he'll level his heal up first, and assuming he's outleveling you by the normal amount when he's solo... he should survive well enough.
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On July 02 2010 02:08 pokeyAA wrote:
If by some reason we're FINALLY driven back to tower, Smash lolz in and kills them for us :D
lol, I love when teams push 2v2 on sidelanes after I get my SotO.
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Pirate v SoraKass practice game gogo
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Like as the laning starts, Gang's lane has 2 less creeps, your creeps will go to his tower, he'll lasthit them if he knows how to lasthit even under towerfire, and then deny one more, and it'll go on... I don't know how you could deny his exp.
Mini-guide for tower-lasthitting in the early game:
Ranged creeps die to 2 of your lvl 1 raise morale attacks after one tower-hit, the tower's target search pattern is clockwise, so attack those minions once before the tower hits them then lasthit, after you get parrrley you can just kill them after one tower hit with it. melee creeps die to one normal attack after two tower hits. If it seems like a melee minion is being under attack by some minions, attack it once or if possible twice before lasthitting after the first towershot. After you get lvl 1 parrrley you can get a guaranteed lasthit out of all the tough minions. Catapult/cannon/whatever minions are lasthit really easily, just calculate if you need one normal attack in between towerhits and then lasthit.
You'd skill lvl 1 morale lvl 1 parrrley max heal as needed, then I'd max parrrley asap for the extra gold.
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Regarding pantheon, what exactly happens to his lane dominance if he doesn't manage to deny enough exp before level 6? His ulti can't be used to actually fight.
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On July 02 2010 02:20 Shikyo wrote:
There's some other problems as well. Kassadin really takes a while to "turn on" and he needs a million billion items. His mana consumption is insane even outside the laning phase and he's essentially a melee mage. He definitely is one of the strongest AP carries in the game, probably only outshined by Heimerdinger in the late late game, but he seriously requires so much to get there that I don't think he's worth it, and Soraka or not, he's out of mana after essentially every gank unless you build something silly like a chalice for him.
Laning with Soraka dwindles his time needed to "turn on," and by the contrary I find he does worse as the game goes on.
+ Show Spoiler [lolbase links to sorakass games] +
I rarely get "farmed" per se, and I have a tendency to make do with minimal items. I'm also notoriously terrible at getting creep kills when I play Kassadin. I also don't usually get mana items, and tend to be fine ganking and then teamfighting, even without Golem (although when I randomly get Golem I go crazy). I say again, he has one of the strongest, fastest bursts in the game early-game, as well as one of the most useful (as via this burst he gets both a silence and a snare, which does wonders for killing and escaping). The only other nuking option I can think of is Anne, but her disable is much less reliable, she has worse range, and she can't chase through towers as well. If I were as good as Scarletdoom I can see using Karthus/Kogmaw in a Sora/Kar or Kog lane like their premade, but I'm not.
When Gangplank loses 300+ hp every time he uses Raise Morale it's not very sustainable, especially for a solo GP running on a limited amount of mana and HP. If he's going to towerhug and keep only using Raise and Scurvy (which is fine, because an unfarmed GP is useless anyways) then we'll last hit ourselves and push tower down, while I keep harassing GP with Null Sphere.
Edit:
Remember, because a towerhugging GP is no offensive threat, there is absolutely zero hesitation on my part when it comes to trading a nuking combo for a tower hit. If I can land both strikes and I have to eat a tower shot for it I'll do it without batting an eyelash. In fact, I do that a lot anyways regardless of matchup. That means GP is automatically unable to last-hit the ranged creep (because not only is he putting himself at risk of being Sphere/Infused, he also puts himself into Pulse range). And he can't last-hit most of the melee creep because you can Sphere from that range without being hit by tower. The only ones he can "safely" last-hit are the melee creep that overextend.
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On July 02 2010 02:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Regarding pantheon, what exactly happens to his lane dominance if he doesn't manage to deny enough exp before level 6? His ulti can't be used to actually fight.
If he doesn't kill his opponent at lvl 3, 4, or 5 with stun -> HSS that deals 50-75% of their max hp after harrassing with a 100 dmg nuke every 4 seconds, the Pantheon is god-awful.
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On July 02 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Regarding pantheon, what exactly happens to his lane dominance if he doesn't manage to deny enough exp before level 6? His ulti can't be used to actually fight.
If he doesn't kill his opponent at lvl 3, 4, or 5 with stun -> HSS that deals 50-75% of their max hp after harrassing with a 100 dmg nuke every 4 seconds, the Pantheon is god-awful.
At relatively high elo it's very unlikely the Panth will score a kill solo mid. If he does, that other solo mid is a noob. The problem lies in preventing his jump -> kill combo in side lanes, which often is not just a kill but a double kill. Rinse repeat every cd. To that end I agree with ODonnell in that his unparalleled early-game map control is absurd. The whole argument against TF was that it wasn't fair how much map control he extended just by being in the game. Is Pantheon at that point? I really don't know.
Edit:
Yes, I've died to a Panth solo mid as Ashe (in fairness, it was post-level 6 and I didn't expect him to jump into tower to get me from behind). And yes, I thought, HOLY SHIT I'M A NOOB, and felt really embarrassed for the rest of the game. That should really never happen.
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Okay, also mini guide to GP I guess. My summoner name is Chrispysc, I currently have 750ish games under my belt and main gangplank. 186 wins with GP and around 120 losses and have been playing him for a LONG time.
Runes
With Gangplank, I run both yellow and blue runes as mana regen per level. With this I run out of mana constantly while last hitting with parrrley and killing my minions but I will regen it fast enough. For marks I have crit chance runes and for quints I have armour pen. It adds up to 8.4% chance, (10% with masteries) 12 Armour Pen.
Why Crit Chance? Because it's great for both early game laning and late game ownage. a 10% chance to do an insane amount of unexpected burst during the laning phase is insanely good. A 10% to crit to do 300+ damage followed up by ignite can be absolutely devastating. If someone doesn't have cleanse in your lane, shoot them as much as possible and have you finger ready to ignite. Most people will count on you not critting and will sometimes have just low enough health that a crit parrrley and a sudden ignite will score you a kill, it doesn't even matter what ELO you are this is a great way to fuck someone over. It seems like a long shot but you'd be surprised how many kills I've gotten with it. And so for summoner skills bring Ignite and Ghost/Flash (preferably Ghost). You don't need cleanse because you have a built in one, fuck yeah!
Skills
My usual leveling goes as followed: e, q, q, w, q, r then max my parrrley, then put points into citrus fruits if I'm constantly hurt or E if I'm free farming away. This is super important: If you're protecting a jungler at level 1 don't be afraid to put a point in parrrley first, denying a couple creep wont matter too much compared to potentially critting that venturous Ashe trying to fuck Shaco's boxs. Level 1 q will crit for 176 on squishes. Even if you don't crit, just the mere fact that you have a ranged attack at level 1 will be great for jungle protection.
"But Chrispy," you say, "I wants to max my fruits first and heal for a bunch!!  "
Coward! You're a god damn pirate not a pussy ass soraka wanna be, use your gun! I kid...
I USUALLY only get one point in my citrus fruits at level 4 just for the CC removal (ALWAYS get it at level 4 at least, 3 if you're having fighting morgana or some ho like that). HOWEVER, if you are facing a heavy harass lane you're going to have to sacrifice awesome shooting with lame ass fruits. With both blues and yellow as mana regen and doran's ring, you will be able to deny and eat citrus fruits with relative ease. Your last hitting with parrrley will suffer here though, and you'll also be much less of a threat with your Q mid game as well.
Enemy melee minions die to three tower hits, so after the second hit your parrrley will be able to last hit the minions everytime (even at level 1), so do it! Wait for 2 tower hits and stab/shoot. Ranged ones are harder, they take only two shots from the tower and if you try to auto attack them you'll be in range of your opponents.
Note: This is with a laning partner. If you are 1v2 it would be wise to level up your W as needed, although it will slightly gimp you in the early mid game. You'll be a self healing machine rather than a killing one.
For masteries I use 21/6/3. Just make sure you get that extra 10% crit damage and put the rest as you please. The 6 go in defence go towards magic resist and armour, the 3 in utility go in perserverence and ghost.
As for his ult: I really only use his ult maybe 5-6 times in a normal game. That's because I'm very conservative with it and only use it when it's going to do a fuck load of damage. I honestly think this is what makes me a better GP than most. Your ult is going to do an INSANE amount of damage to teamfights in the woods/jungle and can even cut people off making the fight very one sided. Always use your ult in the woods! SO much better than in a lane!
Items
My items vary from from different match ups but I ALWAYS open with doran's ring. It's vital for mana regen and the hp is great too.
Note: If I'm facing a team with 3+ physical DPS I will play tankplank, which is just sunfire cape, atmas, sunfire cape.
1. Doran's Ring + 1 Health pot
2. Avarice Blade + Boots 1 Wait a sec, an item that gives me crit chance, pays for itself (read: free) AND turns into something awesome lategame?
Now under no circumstances shall you go back before you can at least afford ONE avarice blade (Don't go stacking these, that's retarded). Well not really, but try not to go back until you have 1100 gold please. Also, if you're almost level 6, try to tough it out - it's definitely worth the wait.
3. Infinity Edge: Cloak of agility or BF Sword + Mercs tread/Serkers/Ninja tabi if there's a TF (LOL Dodge gold card)
Depending on how hard you farmed, you should be able to afford Cloak of agility or BF Sword. If you have 1850 gold, get the BF sword. If you don't you can get the Cloak of agility. Either of them work fine. Also, you can stay on boots 1 with Pirate for a long ass time so don't worry too much if you don't have enough for BF Sword + boots 2.
4. Banshees Veil. Now I used to do a bunch of crazy stuff and try to get 100% crit chance, but don't! If they have a lot of casters get Banshees veil! It's HP bonus will help you with the next item!
5. Atma's Impaler This item is so damn good. It's armour, crit chance and a fucking BF Sword for ~800 gold! Fuck yeah! Right after you get atma's, pop a red pot and slay.
6. Turn that avarice blade into a Youmoos Ghostblade By now it paid for itself and was a free 12% crit chance. Sweet.
7. Trinity Force/Frozen Mallet Sell your doran's ring and turn it into a phage and then into either one of these.
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i've seen pantheon in like 20/25 games i've played over this past week, it's ridiculous. it's getting frustrating too, since soloing against panth is so weird/difficult. i always solo mid since i only play with friends and i find it funny soloing mid as teemo, but it's been fuckin frustrating as of late. i may have lost solo mid and pantheon went like 10/0 but we still won because he's a fuckin shitty team fight hero haha. like we were getting ownt by 20/0/4 pantheon at 25 minutes and it was 4v5 since one of our guys left, we had no tank and still won because some pantheons just don't know how to come in during/after a fight instead of initiating.
also, there have been kass/sorakas everywhere. bitches really try hard... and still get destroyed by teemo anivia.
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New post since the edit wouldn't be noticed.
On July 02 2010 02:44 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:20 Shikyo wrote:
There's some other problems as well. Kassadin really takes a while to "turn on" and he needs a million billion items. His mana consumption is insane even outside the laning phase and he's essentially a melee mage. He definitely is one of the strongest AP carries in the game, probably only outshined by Heimerdinger in the late late game, but he seriously requires so much to get there that I don't think he's worth it, and Soraka or not, he's out of mana after essentially every gank unless you build something silly like a chalice for him. Laning with Soraka dwindles his time needed to "turn on," and by the contrary I find he does worse as the game goes on. + Show Spoiler [lolbase links to sorakass games] +I rarely get "farmed" per se, and I have a tendency to make do with minimal items. I'm also notoriously terrible at getting creep kills when I play Kassadin. I also don't usually get mana items, and tend to be fine ganking and then teamfighting, even without Golem (although when I randomly get Golem I go crazy). I say again, he has one of the strongest, fastest bursts in the game early-game, as well as one of the most useful (as via this burst he gets both a silence and a snare, which does wonders for killing and escaping). The only other nuking option I can think of is Anne, but her disable is much less reliable, she has worse range, and she can't chase through towers as well. If I were as good as Scarletdoom I can see using Karthus/Kogmaw in a Sora/Kar or Kog lane like their premade, but I'm not. When Gangplank loses 300+ hp every time he uses Raise Morale it's not very sustainable, especially for a solo GP running on a limited amount of mana and HP. If he's going to towerhug and keep only using Raise and Scurvy (which is fine, because an unfarmed GP is useless anyways) then we'll last hit ourselves and push tower down, while I keep harassing GP with Null Sphere. Edit: Remember, because a towerhugging GP is no offensive threat, there is absolutely zero hesitation on my part when it comes to trading a nuking combo for a tower hit. If I can land both strikes and I have to eat a tower shot for it I'll do it without batting an eyelash. In fact, I do that a lot anyways regardless of matchup. That means GP is automatically unable to last-hit the ranged creep (because not only is he putting himself at risk of being Sphere/Infused, he also puts himself into Pulse range). And he can't last-hit most of the melee creep because you can Sphere from that range without being hit by tower. The only ones he can "safely" last-hit are the melee creep that overextend.
Okay firstly, you don't need to be close to the opponents to do raise morale, I normally run behind my tower to quickly kill my cannon minion usually. Second, where do you get 300 hp loss from? 2 minions are gone from the lane as the laning phase begins, and you'll be lucky to be lvl 2's when the gang is 3, and the difference is only going to grow. The fact he's soloing means they're going to have a jungler, and when gang hits lvl 6 and you both are barely lvl 4(where your burst still isn't anything like 300 dmg), it's a brilliant time to gank the lane because you're completely pushed up to the gang's lane. With proper mana regen Remove Scurvy and some hp potions can combat the burst until his level advantage is so high it doesn't matter much.
The problem is you won't get harrassed, but denying exp and money by constantly using raise morale is harrassing in a way, and a dual lane being unable to shut your solo lane down is an advantage in and of itself. Not to mention, at the low levels Gangplank will only eat one of your harrass comboes during the whole last-hitting phase, and he can just remove scurvy most of it back. He has health potions, too.
After that he'll already have Parrrley and the last-hitting becomes a lot easier. Remember that he doesn't need to get every single lasthit to be ahead of you in money, since you have 0 chance of killing any of the 40 gold catapult minions, and parrrley also gives extra gold. The jungler also is going to come gank and give some breathing room at some point if he's halfway decent, and with you both being at a relatively low lvl and the lane being at our tower and the jungler hopefully having ghost, red buff, and also gangplank's ulti, it's highly possible that one of you might even end up dying.
Assuming gang starts with Meki pendant like I'd do if I was expecting an extremely tough lane, he can heal himself every time the cooldown is up and still deny every cannon minion from you. There's still 2 hp potions for a total of 400 health that you can recover before your scurvy is high enough level to help you through your full combo, but the fact is that you both will be of a lot lower level than the gang and even a normal sidelane would. Assuming gang and the jungler can hit before Kass gets lvl 6, he won't have a good escape mechanism and might be in quite a bit of trouble with gang's ulti assisting.
Oh right and yeah, Pantheon with Janna or Soraka is another lane that imo beats that.
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On July 02 2010 01:46 pokeyAA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 23:09 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 15:58 pokeyAA wrote:
My Soraka build, critique please :D
9/21/0
cleanse/heal
Runes: Magic Resist Per Level Red and Blues, MP/5 seals, Quint Health
I decided rushing frozen heart isn't a good idea. Too squishy and it takes a while to finish. So...
Mana Manipulator (helps feed the selfish mana whore Kass)
First trip back, Giant's belt
Boot 1, Soul Shroud
Glacial Shroud , Merc Treads
Frozen Heart
Game should be over
If not, maybe banshees, GA, whatever
Reasoning: Defense Masteries lets me not die now that I dont get Doran's ring and rush straight for shroud. Cleanse/Heal helps with that as well. Mana Manipulator to start as early Soraka is mana hungry. Should have enough first trip back for Giant's belt, boot 1 if doing well.
Soul Shroud+Frozen Heart gives me HP, Armor, 40% CD reduction, 25% less attack speed aura for enemies, 15% CD to allies.
Merc Treads, Magic Resist Per Levels, Soraka's passive to cover MR. I've mentioned before that my Soraka build is radically different from yours, I'll try to explain my reasoning: I don't get CD reduction items, so I go for more CD glyphs / masteries. In particular, flat CD glyphs and a 9/0/21 mastery build, for ~15% CD reduction from the get go. I go for Magic pen. marks and run cleanse/ignite, levelling heal / infuse and giving priority to infuse; if I'm running with Kass, the burst I can provide with Ignite + Infuse + one autoattack can make a difference between getting a kill or not. With no mana problems from a high level infuse, I buy boots + 1 health pot (for levels 1-2 where healing 200 HP can still be taxing) and a sight ward. I find that a sight ward + boots are by far the most effective investments in survivability I can make at level 1, allowing me to survive ganks for a long time in my lane. It also lets me harass with Infuse (whenever I don't need it for mana regen) much better, and catch up to a fleeing enemy to use Ignite. I go for AP because even though Soraka's Wish has been nerfed, what she does in teamfights is: a. Heal, and b. Silence I also add a little burst if I happen to ignite whoever I silence, but since most of what I'll do is heal, having 150 AP gives my Astral Blessing and Wish roughly 50% more burst healing, which can definitely make the difference between saving an ally or not. For items, I finish Mercury Treads then go for Mejai's and Leviathan. I have to play very careful to not die, and I usually die very little, getting enough assists to get to 12 charges on average in a game (sometimes 20, sometimes just 5). Since I don't get a lot of gold on Soraka, I'd rather go for cheap items that can give me a lot of benefit in those two; after that, I'll go for Rylai's or GA depending on whether my team already has a Frozen Mallet / Rylay's to permasnare a fleeing opponent or not. Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heart could also work instead of Rylai's / GA now that I think about it. I'm at about 200 wins 150 losses, which aren't very impressive stats compared to yours, but my Soraka winrate is at over 70% with about a hundred games played, and I really like my build  I think the difference might be in playstyle and intent. Laning with Kass, we play a very aggressive laning stage. We zone out the enemy team and deny them exp and last hits, and Kass rushes out and silence balls whenever he can when the CD is down. That means I have to constantly infuse him to keep his mana up, infuse myself to keep my mana up, and astral blessing him when enemies try and retaliate. I do not have the luxury of infusing the enemy team unless I help try to kill a person, or if we're temporarily retreating. I too level infuse first, something like 3 infuse, 2, heal before level 6. Even then its hard to keep mana up. There are also situations when Kass gets low health, and I need to shield him against enemy attacks if they suddenly try and burst us down by running in front of projectiles thrown at him, etc. I really do not see how you have enough survivability with just early treads and mejais. Also, since Soraka hardly gets any kills, you're very dependent on getting a lot of assists to build up your 2 snowball stacks. If your team is struggling, youre in a very very bad situation. I dont know about you, but my scores are usually like 1/2/8-16 at the end of games. I think my main issue with your build is survivablity. You can't afford to be aggressive running around with only mejais and boots, and god help you if the enemy team has someone fast/blinky to focus you. BTW whats your summoner id?
Jielhar, US server. Could you add me to the list, Southlight?
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Kay, three questions:
How do you face a jungler when you are also jungler? Especially if its the same jungler for example WW vs WW jungling. Do you have to rely on your teammates? Also, what happens if you are a slower jungler for example amumu vs WW jungling?
What is a good build for heimer? I'm pretty sure that rushing zhona's ring is great. Is it better to go KLP -> DFG later on or meki -> chalice (can you even stay in lane with amplifying tome without running out of mana)? I've been running TP and clarity as summoner spells... is there a better combination? Also, after zhona's, I have no idea what to get. I was looking for an hp+ap item, but the only items I could find were RoA and Rylais. Since I rush Zhona's? I don't know if RoA is a good choice mid-game, and Rylais slow doesn't add anything with heimers ult.
@Southlight: Did you find an optimal way to jungle with Rammus? I would try it myself, but I don't have the champ yet...
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On July 02 2010 03:05 Shikyo wrote:
Okay firstly, you don't need to be close to the opponents to do raise morale, I normally run behind my tower to quickly kill my cannon minion usually. Second, where do you get 300 hp loss from? 2 minions are gone from the lane as the laning phase begins, and you'll be lucky to be lvl 2's when the gang is 3, and the difference is only going to grow. The fact he's soloing means they're going to have a jungler, and when gang hits lvl 6 and you both are barely lvl 4(where your burst still isn't anything like 300 dmg), it's a brilliant time to gank the lane because you're completely pushed up to the gang's lane. With proper mana regen Remove Scurvy and some hp potions can combat the burst until his level advantage is so high it doesn't matter much.
At level 2 if you go into an area where I can Pulse you you'll take 70 + 80 + Infuse (if so desired) + random autoattack hits. You'll easily take over 300 damage as you run away. Junglers struggle to gank this lane because they're essentially 1v2ing (gimped GP is gimped) against a snarebot. The only time I've seen Soraka die is when they gank with a level 6 warwick double-buff with ult with a chain stun (ie. Taric) - sometimes he makes it back to tower, sometimes he dies at the tower, etc. In this case, if someone ganks, we'd walk out of GP's ult and then turn around and try to kill you two o/
On July 02 2010 03:05 Shikyo wrote:
The problem is you won't get harrassed, but denying exp and money by constantly using raise morale is harrassing in a way, and a dual lane being unable to shut your solo lane down is an advantage in and of itself. Not to mention, at the low levels Gangplank will only eat one of your harrass comboes during the whole last-hitting phase, and he can just remove scurvy most of it back. He has health potions, too.
I don't think you understand the casting range of Kassadin. Unless you're standing behind your tower, Kassadin can Null Sphere you without being hit by a tower. That means if you're trying to last-hit by attacking creep with your auto-attack, you're going to get hit at least once. If you try to last-hit ranged creep with auto-attack, you'll get hit with a full combo.
After that he'll already have Parrrley and the last-hitting becomes a lot easier. Remember that he doesn't need to get every single lasthit to be ahead of you in money, since you have 0 chance of killing any of the 40 gold catapult minions, and parrrley also gives extra gold. The jungler also is going to come gank and give some breathing room at some point if he's halfway decent, and with you both being at a relatively low lvl and the lane being at our tower and the jungler hopefully having ghost, red buff, and also gangplank's ulti, it's highly possible that one of you might even end up dying.
Neither Pokey nor I really bother with last-hitting, so that's not an issue. The issue is where your infinite mana comes from having to deal with all the long-ranged harassment if you're using all 3 spells on cooldown, and how you're going to keep your tower alive.
Oh right and yeah, Pantheon with Janna or Soraka is another lane that imo beats that.
Actually, we destroy it, and pretty handily. Double silence means there's no heartseeker shot from Pantheon means gimped Pantheon. Unfortunately the stun and the spear don't outdamage Pulse + Null, and Soraka wins the attrition war against Janna by a long shot. You can look at the youtube vids of my game against cfangnasty if you wanna see how badly Janna gets destroyed by Soraka in terms of lasting power (I think their Janna ran out of juice in about a minute).
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On July 02 2010 03:07 Misder wrote:
Kay, three questions:
How do you face a jungler when you are also jungler? Especially if its the same jungler for example WW vs WW jungling. Do you have to rely on your teammates? Also, what happens if you are a slower jungler for example amumu vs WW jungling?
What is a good build for heimer? I'm pretty sure that rushing zhona's ring is great. Is it better to go KLP -> DFG later on or meki -> chalice (can you even stay in lane with amplifying tome without running out of mana)? I've been running TP and clarity as summoner spells... is there a better combination? Also, after zhona's, I have no idea what to get. I was looking for an hp+ap item, but the only items I could find were RoA and Rylais. Since I rush Zhona's? I don't know if RoA is a good choice mid-game, and Rylais slow doesn't add anything with heimers ult.
@Southlight: Did you find an optimal way to jungle with Rammus? I would try it myself, but I don't have the champ yet...
Ask your teammates to ward their jungle/ward yourself and try to snag his creeps when possible. Don't ever 1v1 warwick with another jungler because he'll destroy you. I've never played a jungling Amumu so I don't really know, but wards help.
On Heimer I'd just get Doran's Ring into Tear into Zhonya into 4 Archangels. If you want hp, I'd get tear into RoA into Zhonya into 3 Archangels. No it's not a joke, but you can just get one Arch and go like Rylai/Void instead. I'm not the best heimer player, though, so take that with a grain of salt, but he absolutely adores mana and mana regen. Deathfire grasp might be good, too.
EDIT: yawn
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On July 02 2010 02:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Regarding pantheon, what exactly happens to his lane dominance if he doesn't manage to deny enough exp before level 6? His ulti can't be used to actually fight.
um, the simple answer is that if I simply don't fail to deny exp in 80% of the matchups. in the majority of the others, I either tend to outfarm, or my opponent has opened red pot vs. my boots or something along those lines so that I'm still ending up ahead when their pot wears off. it usually doesn't come in the form of killing anymore. since I've gotten up in ELO, I mostly win mid via pushing into their tower to get their lane pushing via tower shots (also makes last hitting harder, then zoning them out of exp range.
On July 02 2010 02:53 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:On July 02 2010 02:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Regarding pantheon, what exactly happens to his lane dominance if he doesn't manage to deny enough exp before level 6? His ulti can't be used to actually fight.
If he doesn't kill his opponent at lvl 3, 4, or 5 with stun -> HSS that deals 50-75% of their max hp after harrassing with a 100 dmg nuke every 4 seconds, the Pantheon is god-awful. At relatively high elo it's very unlikely the Panth will score a kill solo mid. If he does, that other solo mid is a noob. The problem lies in preventing his jump -> kill combo in side lanes, which often is not just a kill but a double kill. Rinse repeat every cd. To that end I agree with ODonnell in that his unparalleled early-game map control is absurd. The whole argument against TF was that it wasn't fair how much map control he extended just by being in the game. Is Pantheon at that point? I really don't know. Edit: Yes, I've died to a Panth solo mid as Ashe (in fairness, it was post-level 6 and I didn't expect him to jump into tower to get me from behind). And yes, I thought, HOLY SHIT I'M A NOOB, and felt really embarrassed for the rest of the game. That should really never happen.
is pantheon at that point? only if TF and Shen are also both at that point. it's the nature of global teleports, you either take them all out entirely or you stop complaining about the one that has a huge channel and a big red warning circle.
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On July 02 2010 03:07 Misder wrote:
Kay, three questions:
How do you face a jungler when you are also jungler? Especially if its the same jungler for example WW vs WW jungling. Do you have to rely on your teammates? Also, what happens if you are a slower jungler for example amumu vs WW jungling?
What is a good build for heimer? I'm pretty sure that rushing zhona's ring is great. Is it better to go KLP -> DFG later on or meki -> chalice (can you even stay in lane with amplifying tome without running out of mana)? I've been running TP and clarity as summoner spells... is there a better combination? Also, after zhona's, I have no idea what to get. I was looking for an hp+ap item, but the only items I could find were RoA and Rylais. Since I rush Zhona's? I don't know if RoA is a good choice mid-game, and Rylais slow doesn't add anything with heimers ult.
@Southlight: Did you find an optimal way to jungle with Rammus? I would try it myself, but I don't have the champ yet...
1) Jungling vs Jungling is rough. First of all your team has to either protect you when you start out (unless you're starting out a relatively safe spot ie. between your two jungle towers) and/or interfere with their jungler. Particularly in the case of Shaco the level 1 pre-spawn interference war is quite crucial - if you can pop Shaco's JITBs he's set back a lot, but if you don't pop them Shaco's got a HUGE advantage. Other than that you'll usually find yourself okay - teammates can help defend against further interference and they can also harass the other jungler (ie. keeping them busy every time they try to Golem). There's only so much you can do as a jungler. My #1 rule of thumb for jungling, though, is that the jungler must buy the ward for dragon.
1.5) Amumu is not a slower jungler, actually he's quite fast. Most junglers are around the same speed, at least the junglers you usually see being used (Amumu, Warwick, Shaco, Fiddle). There's also not much you can do about it anyways.
2) Rylai, Zhonya, and lots of Doran's Rings are what I see most often.
3) You can start with Golem with Rammus, and then after that he becomes one of the fastest junglers in the game, but I've never tried it without being level 30 and not having proper runes so I don't know if they're required or not.
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EPT
