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On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game.
If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them.
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On September 30 2010 15:45 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:39 ProdT wrote:
Yeah everyone is viable, but it depends on whether or not your opponents do dumb things, is this what I'm hearing? So basically....Those heroes are viable in competitive games, we are back to square one. Now at the peak of high play you have players who are so skilled or place that one golden ult that affects the entire game that heroes are as dominant as they usually are, but they still play a huge role. I think Vlad had alot to do with why they won but that's my opinion. No, I'm saying a handful of heroes are reliant on dumb opponents (ie. noobstomp), like Kat and Nunu (bad players don't interrupt) and Jax/Trynd (requires people hitting them) and to an extent Eve, although Eve can leave her mark on some pretty decent-level games too if people aren't being careful. Those heroes will struggle to ever be "prominent" because the nature of their skills screw over dumb players so much that making them viable against good players would call for some complete reworking of their mechanics to not obliterate newbies. When Katarina was becoming less and less able to hold her weight in high-elo player (like 8 months ago) Riot consistently nerfed her, because she was pentakilling low-elo too much. Does that cater to the casual fans? Yes. Does that really affect high-elo players? Debateable, it just means she might as well not exist, but with so many hero choices it's not really a big deal except to people who wanted to play her. Tough luck. Eventually they came up with some solutions that revitalized Kat in high-elo without really changing her in low elo. Great, wonderful, but that's easier said than done, and for the most part no one really cares (again, except for the people who play her). The only things people up top REALLY care about are the heroes that merit insta-bans, but Riot has been pretty damn good with bludgeoning those back to earth (even if it may take them a while). Rikimaru (AFAIK) blows in competitive DotA, yet i don't see you bringing up Rikimaru as an example of DotA being a terrible, terrible game and catering to casual fans.
Well thats because the game Katarina is in is far tougher to be considered viable in, Katarina is an amazing hero that can dish out alot of aoe dmg and amazing DOESNT HAVE MANA (alot of people take this lightly) whereas in Riki's case you have to suck AND manage your mana correctly but I still think hes better in his game than Jax in his, oops I made another post.
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On September 30 2010 15:45 Southlight wrote:
Rikimaru (AFAIK) blows in competitive DotA, yet i don't see you bringing up Rikimaru as an example of DotA being a terrible, terrible game and catering to casual fans.
nah, even riki has had his moments in high level games
it was like less than a year ago iirc that some team (man it's been a while since i followed competitive dota) put riki solo mid and just wiped the floor with the other team. the other guys just had no idea how to contain a riki who hit 6 when the rest of the field was level 3, and he had a field day.
but you are correct that riki is primarily a pubstomper, he's got incredible stats and perma-invis, which most low-level players just can't handle
speaking of low level players, today in my couple lowbie games i played, rammus was banned in every game. is that happening on the higher levels now too? what brought this on?
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yo, so I brought up fed void as an example of a retarded carry in dota that just can't happen in LoL in a conversation with someone and they jumped on me about how Void isn't a good hero or something and I just sorta backed off because I don't know DotA too well. Was I crazy in thinking that he basically could permastun everyone who was relevant, kill them, and then clean up the scraps via permastun and blinking around? I thought he was one of the examples of a retarded carry, but I don't really have the experience to talk about it in real DotA play so I'm looking for some feedback on that.
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On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them.
Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold. And most carries in LoL have some kind of escape mechanism in the form of a blink or something, or SOMETHING to help them get out, know what sniper and flint get? Nothing.
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ive been seeing a couple rammus bans too, weird imo
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No, Katarina was considered unviable because her Q, W, and E sucked so she was an R-button hero. Which sucks because that's a channeling skill..
This was further compounded by the existence of a glitch that made it so R didn't damage from the onset - it had like a one-second lag before it actually started damaging (like one of those minigun-thingies in video games that require you to spin it a bit before it starts spewing damage).
It's certainly debatable what ultimately made her "viable" again. Was it the changes to Killer Instinct that significantly raised the damage she did overall? Was it the glitch fix that made it so barring an instant-disable she'd still output heavy damage? redtooth would obviously argue that it was the overall increasing of her damage, as chain Shunpo/BBs etc. do a lot of damage.
Now the problem is that her damage doesn't scale well enough (via CD) to kill tankier heroes, which means during the tank fotm she struggled to really do anything. That's on top of redtooth's pointed explanation that he can't play her as much because she requires a solo lane (esp. mid) and that she's a lot more up-and-down than his other favored hero (Nidalee).
Edit:
Before you say it, though:
They can't easily just raise her damage ratios because she's a pretty good hero in low-elo play where people are too stupid to build survival on heroes that aren't tanks and too stupid to disable her, etc. So she's stuck in limbo. Which is my point.
Edit2:
By the way Vlad didn't really win EPIK the game. You may have been watching a different one. It was Tristana free-farming for like 5 minutes, combined with the nasty DPS combo of Trist+Janna+Nunu (loooooooooots of damage) and the territorial control afforded by double AoE ult + double big AoE snare (Vlad/Nunu), an on-call snare (Nunu), and Janna's obscene teamfight control. You can argue that Vlad kept them in the game until Trist farmed up, and that's a fair thing to say because that team was definitely not build around Vlad (no synergy between Vlad, Janna, and Nunu). However you're also looking at a chap with like a crazy 96% win rate on Vlad.
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On September 30 2010 15:52 ProdT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them. Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold.
also the carry is much less effective since supports can get almost as much gold as carries. void is just as bad as troll :s farmed (see, i didn't say fed since you can farm way harder in hon) carries just dominate games in hon whereas farmed carries in lol can't 1v5. can you think of the hell that would happen if void came to lol?
the carry effect is way less prevalent in lol then it is in hon because heroes scale much better and supports don't scale at all. don't know where nidalee farming a side lane has anything to do with this discussion, it's an effective strategy if your team knows what they're doing and can defend. dragons have been warded since the start of time
basically 2 words summarizes why hon carries can 1v5 and lol can't, shrunken head
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lol, the post i wanted to respond to is like 2 pages back, and i just looked at it like 15 mins ago haha,
anyways, why the bloody hell do ppl keep saying that they have 'problems farming' as sona? WTF, what gives? she easily has one of the best animations of all the casters for last hitting, srsly, i love it. To further compound that, she has a low cooldown, low mana cost nuke that is ez mode farming, so why on earth do ppl say its 'hard' to get farm? The only reason i would ever not cs with her is if i was partnered with some1 else who needs it more.
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She has trouble farming because she can't clear creep, she can only kill creep one at a time (barring a high-powered AP for Q), and compared to most heroes that's really, really slow.
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On September 30 2010 15:56 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:52 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them. Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold. also the carry is much less effective since supports can get almost as much gold as carries. void is just as bad as troll :s farmed (see, i didn't say fed since you can farm way harder in hon) carries just dominate games in hon whereas farmed carries in lol can't 1v5. the carry effect is way less prevalent in lol then it is in hon because heroes scale much better and supports don't scale at all. don't know where nidalee farming a side lane has anything to do with this discussion, it's an effective strategy if your team knows what they're doing and can defend. dragons have been warded since the start of time basically 2 words summarizes why hon carries can 1v5 and lol can't, shrunken head
Sorry but the sheer ridiculousness of these carries in LoL makes the carry effect worse. I don't know what your trying to prove, An Ezreal can solo heroes pretty easily, escape, and farm all by himself, no hero in HoN can do all of those. And if they try to farm then they lose gold when they die, actually setting them back. Also theres snowballing In LoL which alone almost shifts the argument over into HoN's favor.
I guess what im trying to say is, team efforts can bring down a fed carry in HoN much better than in LoL, with its crazy escape mechanisms (summoner spells, skills that the carry have).
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On September 30 2010 16:00 ProdT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:56 shawster wrote:On September 30 2010 15:52 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them. Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold. also the carry is much less effective since supports can get almost as much gold as carries. void is just as bad as troll :s farmed (see, i didn't say fed since you can farm way harder in hon) carries just dominate games in hon whereas farmed carries in lol can't 1v5. the carry effect is way less prevalent in lol then it is in hon because heroes scale much better and supports don't scale at all. don't know where nidalee farming a side lane has anything to do with this discussion, it's an effective strategy if your team knows what they're doing and can defend. dragons have been warded since the start of time basically 2 words summarizes why hon carries can 1v5 and lol can't, shrunken head Sorry but the sheer ridiculousness of these carries in LoL makes the carry effect worse. I don't know what your trying to prove, An Ezreal can solo heroes pretty easily, escape, and farm all by himself, no hero in HoN can do all of those. And if they try to farm then they lose gold when they die, actually setting them back. Also theres snowballing In LoL which alone almost shifts the argument over into HoN's favor.
but 1 mistake and ezreal dies in 1 second whereas a fed void can jump in pop shrunken then solo 5 guys. ezreal can't solo a xin with red or an akali, period but akali gets wrecked by tanks. it's a balance. i think what im trying to get at is that lol carries are less like carries then in hon where it's literally if you can get enough farm on your carry you'll win. lol carries are effective mid-early game and they have a good late game, whereas in hon carries are weaker early and sometimes needs to be babysat.
hon doesn't snowball now? howww a kill and farm gets you snowballed
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sona isn't the kind of champ that wants to sit in lane and farm all day tho, and you can't just burst a wave and move on, so in general, she will have much less cs then most other champions. Early game, yes, she will keep up, but when it starts moving into the phases where you roam/push/dragon most of the time she can't keep up.
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On September 30 2010 15:43 Kaneh wrote:
I don't get why AP is so good compared to CDR though. 2250 doesn't get you much more dmg or healing via AP, and most AP leaves her being a little too squishy. The items are relatively cheap for the CDR, or i guess you could just build a glacial and leave it at that while you get some hp.
2250 gold for 430hp, 10% CDR, infinite mana, and some regen to your team doesn't seem like all that bad a deal. it's still a pretty beefy amount of hp
What items do you suggest?
Sorry I forgot to reply to this:
Her skills are terrible on their own (gooooooooooo 150hp heal!) so you need to buff them, low AP ratios be damned. This is urgent because beyond a certain point the only thing she brings to a fight is a dinky heal, a dinky double-nuke, and a CC that lasts like 1 second through Treads. AP also lets her farm faster (provided you can one-shot creep with Q) which is important, and so beyond that she needs to make herself felt in a teamfight.
I'm actually beginning to gravitate towards useful auras (Shroud, Aegis, Frozen, etc.) because her AP ratios are way too bad end-game (hence your skills aren't really doing to do anything) but I'm not sure. I've actually personally gone back to preferring Janna - she just scales better as the game goes on ;/
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On September 30 2010 16:02 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 16:00 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:56 shawster wrote:On September 30 2010 15:52 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them. Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold. also the carry is much less effective since supports can get almost as much gold as carries. void is just as bad as troll :s farmed (see, i didn't say fed since you can farm way harder in hon) carries just dominate games in hon whereas farmed carries in lol can't 1v5. the carry effect is way less prevalent in lol then it is in hon because heroes scale much better and supports don't scale at all. don't know where nidalee farming a side lane has anything to do with this discussion, it's an effective strategy if your team knows what they're doing and can defend. dragons have been warded since the start of time basically 2 words summarizes why hon carries can 1v5 and lol can't, shrunken head Sorry but the sheer ridiculousness of these carries in LoL makes the carry effect worse. I don't know what your trying to prove, An Ezreal can solo heroes pretty easily, escape, and farm all by himself, no hero in HoN can do all of those. And if they try to farm then they lose gold when they die, actually setting them back. Also theres snowballing In LoL which alone almost shifts the argument over into HoN's favor. but 1 mistake and ezreal dies in 1 second whereas a fed void can jump in pop shrunken then solo 5 guys. ezreal can't solo a xin with red or an akali, period but akali gets wrecked by tanks. it's a balance. i think what im trying to get at is that lol carries are less like carries then in hon where it's literally if you can get enough farm on your carry you'll win. hon doesn't snowball now? howww a kill and farm gets you snowballed
You get a bonus when you snowball in LoL, you get gold AND a stronger AD, HP, AP or whatever your snowballing, and you can lose the stacks, but you can't lose the gold. Also comparing heroes to each other to discuss balance doesnt exactly work out, I mean ofc a xin with red beats an ezreal, just like how a dark lady can solo a glacius. ITs just that the ezreal has a higher chance to escape with flash or ghost or his blink or w/e, and even if he dies its not that big of a deal, whereas in HoN you only have glacvius freeze to try and pray youll get away, and a slow. You have no flash or anything like that to help you, AND you lose gold.
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ionno, back when i was playing her a good bit a few days ago, i was easily hitting 150 or so cs easily by the end of the game (with roaming and all that shit)
if you compare her to soraka or even taric imo, she creeps a loooot better, and she creeps REALLY bloody well in laning phase
edit: @ prodt, i was gonna avoid jumping in on this, but comparing glacius to ezreal is like comparing an airplane to a goddamn house, where the fuck are you going wiht this
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The only stack item you still see sometimes these days is Soulstealer (because it's relatively a better AP item for its cost, whereas with AD/HP you can get better AD/HP items) and even then not that much because only a handful of heroes can maintain them. So, yeah, not really a good argument.
Incidentally Ezreal has nice escapes but his range sucks so he's a pretty bad "carry."
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On September 30 2010 16:06 ProdT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 16:02 shawster wrote:On September 30 2010 16:00 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:56 shawster wrote:On September 30 2010 15:52 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:46 red_ wrote:On September 30 2010 15:37 ProdT wrote:On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night). No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game. If you think the carry effect is worse in LoL(I'm reading this under the belief you mean worse = champs carry harder in LoL, so metaphorically worse not literally?) then you are flat out insane. LoL has absolutely nothing that compares to a fed PA/Void/Troll. Even in competition the game went through entire meta game shifts designed around babysitting your 1 carry so he could get retardedly strong(the first team to really exploit this was the russian team that ran Sniper solo mid with techies babysitting from ganks) while everyone else did silly things like try to synergize team comps, silly them. Troll isn;t in HoN, and I completely agree, Troll was retarded. The thing is that those games have a competitive scene that is far more developed so ofc it seems more brutal, its a far more competitive game. Whereas in LoL noone puts enough emphasis on the nidalee farming the solo lane, the jungler taking the dragon (well they do nowadays but still), because the competitive scene isnt developed yet, im sure in the future they will develop all sorts of counter strategies but right now carrys in LoL gets fed, and theres no goin back. You can't kill the carry in LoL and try to set him back, he will have the same amount of gold. also the carry is much less effective since supports can get almost as much gold as carries. void is just as bad as troll :s farmed (see, i didn't say fed since you can farm way harder in hon) carries just dominate games in hon whereas farmed carries in lol can't 1v5. the carry effect is way less prevalent in lol then it is in hon because heroes scale much better and supports don't scale at all. don't know where nidalee farming a side lane has anything to do with this discussion, it's an effective strategy if your team knows what they're doing and can defend. dragons have been warded since the start of time basically 2 words summarizes why hon carries can 1v5 and lol can't, shrunken head Sorry but the sheer ridiculousness of these carries in LoL makes the carry effect worse. I don't know what your trying to prove, An Ezreal can solo heroes pretty easily, escape, and farm all by himself, no hero in HoN can do all of those. And if they try to farm then they lose gold when they die, actually setting them back. Also theres snowballing In LoL which alone almost shifts the argument over into HoN's favor. but 1 mistake and ezreal dies in 1 second whereas a fed void can jump in pop shrunken then solo 5 guys. ezreal can't solo a xin with red or an akali, period but akali gets wrecked by tanks. it's a balance. i think what im trying to get at is that lol carries are less like carries then in hon where it's literally if you can get enough farm on your carry you'll win. hon doesn't snowball now? howww a kill and farm gets you snowballed You get a bonus when you snowball in LoL, you get gold AND a stronger AD, HP, AP or whatever your snowballing, and you can lose the stacks, but you can't lose the gold. Also comparing heroes to each other to discuss balance doesnt exactly work out, I mean ofc a xin with red beats an ezreal, just like how a dark lady can solo a glacius. ITs just that the ezreal has a higher chance to escape with flash or ghost or his blink or w/e, and even if he dies its not that big of a deal, whereas in HoN you only have glacvius freeze to try and pray youll get away, and a slow. You have no flash or anything like that to help you, AND you lose gold.
glacius on dark lady? glacius is a support hero and ward bitch.
that's more like soraka vs xin zhao , not ezreal vs xin zhao lol. maybe something like flint on dark lady but xin is actually somewhat viable. actually i don't know a hero that's comparable to glacius since he's just worthless aside from good early game and global aura.
i found a comparison, imagine an urgot who has 1/2 of the hp he has and can stun people
yeah
stacks make your early game considerably weaker
escape mechanisms - point taken i think it's pretty true ghost flash is really popular atm
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I know you did not just shit talk my haruhi
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Ezreal: good/great early game, dwindling mid-game, invisible late-game.
What a carry! /sarcasm
Edit:
Before you go on about how he was one of the best carries in the game, though, you might realize he never really was.
He simply snowballed really well off of his crazy early-game (when they for some reason believed Mystic Shot was weak, also the Sheen bug), and Essence Flux was an incredible support spell. There's a reason why prior to the AD boom most people played him as AP, despite a handful of players kicking ass with AD Ezreal. However his terrible attack range made him ineffective as an actual carry because tanks would just beat him off of a fight, unless his snowball was insane.
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EPT
