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On September 30 2010 15:18 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 15:16 ProdT wrote:
Yeah, I think if they let Jax dodge abilities again he would fit right in with the current lineup of heroes being released, don't you? The point is the game is getting more and more imbalanced with the release of more and more ridiculous heroes. Im deadly serious when I say that Jax wouldn't be OP anymore if he was old Jax NOW. the metagame SHIFTS for god sakes. it's not all about "these new heroes" buffs and nerfs change how the game is played. i really don't know where you're going at this point. you can say stuff like that about every game. mf didn't break the game urgot didn't break the game sona isn't breaking the game (yet) these new ridiculous heroes aren't making the game more imbalanced furthermore jax dodging abilities would make this game horrible, rng is always bad for an aspiring competitive game
Shouldn't you then say that dodge and crit should be removed as well?
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Hey shawster, 1v1 mid? Same hero. I want to see this supposed difference of skill level you need to have in order to be a high elo player in LoL. 
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Locket is terrible because you're investing 2400 gold in an item that gives you infinite mana and gives your teammates the regen from Philosopher's Stone. Yeah, no.
Reverie blows because it's 2200 gold for a 2-second team-wide ghost... which you could just hit E for. And speedboosts are generally crappy because they don't give you enough (soft-cap) and because snares>speedboosts.
AP is more important than CDR, and the only CDR item I've been known to routinely get on her is Soul Shroud, mostly stemming from laning with a mana guzzling lanemate (like Sion). You can experiment with other CDR items as you see fit depending on the game but those two recommended items are HORRIBLE.
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On September 30 2010 15:30 ProdT wrote:Hey shawster, 1v1 mid? Same hero. I want to see this supposed difference of skill level you need to have in order to be a high elo player in LoL.
IIRC Shaws is a 15XX player which hardly qualifies as a "high elo player". My 16/17XX pride's been bludgeoned via ranked5 to the point where I'm not sure I qualify as that either (I have seen the light, redtooth!), and I'm very much aware that my 1v1 play isn't up to par anyways (I just abuse my hero).
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Oh, well someone called me out on not being a high elo player, and I want to see this supposed skill that im lacking to give bad opinions
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Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night).
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Has nothing to do with skill, nor elo, because a lot of people in the 16/17/18/19XX range blow. You're overrating your own understanding of the game, and I very much encourage you to respond to my wall of texts.
There are definitely things you can't see until you've run into the wall of actually fucking good players (it took a few days for the loss to L0cust's team to set in and dawn on me what was going on), and the fact that you think certain heroes are supermen makes me just rofl. There was a fucking Nunu jungler that helped EPIK beat CLG for god's sakes, and the only buff he got was a CDR on Consume. loooooooool? And I remember back in the day people thought Soraka was garbage and then like AON rampages with a Soraka/Malphite team. Gimme a break.
There're certain heroes that blow, mostly because they feast on stupid people. Eve, Tryndamere, Jax, for a while Katarina, and stuff like Nunu. There're heroes that're overshadowed by others. But almost every hero in this game is viable and playable, and there's almost always at least one player that takes a hero that's supposedly unviable and plays it well. Now I'm just repeating what redtooth said.
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On September 30 2010 15:34 red_ wrote:
Your initial assertion also makes it sound like DotA/HoN have/had perfect champ balance with no outliers ever in their history. You're basically ignoring the times when people ran shit like Magnataur/Enigma/anything else... for the same reason people run Amumu/Galio. You act like having unique OP skills(Pugna ward, morphling's entire skillset after his first rework, pre-nerf NA mana burn) wasn't around in those games either. Your whole argument is flawed, the entire genre is built around every champ bringing 'ridiculous' things to the game to be worth playing, and sometimes those ridiculous things are too ridiculous(in a good or bad way: see Nightstalker being completely negligible vs competent players, or absolutely murdering people who don't ward properly and play too aggressive at night).
No thats not what im saying at all, What im saying is that the aforementioned is WORSE in LoL. The carry effect, the AP in LoL, the fact that you can't deny or don't lost gold, how really easy it is to spam abilities and have better abilities in general, all contribute to LoL being a more imbalanced game, I'm not saying HoN is 100% balanced, I think flint is OP, but I think Kog is way more OP in his game.
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i think whoever said that jax just needs to be able to dodge (parrley, siphon, pick a card, etc) would make him a lot better. probably not upper tier or anything, but it would definitely help.
lowering the mana costs of his skills slightly would be nice too. he might see some more jungle usage then imo but whatdoinknow
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Yeah everyone is viable, but it depends on whether or not your opponents do dumb things, is this what I'm hearing? So basically....Those heroes aren't viable in competitive games, we are back to square one. Now at the peak of high play you have players who are so skilled or place that one golden ult that affects the entire game that heroes are as dominant as they usually are, but they still play a huge role. I think Vlad had alot to do with why they won but that's my opinion.
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Kog the hero is not any more significantly OP than previous ranged DPS heroes that were too strong in tandem with Lizard buff. You could certainly argue that Ezreal in his prime was stronger and few people would be able to complain. Kog being babysat by Janna+Alistar is nasty because you can't get to him, and as such his broken BR stack (and aspd proc with his skill) is being looked at. But before you bitch, remember that a couple months ago Kog was a mostly garbage hero upon release. They listened to the players that wanted a Kog buff/rework. They got it. Riot fucked up and underestimated the effects of the range etc. Life goes on.
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On September 30 2010 15:30 ProdT wrote:Hey shawster, 1v1 mid? Same hero. I want to see this supposed difference of skill level you need to have in order to be a high elo player in LoL.
i never said i was high elo i just don't think you should come to the thread and think your opinion is the best when there are clear high elo players here (redtooth etc)
if u wanna add me add but if you want to keep on dramaing then pm me and keep it outa this thread
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I'm a mid ELO noobie who would be happy to 1v1 mirror you with Morde (best mirror matchup ever I am not kidding) but really most mirrors are boring.
RUGFEEDER'S 10 SECOND GUIDE TO MIRRORS
Morde v Morde: Awesome positioning battle
Zilean v Zilean: unless they fixed the bomb-removal bug, a really funny and creative matchup that relies on double-bombing weak creeps or even slapping a bomb on your head and warping next to the other zil
Skillshot heroes: who's better at skillshots?
Everything else: BORING.
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also prodT is correct, LoL isn't a more balanced game than HoN or even DotA, but the thing that HoN lacks is that it's not fun. at all. game is ugly and terrible to play
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I don't get why AP is so good compared to CDR though. 2250 doesn't get you much more dmg or healing via AP, and most AP leaves her being a little too squishy. The items are relatively cheap for the CDR, or i guess you could just build a glacial and leave it at that while you get some hp.
2250 gold for 430hp, 10% CDR, infinite mana, and some regen to your team doesn't seem like all that bad a deal. it's still a pretty beefy amount of hp
What items do you suggest?
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This will be my last post regarding the whole discussion, its going nowhere. I am not being dramatic at all, I'm just someone who looks at the facts, so when someone says im not qualified to have an opinion or "shit talk on high elo players" *even though I didnt call out a single person to make it personal, just mentioned heroes and defended my opinion.* I want to know how my opinion can be validated, but when I try to do that and then lead to another dead end well, its time to give up. Im not saying im 100% right, I want to hear your counterarguments, I want to know why LoL is the better game or find out something in a debate that I havent thought of before that I could use to make Jax viable again, but its going nowhere.
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Super aggressive Pantheon + Sona = GG.
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On September 30 2010 15:39 ProdT wrote:
Yeah everyone is viable, but it depends on whether or not your opponents do dumb things, is this what I'm hearing? So basically....Those heroes are viable in competitive games, we are back to square one. Now at the peak of high play you have players who are so skilled or place that one golden ult that affects the entire game that heroes are as dominant as they usually are, but they still play a huge role. I think Vlad had alot to do with why they won but that's my opinion.
No, I'm saying a handful of heroes are reliant on dumb opponents (ie. noobstomp), like Kat and Nunu (bad players don't interrupt) and Jax/Trynd (requires people hitting them) and to an extent Eve, although Eve can leave her mark on some pretty decent-level games too if people aren't being careful. Those heroes will struggle to ever be "prominent" because the nature of their skills screw over dumb players so much that making them viable against good players would call for some complete reworking of their mechanics to not obliterate newbies. When Katarina was becoming less and less able to hold her weight in high-elo player (like 8 months ago) Riot consistently nerfed her, because she was pentakilling low-elo too much. Does that cater to the casual fans? Yes. Does that really affect high-elo players? Debateable, it just means she might as well not exist, but with so many hero choices it's not really a big deal except to people who wanted to play her. Tough luck. Eventually they came up with some solutions that revitalized Kat in high-elo without really changing her in low elo. Great, wonderful, but that's easier said than done, and for the most part no one really cares (again, except for the people who play her). The only things people up top REALLY care about are the heroes that merit insta-bans, but Riot has been pretty damn good with bludgeoning those back to earth (even if it may take them a while). Rikimaru (AFAIK) blows in competitive DotA, yet i don't see you bringing up Rikimaru as an example of DotA being a terrible, terrible game and catering to casual fans.
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On September 30 2010 15:43 ProdT wrote:
This will be my last post regarding the whole discussion, its going nowhere. I am not being dramatic at all, I'm just someone who looks at the facts, so when someone says im not qualified to have an opinion or "shit talk on high elo players" *even though I didnt call out a single person to make it personal, just mentioned heroes and defended my opinion.* I want to know how my opinion can be validated, but when I try to do that and then lead to another end well, its time to give up. Im not saying im 100% right, I want to hear your counterarguments, I want to know why LoL is the better game or find out something in a debate that I havent thought of before that I could use to make Jax viable again, but its going nowhere.
wouldn't say starting a hon vs lol discussion is the best way to lead into a how to make jax viable discussion
it's kinda same as going into a bw thread with c-b level players, i wouldn't dare go in and ask them on an overly debated topic like is tvp imbalanced then voice my opinions
i can see your point and you're being pretty mannered though
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On September 30 2010 15:43 ProdT wrote:
This will be my last post regarding the whole discussion, its going nowhere. I am not being dramatic at all, I'm just someone who looks at the facts, so when someone says im not qualified to have an opinion or "shit talk on high elo players" *even though I didnt call out a single person to make it personal, just mentioned heroes and defended my opinion.* I want to know how my opinion can be validated, but when I try to do that and then lead to another end well, its time to give up. Im not saying im 100% right, I want to hear your counterarguments, I want to know why LoL is the better game or find out something in a debate that I havent thought of before that I could use to make Jax viable again, but its going nowhere.
I have made two long-ass posts explaining why Jax sucks and will continue to suck. I even mentioned Xin Zhao. You ignored them.
Not.
My.
Problem.
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EPT
