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ProdT
United States170 Posts
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 30 2010 14:25 ProdT wrote: In response to redtooth ya that's why katarina and nunu are so imba. what about 1 month ago when teams were only good if they had 5 unkillable heroes? what about before that around 3 months ago when AoE teams were totally "unviable" and everything revolved around janna/heimer? what about before that with global ultimate teams? also there isn't a single "top player" who mains kogmaw. i main katarina (considered unviable) in top games and have pretty sick stats with her. i'd much rather ban locodco's tristana than a random kogmaw. actually, what the hell are you talking about? As time goes on, things get nerfed. Noone plays heimer anymore and everyone knows why, so thats a pretty stupid thing to say. If he wasn't nerfed would you really say he wouldn't be in alot of competitive games nowadays? I really would have expected a better argument from someone like you who plays this game alot. I simply said that there was alot of game changing aoe in LoL thats not as dominant in HoN, I did not say that everyone needs some kind of aoe to be viable, all they need is something borderline OP to be considered viable, like Garens early game lane control, or they could simply have a ton of utility like nidalee. Can you imagine a hero like nidalee in HoN? She would be in every competitive game just for the fact she can heal , do dmg, place wards, has great movement. I'm not going to go to deep into that because then we would need to compare mechanics and thats a losing argument for LoL, because LoL caters to casuals. People will play whatever is abusable in high level competitive games. Not that its wrong or anything, in fact thats what they should do, abuse the game to win. The only reason the community in LoL is bigger is because it is free and more casual friendly, the more people playing the more people who will go on to take the game seriously, but at its core its a casual MOBA. People would even take guitar hero as a competitive game if you get enough people to follow it. [/QUOTE] wait kat was never nerfed into the ground, nunu was never nerfed into the ground. ofc nidalee willl be overpowered, different games. get your ass out of this thread, what amazes me the most is that you are ignorant enough to bring the hon vs lol debate inside a biased thread. | ||
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
As soon as riot begins balancing for 5v5 arranged teams and says "hey guys solo queue is for teh lulz just have fun" you would see a large difference in how champions are balanced. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 30 2010 14:32 ProdT wrote: The old heroes don't need to be touched to not be considered viable anymore, Riot just has to keep releasing more of these heroes to keep shifting the balance, have you seen Jax lately? Lets just say most people would rather have a good miss fortune to AOE the team instead of a Kat. miss fortune aoe isn't as good as kat | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Many old heroes are still fine. New heroes aren't necessarily imba. This is not terribly complex but it seems a frighteningly popular assumption. For evidence: Nunu has never been anything but mediocre. Taric has been pretty consistently top tier. Soraka was a bottom tier champ for a while who suddenly became practically necessary with a metagame shift. Malzahar sucked for a long time after release. Poppy was OP after release because of a bug. Udyr was really broken when he was released but it took a while for people to figure out how to play him. That pretty much covers all possibilities. Now let's stop making generalizations about game balance and RIOT's ulterior motives. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
MF's ult is nice but tends to be ineffective against most people - it's a great starter but it also requires a certain type of team comp, and her actual DPS is relatively bad. Our team is thinking seriously about swapping her out because she's just not cutting it when it comes to what we expect from that slot. By the way good people still player Heimer - two high-ranked players (Dan Dinh and Asier) still main him. Suck less. Nunu has never been nerfed, they were incrementally buffing him for a while, and then buffed him again to make his jungling better; now he's relatively usable. Garen's not strong because of his "early-game lane control" he's strong because of that active passive that gives a ridiculous like 40% less damage taken, which is like a mini version of Alistar's ult, only on better CD and a better passive effect (Alistar's one gives him attack damage...) Nidalee is also fairly weak unless in the hands of a very good player, so I'm not even sure where you're going there. Different teams ban different heroes these days, except for specific game-breakers like Amumu. Our team with the massive stun chains considers Kog'Maw extremely underwhelming despite his damage output, for instance, and Kass can mess with Garen so we're far more concerned about Morgana, for example, who chews up our melee-heavy compo. Edit: I'll probably also add that if you're going to talk shit about "high elo play" you need your name listed. I'm tired of discussing things with clueless pure stream-watchers ala Shikyo. | ||
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
Edit: In response to Southlight's post. You don't need to be a top player to understand alot about the game, otherwise SC2 commentators would need to be top players. If you can read and understand and have plenty of experience with the game and test your assumptions, you can draw some basic conclusions. Such as Jax really isn't that viable anymore, I think alot of people who are top players can make that assumption. Yeah and nice comment about the whole two players who main heimer and therefore proving him viable, its not like those two players are so good they could make Jax LOOK viable or anything.. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 30 2010 15:04 Southlight wrote: Edit: I'll probably also add that if you're going to talk shit about "high elo play" you need your name listed. I'm tired of discussing things with clueless pure stream-watchers ala Shikyo. OH SHIT SON ^ at this point you're just answering to part of the statement now he's saying that you have baseless assumptions and gives examples, yet you go back and say that just because you're not high up in the rankings doesn't mean you don't have an opinion. anything wrong with that? what he's saying is that some heroes is viable in the hands of a good player, you're saying the balance is always slightly overpowered and heroes are quite ridiculous and criticized riot balancing. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
The fine line has nothing to do with his dodge percent. It has to do with his passive - building pure DPS and gaining survivability is really frightening. Also they had to tone down his AP ratios a while ago because he had a 1:1 small AoE nuke on a 3 sec CD or something silly. Jax also suffered a lot against the tanky metagame because he thrives on sitting on ranged DPS. Xin Zhao can't carry as hard as Jax but has more reliable CC, a better early game, and maybe some more advantages. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Incidentally when he was rampaging it was just before the tank fotm which was, IIRC relatively balanced. Mass disables + a ranged carry. You used to see shit like Alistar and Malphite every game, as well Soraka Janna etc. So the other thing Jax really benefited from was the support/CC fotm. That died out because they nerfed healing/support (common lane was Jax Janna, but they nerfed Janna a lot) and because mobility teams (Nidalee/Shen/Shaco) ate that team up alive. Also remember that this was before bans, so people would simply stimy the one-man push by lining up something defensive like Zilean, and these teams weren't confident diving towers on the back of a Jax because towers switched targets. Edit: Right, they nerfed his AP ratios too, which lowered his damage output and made him unable to 1+support v 5 as well. The unfortunate barrage of a billion nerfs and fotm shifts doomed him, and Riot hasn't bothered to go back to re-adjust him, partly because they're probably afraid of making him too 1v5 again. Not too coincidentally not too long after the Jax crunch Shaco revived like a Phoenix. Buffs? Nothing. People just moved onto him and started building him properly and playing him properly. There were like two weeks where Smash and I were enraged whenever someone picked a Shaco on our team because that hero was GARBAGE. But then the next week everyone (us included) started clamoring for a nerf. Wat? Edit2: I'm not gonna say you need to be a top player to understand stuff but when you're flat-out wrong because you've evidently only played with shitty players without understanding why they're making terrible decisions that make them shitty players) and don't understand why you're wrong, instead clinging to this martyr-like belief that you're right and everyone is wrong because you know best, then your credibility shoots down the chute, and out the other side of the planet. | ||
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 30 2010 15:16 ProdT wrote: Yeah, I think if they let Jax dodge abilities again he would fit right in with the current lineup of heroes being released, don't you? The point is the game is getting more and more imbalanced with the release of more and more ridiculous heroes. Im deadly serious when I say that Jax wouldn't be OP anymore if he was old Jax NOW. the metagame SHIFTS for god sakes. it's not all about "these new heroes" buffs and nerfs change how the game is played. i really don't know where you're going at this point. you can say stuff like that about every game. mf didn't break the game urgot didn't break the game sona isn't breaking the game (yet) these new ridiculous heroes aren't making the game more imbalanced furthermore jax dodging abilities would make this game horrible, rng is always bad for an aspiring competitive game also people still don't know how to play their heroes to the max potential. 2 months after garen was released (60 days) he was still going ad, it wasn't until someone stacked sunfires and abused how much damage he did until we realized how op he was. shaco was even stronger back before, he got nerfed. now if people learned how to jungle with shaco back then it would've been instant gg every game. heimer wasn't super op for a month or so until people realized how to turret turtle push same as pantheon, people realized if you put him with a janaa/soraka something gay like that or solo mid then he's just unstoppable due to his abusive snowball nature. he was NEVER op before this, it took like 3-4 months and some minor buffs ( and a glitch which was fixed, but imo the glitch didn't help that much) | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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ProdT
United States170 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On September 30 2010 15:16 ProdT wrote: Yeah, I think if they let Jax dodge abilities again he would fit right in with the current lineup of heroes being released, don't you? The point is the game is getting more and more imbalanced with the release of more and more ridiculous heroes. Im deadly serious when I say that Jax wouldn't be OP anymore if he was old Jax NOW. He wouldn't, for the same reason why he's not picked these days in general. He lacks the tanking power to be a tank, he (by nature) makes people hit not-him (like Trynd), his AP ratios have been gimped such that he can't really punish people that well anymore, he takes several seconds to "kick in" during fights which requires teammates to support him heavily, and he requires the same first item as Kayle, who simply comes in a stronger package. Kayle, ironically, who sucked ass for like a whole year before they completely re-worked her into this terrifying monster, and now she's still strong but for some reason not a whole lot of people play her. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 30 2010 15:21 ProdT wrote: Under what metagame is Jax going to be good? The one where everyone is a less farmed melee DPS? I don't think that happens alot. Tell me how the metagame has to shift for Jax to be good in this game again. Without changing anything about his current self. read southlights last post | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: Also unless you're Hotshot, most people play him as a tank. Why does this kind of work on Xin? Because that triple strike gives him a disable and has good innate damage. Couple this with great synergy with runes (free recurve via an ASPD page) to give him heavy CDR and you get a hero that can be built (via runes) to have decent innate damaging/disable ability, like Udyr. That means you can build him as a tank from the start, and the combination of those two things and his jump/snare means he can take on squishy ranged DPS from the start of a game, where they need more farm than him because of his initial good skillset. He's still one of the most underwhelming tank/melee DPS in the game though. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On September 30 2010 15:21 ProdT wrote: Under what metagame is Jax going to be good? The one where everyone is a less farmed melee DPS? I don't think that happens alot. Tell me how the metagame has to shift for Jax to be good in this game again. Without changing anything about his current self. You're arguing Jax isn't viable. We're agreeing with you. MUNDO IS RETARDED WHEN HE PLEASES | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
I keep hearing that locket is bad, but as far as i can tell, Sona needs 3 things, CDR, mana(regen), and enough hp to not get bursted by blinky ganky shit. so i build a locket and then either kindlegem/codex and spend all the extra gold on wards. only other item i can see being as good is frozen heart, but that doesn't give her nearly as much staying power, and leaves you vulnerable to nukers. Shurelya's also has that staying power issue. 50mp5 while spamming auras is hard to pass up. Tear gives you the mana you need, but doesn't give you hp or CDR AP is a luxury usually because CDR is more important, and sona farms like shit, so you can only really build one expensive item before the game is decided. | ||
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