EPTFrozen Synapse - Page 4
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Eben
United States769 Posts
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
 "SO MANY LEVELINGS!!" | ||
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3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
In FS there is no random factor, no dice rolling. Cover, Stillness and Aiming are what matters. Someone in cover will beat someone in the open, there is no possibility of a "flukey headshot". As for the "luck" that you guess correctly what your opponent will do... I don't think that's luck. I think that's the skill of anticipation. This game is ALL about anticipating what your enemy is doing. It's an amazing feeling when your opponent does exactly what you anticipated in your simulations, and your plans work out. Someone earlier said about a single unit aiming still in a room. The trick here is to try and distract it with one unit, and attack with another. It can be difficult to pull off, but if you can't flank or use explosives it's often the only option. Game is thoroughly worth the £7. It doesn't stop me waiting for LSN 2 though | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:11 3Form wrote: That doesn't make any sense, you cannot anticipate the unknown. What if there are no one move that is best against anything the enemy could possibly do? Then you have to guess what he'll do to choose what's best against it. There's luck because you have to take a guess.As for the "luck" that you guess correctly what your opponent will do... I don't think that's luck. I think that's the skill of anticipation. This game is ALL about anticipating what your enemy is doing. Rock, paper, scissors has zero dice rolls in it. Just a human vs another human. You can perfectly simulate and anticipate all your enemy's possible moves and pick the ideal strategy against it. Do you think there is no luck in that game? | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:22 VIB wrote: That doesn't make any sense, you cannot anticipate the unknown. What if there are no one move that is best against anything the enemy could possibly do? Then you have to guess what he'll do to choose what's best against it. There's luck because you have to take a guess. Rock, paper, scissors has zero dice rolls in it. Just a human vs another human. You can perfectly simulate and anticipate all your enemy's possible moves and pick the ideal strategy against it. Do you think there is no luck in that game? I'm 124-12 and yes... there is luck, but it's not by luck that I win most of my games it's because i play a safe style that doesn't put me in a situation where I will always kill as many guys as i lose +1. And yes, you can anticipate the unknown if you know the rules of the game. You can anticipate in rock paper scissors your opponent will chose either rock paper or scissors. That's the rules of the game so you're safe to assume that. In frozen synapse each unit can move a set amount of spaces. Ducking slows you by 50%. shotguns range versus rifle range... these things are constant and you can use them to make judgements that allow you to setup in the best situation. To be quite honest there is very little luck in this game, but because people don't play out enough scenarios in their head it may seem like that. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:22 VIB wrote: That doesn't make any sense, you cannot anticipate the unknown. What if there are no one move that is best against anything the enemy could possibly do? Then you have to guess what he'll do to choose what's best against it. There's luck because you have to take a guess. Anticipate: Regard as probable; expect or predict The whole point of anticipation is that it is unknown. It wouldn't be a prediction if it was known. However, I do admit there is some luck involved, as in any game with incomplete information. I would just like to suggest that it is quite a small component because the range of possible moves is very large and you can usually find a general 'counter'. Rock, paper, scissors has zero dice rolls in it. Just a human vs another human. You can perfectly simulate and anticipate all your enemy's possible moves and pick the ideal strategy against it. Do you think there is no luck in that game? There is. But it evens out over games and top players consistently win at RPS. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:22 VIB wrote: That doesn't make any sense, you cannot anticipate the unknown. What if there are no one move that is best against anything the enemy could possibly do? Then you have to guess what he'll do to choose what's best against it. There's luck because you have to take a guess. Rock, paper, scissors has zero dice rolls in it. Just a human vs another human. You can perfectly simulate and anticipate all your enemy's possible moves and pick the ideal strategy against it. Do you think there is no luck in that game? did you watch TB's video? It shows exactly how you can simulate enemy movements and outcomes. It's like chess: you don't know what your opponent will do, but you can plan/anticipate different moves. Yes, you might get "lucky" or "unlucky" by missing something - but that's not "random luck". | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
I've experienced a weird thing a couple of times where in my simulations my guy would be able to escape a grenade or rocket blast but when the outcome ran he died. I cancel aim and ignore enemies, I'm not sure what could be happening differently in the real run to cause this. Any ideas? I'm wondering if the full range of the explosion doesn't get simulated because it ends too quickly or something... | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
Here are two more videos. First one is a comeback from someone who is supposed to be high on the daily ladder with a pretty nice score. (Kasami) The second one is a game me and my friend just played. | ||
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Whalecore
Norway1111 Posts
On June 01 2011 03:29 mucker wrote: A friend gave me his code on sunday, really enjoying it, only doing single player so far. Wish these guys had the rights to X-Com instead of that stupid company that is making it an fps. I've experienced a weird thing a couple of times where in my simulations my guy would be able to escape a grenade or rocket blast but when the outcome ran he died. I cancel aim and ignore enemies, I'm not sure what could be happening differently in the real run to cause this. Any ideas? I'm wondering if the full range of the explosion doesn't get simulated because it ends too quickly or something... Exact same thing happened to me. Was my 2nd match ever vs my friend, and I basically suicided my own unit and GG ^^ | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
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3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:22 VIB wrote: That doesn't make any sense, you cannot anticipate the unknown. What if there are no one move that is best against anything the enemy could possibly do? Then you have to guess what he'll do to choose what's best against it. There's luck because you have to take a guess. Rock, paper, scissors has zero dice rolls in it. Just a human vs another human. You can perfectly simulate and anticipate all your enemy's possible moves and pick the ideal strategy against it. Do you think there is no luck in that game? Rubbish, you cannot pick the ideal strategy in RPS. There is no ideal strategy. You can anticipate their moves, but it is a game of absolutes. There are no compromises. You are correct, it is purely random (unless your opponent has a tendency to favour one choice, in which case you can weight each choice when formulating your "strategy") That's like saying that winning in Brood War is all luck, whether you pick the right build or not. That's nonsense. You scout your opponent, and you make assumptions about what they will do when you cannot scout them, based on your prior knowledge. That is rubbish too, RPS and SC are not analogous. In Frozen Synapse you can see the starting position of enemy units. You can deduce all their possible moves. You can then formulate a response that is best suited to the situation. Saying that it is all down to luck and "probability" is correct only if the enemy makes their decision by randomly selecting their moves, and that you randomly select your moves. You don't decide your moves by rolling a dice, in just the same way that you don't pick your SC build out of a hat. You use reason and logic to select your SC build. You do not randomly select it. In RPS you do randomly select your moves. You have no prior information. There is no scenario or premise. The most skilled player will anticipate the most outcomes and thus be more likely to win. I don't see where the luck comes in. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 01 2011 01:34 starcraft911 wrote: You're just saying there's both luck + skill. I agree. I was only saying that this is the kind of game that I would grow bored of quick because there seems to big of a ratio of luck vs skill.I'm 124-12 and yes... there is luck, but it's not by luck that I win most of my games it's because i play a safe style that doesn't put me in a situation where I will always kill as many guys as i lose +1. If you're winning 10x more than losing, like you are, it just means you're fighting much worse players than you. Then luck will mean little. Suppose the game is 90% skill and 10% luck. So if you're only playing players in that 90% range you'll win by skill. And you'll come here thinking "there's very little luck in this game". But when you start playing guys inside that 10% range (who have similar skill to you). Then either two things will happen: - Most games will be resolved by luck: it will be like playing rock,paper,scissors over and over - Both skilled players agree the optimum perfect play results in a draw. All games will draw. Either way, it's not fun. Which is why I'm afraid this is the kind of game where I would have a lot of fun on the first month or so where I'm just running over worse players using better strategy. But then I get to play similar skilled players and now it's only the one who gets lucky who wins. Not the one with better strategy. So I would go bored. Anyway. It all comes down to how long it takes to get to the "skill cap" or whatever you call it. Since all of you guys are playing it and saying it's awesome and luck is very tiny. Then I guess there's actually a lot of room for fun and strategy before it gets boring. So I will eventually buy this game. You guys convinced me | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 01 2011 04:27 3Form wrote: I never said it's all down to luck. I'm saying there's both luck and skill. I only replied to people who were saying "there is zero luck at all". Which is mathematically impossible. There has to be *some* luck on a game of imperfect information. The only problem is how big of a role luck plays.Saying that it is all down to luck and "probability" | ||
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3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
In some game modes, spawn points are random and in others the units you get are different for each player. So in this case, luck comes into it. Same goes for unfair maps, these are things outside your control. I think player skill can overcome these difficulties, unless of course in a hypothetical situation you have two equally *skilled* players when I suppose luck does come into it. Otherwise, if you encounter a situation to which there is no solution, then it's because of a previous error of judgment, not because of luck. Okay, I'm glad you will buy the game, please feel free to get the last word in | ||
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Urnhardt
United States110 Posts
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On June 01 2011 05:04 Urnhardt wrote: i've seen quite a few draws on some videos i've watched. is there a turn/time limit or something? seems sorta lame that in the video a few posts above becomes one on one and then it ends a draw. The game usually ends after the 8th turn has finished. If both players have the same number of units in the end of a termination game then the game is a draw, otherwise the player with more units left wins. I'm not sure how drawing works in other game modes. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 31 2011 22:16 DrainX wrote: I just realised one of the Steam Achievements in the game alludes to a quote by Artosis "SO MANY LEVELINGS!!" Mode7 guys are SC2 fans. The mode7 twitter routinely comments on SC2, mostly the GSL. The winner of a particular match is often luck, but your rating is not luck based. If I remember correctly each map you get is played by numerous people and how the results of the map affect your rating are determined by how the population at large does on the map. You can read about it here: http://www.mode7games.com/blog/2010/04/27/feature-announcement-duplicate/ Given that FS is not likely to be hyper competitive I think this is a good idea as it makes the experience overall more enjoyable and varied. For an actual competition you can use planned custom maps that are symmetrical with equal units anyways. | ||
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zocktol
Germany1928 Posts
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
I'm about 10 hours into the single player campain, and have played a handful of multiplayer games. Great game! | ||
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