On March 11 2010 23:56 x2fst wrote: ok i'll bite on your ridiculous trolling, way to hype up kobe's outlier year while disregarding carmelo's performance due to sample size, even though kobe has a far larger sample size suggesting that he isn't close to being #1 anyway
lebron is the best clutch player anyway and it's not close at all, and kobe is not #2
lol obvious troll. In fact you are so right that if you ask players and coaches in the NBA who they'd be scared of in crunch time they'd pick Lebron over Kobe, Melo, Duncan, Dirk and Wade without hesitation right? get lost.
great comeback victory by the blazers against the warriors. it looked like another blowout (as in their previous encounter in oakland) but the blazers hung in there and played excellent D in the final quarter. it's also interesting to note the blazers hadn't won in oakland since 2004 so it's good to see them end their 5-6 yr drought.
and another thing, is it just me or does roy always bitch about not getting a call when he drives to the basket? he's ALWAYS looking at the ref for a bailout call. and his drives are often accompanied by ridiculous yelling to try and get the ref's attention. i'm a roy fan but he should drop that habit cause it's damn annoying.
I know you saw when he nearly dunked on errr...ok forgot the guy's name. The play when Roy held the ball high, drove left and nearly POSTERED that kid~! If he didn't miss the dunk I think everyone would have just left the game because of how brutal that would have been.
On March 12 2010 16:47 unknown.sam wrote: and another thing, is it just me or does roy always bitch about not getting a call when he drives to the basket? he's ALWAYS looking at the ref for a bailout call. and his drives are often accompanied by ridiculous yelling to try and get the ref's attention. i'm a roy fan but he should drop that habit cause it's damn annoying.
As opposed to ...? How many superstar players don't look for a call when they drive to the basket?
You're complaining about a practice which is generally agreed by consensus to lead to more points. So why wouldn't they want more points? Don't blame the players for trying to get the most out of the system.
On March 12 2010 16:47 unknown.sam wrote: and another thing, is it just me or does roy always bitch about not getting a call when he drives to the basket? he's ALWAYS looking at the ref for a bailout call. and his drives are often accompanied by ridiculous yelling to try and get the ref's attention. i'm a roy fan but he should drop that habit cause it's damn annoying.
As opposed to ...? How many superstar players don't look for a call when they drive to the basket?
You're complaining about a practice which is generally agreed by consensus to lead to more points. So why wouldn't they want more points? Don't blame the players for trying to get the most out of the system.
my complaint is relative to how he USED to play. and i've watched a ton of portland games, he never used to whine as much as he does now.
Tired of yet another kobe fanboy post? Here's an interesting article about some of the other 399 or so players ... including why Darko Milic is underrated! And checking his stats, he's actually playing decently
And Darko Milicic -- he's way more talented than anyone ever gave him credit for. He has been beat up in his first six years in the NBA. I wish I could sneak you into the gym so you could see what he can do. He really is seven-feet-plus. He's really bouncy. He's really running. You can see why it was a debate who should be first, second or third in that draft.
On March 12 2010 17:30 Ace wrote: I know you saw when he nearly dunked on errr...ok forgot the guy's name. The play when Roy held the ball high, drove left and nearly POSTERED that kid~! If he didn't miss the dunk I think everyone would have just left the game because of how brutal that would have been.
yeah that would've been pretty nasty. too bad he couldn't put it down.
i would think mcmillan would be a candidate for COY considering all the injuries they've had this season. you could also make the argument for scott brooks and the job he has done over at OKC. i mean who even thought durantula and co. would be in playoff contention this year? from what i saw last season i was only expecting maybe a 10-15 game turnaround at most. but one thing's for sure, they have a very bright future.
Alright I posted like an asshole so I’ll explain why I have the opinion that I do, I'll even f7 to make it readable. I’ll start with this: game winners =/= clutch, Kobe’s ability to create a slightly below average shot at any time is probably top 3 in the league and is the most viable option with under 3 seconds to go, many of Kobe’s shots this year have been insanely difficult (the Miami 3, the most recent baseline fade away, the one over Allen vs. the Celtics, the one vs. the bucks), simply seeing the kinds of shots Kobe creates for himself in crunch time supports the stats showing that he hits clutch baskets at a mediocre frequency. The problem is that Kobe takes those bad shots when he doesn't have to, and does it at too high a rate. Great shotmaker sure, but it doesn't help his team as much as people think.
Now that's not to say if Nash took 12 game winners in a season he'd hit at a better rate (he might but it doesn't matter), he's a superior passer and is less predictable, as such his team performs better in crunch time than the Lakers as a result of him being on the floor. Lebron is the similar except he has the best move in basketball (bulldog to rim) as well as being a willing passer surrounded by great shooters and cutters, not that Lebron doesn't take retarded shots all the time, he does, but he's so good he's still the best despite those terrible shots.
Kobe’s style lends itself to last second heroics while not being as effective as other elite players over the course of a game and in 4th quarters. This is partly due to fisher and Artest being average shooters and partly due to his predictability in crunch time. Kobe taking a game winner when everyone in the building expects him to shoot is not a good thing, no one is forcing him to take way more shots than is optimal for one player to take, i.e. the Lakers would be better if Kobe made better decisions. Guys like Nash, Roy, Paul, and Billups help their teams more.
Here's an article demonstrating why having one player take such a large % of shots hurts the team's efficiency even if they are the best option in a vacuum (which is debatable with the Lakers anyway, both Bynum and Gasol are more efficient offensive players than Kobe).
Here are 82games.com's clutch stats for the 2010 season, Lebron's pts+assists are clearly #1 as well as ridiculous defensive numbers. Kobe is #2 in pts but shoots 43% and only averages 4 assists per 48m of crunch time, Roy/Nash/Nowitzki/Paul all contribute more offensively to their team than Kobe in crunch time. Looking at last season’s stats paints a similar picture, Kobe’s scoring is among the leaders but he does it with mediocre efficiency.
Do you realize that every player you compared Kobe to (besides LeBron) is a point guard (although BRoy is becoming more of a 2 as of late but that's besides the point)? Comparing Kobe to a point guard and wondering why they get more assists than he does is like wondering why apples don't have the same citrus flavor that lemons do. I don't see how you can say that a team like Phoenix performs better than the Lakers in crunch time. The Lakers are 4-1 in OT games this season, almost solely because of Kobe. What's Phoenix's record?
Those numbers you point to are pretty much common knowledge at this point, it's why Henry Abbott of truehoop has always talked shit about Kobe not being the best crunch time scorer... And again, while statistically he may not be the best, there are a ton of different explanatory variables for that (I.E he takes the most shots against the toughest defenders, he takes more shots at those stages of the game than anyone else, etc etc)... the fact that he pretty consistently over the years gets his teams wins, the fact that he is the most feared player in the league in the last 5 seconds, the fact that every single coach and GM in the NBA would pick Kobe to take a last second shot is enough proof.
Using numbers as a crutch is just not viable in a game with so many non-quantitative variables.
Secondly, your definition of clutch is different than most people's I guess.
it's insane that you can just reject even the simplest methods of quantifying crunchtime output. i'll address this in particular
while statistically he may not be the best, there are a ton of different explanatory variables for that (I.E he takes the most shots against the toughest defenders, he takes more shots at those stages of the game than anyone else, etc etc)...
that's the point, taking tougher shots, and more of them, is BAD for his team. he only has to take those tough shots in the very last moments of a game, but he's hurting his team by shooting 43% for the last 5 minutes of close games at a high volume. he has 2 allstar big men and competent shooters at his disposal and yet largely ignores them. if his play were more efficient down the stretch the lakers would win more games more easily
i will concede that kobe is probably the best last second shotmaker in the league and if you want to hang your hat on that then fine. but the usefulness of that skill is inflated massively and a terrible way of assigning the 'most clutch' title
Now that my Spurs and Celtics are done for the season, more of the lighter side: King's coach really getting into a chest bump. They're going to need some hand sanitizer after that!
On March 13 2010 18:29 x2fst wrote: it's insane that you can just reject even the simplest methods of quantifying crunchtime output. i'll address this in particular
while statistically he may not be the best, there are a ton of different explanatory variables for that (I.E he takes the most shots against the toughest defenders, he takes more shots at those stages of the game than anyone else, etc etc)...
that's the point, taking tougher shots, and more of them, is BAD for his team. he only has to take those tough shots in the very last moments of a game, but he's hurting his team by shooting 43% for the last 5 minutes of close games at a high volume. he has 2 allstar big men and competent shooters at his disposal and yet largely ignores them. if his play were more efficient down the stretch the lakers would win more games more easily
i will concede that kobe is probably the best last second shotmaker in the league and if you want to hang your hat on that then fine. but the usefulness of that skill is inflated massively and a terrible way of assigning the 'most clutch' title
as far as i've seen he takes those high volume shots in the fourth when his team is down and underperforming. Honestly it looks like no one other than kobe wants to win a championship; it's like they're happy with winning last year and don't care this year.
he's only got 1 all star and i wouldn't trust anyone on that team to make a last second shot except for kobe and fisher, but of course i would rather kobe. He gave it up to artest with a wide open three and he blew it. So i'd rather kobe take a tough ass shot than anyone open.
that's the point, taking tougher shots, and more of them, is BAD for his team
I think you're missing the point. Nobody is talking about whether what Kobe does is good or bad for the team... we're purely talking about Kobe's ability to hit shots at the last second. Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant to the discussion. You're trying to change the subject of the discussion. Whether what he does is good or bad is an entirely different topic; the point is that he IS the most deadly scorer at the end of a game. Period.
. he only has to take those tough shots in the very last moments of a game, but he's hurting his team by shooting 43% for the last 5 minutes of close games at a high volume. he has 2 allstar big men and competent shooters at his disposal and yet largely ignores them. if his play were more efficient down the stretch the lakers would win more games more easily
I'm assuming you don't watch Laker games very often and are just looking at numbers. I don't know where you get "he has competent shooters" from, nobody on that team can hit shots reliably except Gasol. Further, Bynum rarely plays in crunch time situations, so "he has 2 all star big men" isn't accurate either (and Bynum isn't an all star). How clutch is Gasol, it varies. He's fucked up a lot of big moments where Kobe trusted him. Same with Artest and Odom and Fisher (although Fisher has had some miracle plays over the years). Your analysis is purely quantitative and shows that you either don't understand basketball at a high level, or don't want a lot of Laker games.
i will concede that kobe is probably the best last second shotmaker in the league
This is 100% what the discussion was originally about, you brought in a ton of extraneous information.
EPT
