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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On July 21 2008 23:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:
That's not MBS. That's something else entirely. From what Rage said, MBS is essentially useless in SC2 because you can't make a lot of units at once anyway. It's only faster to set rallies (I think?), and the Zerg system of setting rallies makes it a little easier, sure.
No. MBS is more powerful now because you can ratio your units with great precision. You dont hit 5t and make 50 tanks. you go 5tttttttvvvvvvvvvvvvvv and do a 2:3 tank/bike ratio or something like that. We didn't say MBS was that bad because its been nerfed - we said its bad because it has automine, queing, rallying and too smart AI to back it up. Please read ~_~.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Sorry if I came off myself as too negative! I'm just saying, you guys sound way less enthusiastic than I would have been. Most of your comments are directed at what you don't like about the game rather than what you do. I understand that
Looking back, much of the preceding may seem very critical and only focus on negative aspects of the Starcraft 2 build we played. However, thats why we went to WWI - if you want to hear how amazing and "cool" every new feature is, you should read a main stream gaming news site. Starcraft 2 is a very fun game to play and we have little doubt that the solutions to the addressed issues will have been found by launch.
but at the same time, what was present that will benefit competitive play? What new features do you think could help accelerate or improve the professional scene? You guys treat a lot of the new features as 'bugs' or 'issues' to be fixed.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On July 21 2008 23:37 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2008 23:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:
That's not MBS. That's something else entirely. From what Rage said, MBS is essentially useless in SC2 because you can't make a lot of units at once anyway. It's only faster to set rallies (I think?), and the Zerg system of setting rallies makes it a little easier, sure.
No. MBS is more powerful now because you can ratio your units with great precision. You dont hit 5t and make 50 tanks. you go 5tttttttvvvvvvvvvvvvvv and do a 2:3 tank/bike ratio or something like that. We didn't say MBS was that bad because its been nerfed - we said its bad because it has automine, queing, rallying and too smart AI to back it up. Please read ~_~.
Sorry, I didn't get that from the story. But MBS and 'automine/queueing/rallying/smart AI' are totally different things, aren't they?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yes they are different but because they are all there you can just sit back, alt-tab and fap for a bit then come back and still macro fine.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
MBS isn't bad. Building que isn't bad. Even the smart AI isn't that bad MBS+Building Que+Smart AI+Automine = Bad.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Oh the "good" things about sc2 is that alot of the timings still worked out really nicely. Like when you 12 hatch, you had 150 minerals for your 3 drones exactly as your ovie popped. Thats not really relevant though because its timing/mineral balance.
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So the game feel is like SC and even better but the mechanics are worse. That roughly sums up our (or at least my) opinion.
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Great post guys. It sounds like the game is doing pretty good as of now, but it looks like they have a long way to go. I was also scared of automining more than MBS, but it sounds like the sum of all of the additions make the game easier. I really hope that once the beta hits, Blizzard will be hounded by constant complaints about the upgraded system.
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On July 21 2008 23:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:
What I've always been at a loss at is why these particular interface enhancements are so devastating to the game, so damaging, when the interface enhancements between War2 and SC were not.
Would you say that constant interface enhancements are a vital necessity for competition? Isn't the big goal here to enhance the expirience in general? If we automaticaly assume that anything that is old is outdated (and thus somehow less fun) arent we ignoring a big portion of the general expirience then?
I'm very positive that starcraft 2 is going to be a great game but i think its naive to just expect things to work out themself. Even tough it's blizzard there are still 10 years to beat.
If i see a real reason why it improves the gameplay expirience i'm down with it. In a splitsecond.
But i think one has to be very carefull with discarding old systems altogheter just because we have another solution. And then at the end of the day all these changes add up to something that just erased a large slice of the pie that should have been cherished.
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Thanks for the review guys. But I think most of you exceeded too much in nostalgia which hurt the objectiveness of your review. I'd rather read something with less emotion and more objective analysis. Many paragraphs are simply contradictory with each other and others were simply nostalgia rants (such as deadhaji using a whole paragraph only to say that gathering 6 instead of 8 minerals is just... different). But overall it was a great read.
Just one thing that I would like you guys to clear up is about the "surround AI". Please stop saying that, there is no such thing as "new bad surround AI". The AI that finds pathing uses the exact same logic as in SC1 and any other RTS that ever existed. The only difference from SC1 to SC2 is that the game responds faster. So instead of a zergling trying to find a way around a target every 1 sec it will find a way around every 0.01 sec (ex. numbers). Which is also why units respond instantly to user commands (even why mutalisk micro as we know is extinct, but this can be changed individually). So what you are complaining about is basically the game being faster.
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Who is complaining about the game being faster? I haven't seen any. I don't see anyone complaining about the AI either, not at all. You do realize that we're mostly criticizing the UI or other game features, not the AI?
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Great update tx. 
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Hey, Im really dissapointed that they added new units and stuff to SC2. I mean, how am I going to show what a pro I am if they keep changing the game with each new Starcraft?
EDIT: Nice article though!
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On July 22 2008 01:10 ForAdun wrote:
Who is complaining about the game being faster? I haven't seen any. I don't see anyone complaining about the AI either, not at all. You do realize that we're mostly criticizing the UI or other game features, not the AI? Did you even... read the review? O.o
"Surround AI
In Starcraft 2, the AI of units has been significantly altered. One prime example of this is the surround AI most notably exhibited by speedlings and also workers. A single attack move from the speedling user will surround zealots on the ramp within 2 seconds (that is not an exaggeration). Right click past, then attacking onto the zealot is no longer required. When I first did this to Meat using a 10pool speed build, I was extremely shocked at the results."
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Well that's one example out of how many? I don't see why this should be discussed more than the current UI features. The topic is just so much smaller, it's ok to debate it but it got nothing to do with the UI which everyone is talking about mostly. There is no relation between AI and UI and I'd want that to be clear in topics like these.
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I'm not gonna discuss with you. It's a great review and I'm not gonna let some random pub derail it to non-sense. Believe what you wish I could care less.
For the staff I think it would also be nice if you posted a link to Nyovne's review in the article:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527
It's very objective and in-depth. He's prolly the guy with the most experience with the game so far (outside of blizz). Recommended for anyone who is interesting in reading more about sc2.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yeah Nyovne's was actually going to be part of the FE. The problem was a) length b) it took forever to finish lol c) its not the same style that we wrote at all.
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Can you at least edit and put a link at the bottom "for further reading" or something? I just loved his review and believe it deserves a small spot on the first page news ^^
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Not sure why we needed 5 views to state the same thing - that you don't like automine and MBS.
Some skills will be lost in the transition, new skills will arise. It is time to get used to it.
Back in the early days of motor racing you needed to be physically strong to turn the steering wheel and drive the car. Now in Formula 1 you don't need to be strong to turn the steering wheel (even less effort to change gear - just press a button), but you need to be even fitter to withstand the g-forces and stuff.
I feel like a lot of the complaints are like old drivers complaining about how easy it is to turn the steering wheel now - just completely oblivious to, or selectively failing to recognize, all the new skills that will become more apparent 6 months into the game.
(ok this is a bad analogy, because motor racing is boring as hell, but I hope you get the idea).
"Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
Turn and face the strain
Ch-ch-changes"
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On July 22 2008 02:09 teacake wrote:
Not sure why we needed 5 views to state the same thing - that you don't like automine and MBS.
<font size = "4">Why 5?</font>
It was very clear after our BWWI play test of Starcraft 2 that not one of us could bring an opinion that would include everything we had experienced. Naturally, we were inclined to write an article that would leave the reader to take the best and worst of our combined opinions and correlate his or her own conclusions.
(ok this is a bad analogy, because motor racing is boring as hell, but I hope you get the idea).
No actually thats a good analogy because seeing someone control a massive army with drops, and a variety of spells all going off at once while visually impressive, wouldn't necessarily be as impressive at the highest level of play.
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EPT
