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Gumbo
Canada807 Posts
On September 20 2009 02:47 LuisMl8 wrote: Amazing write-up yo Jaedong? bisu? i think Bisu is better than Jaedong, Jaedong havent invented anything he just play straigh up, and to keep in count he is Zerg user Zerg is 1a2a3a4a EZZ race IMO lolwut. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Is Jaedong is a one note player with perfect mechanics? Jaedong does have truly amazing mechanics. This cannot be stressed enough. It allows him to have timing windows that a few can abuse, over commit to an attack with nothing but his micromanagement to rely on or power up with minimal defenses. In other words, his mechanics paves way to unconventional play quite frequently. Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly. It might be that people tend to remember his trademark “WTF just happened there” victories more than his strategic triumphs. His mutalisk/hydralisk joint attack against Flash on Destination after a crippling vulture raid, his probe snipe against Bisu to sneak zerglings through on what was a sure build order loss on Andromeda, his overlord bait into zergling lurker break against Canata on Outsider and his zergling surround on the bunker after a failed 4 pool against Fantasy are all examples of how Jaedong can pull a victory out of nothing. It’s one of the reasons why Jaedong is above the rest, because a simple lapse of misjudgment by the opponent is enough to allow a killer blow from Jaedong. Jaedong’s games are a bit of everything: a seemingly normal game that ends abruptly due to Jaedong’s killer instincts, standard games that show off Jaedong’s amazing late game mechanics, clever trickeries such early mineral-only expansions and seemingly ridiculous strategies that only Jaedong can pull off. Savior’s strategic forte allowed him to look superior against all opponents because all the moves made by his opponents were within his expectations. Jaedong’s insight isn’t quite there yet. His greatest attribute is his mechanics of course, and that forces him to play a wide variety of styles (even more so than Savior) because the disparity in mechanical skill truly kicks in when his opponent is caught off guard. What he lacks in strategic depth, he makes up for with in game intuition and constant switching of styles to keep his opponents unable to react properly to his troop movement or game plan. Does Jaedong falter when it comes Proleague matches? I have been arguing for the longest time the importance of Proleague matches on TL it seems. The preparation put into Proleague matches, has the weight of an entire team going behind it. It’s where all the money is. I don’t rate players like Kwanro because of his relative position the team in comparison to Effort despite the fact that he is an MSL finalist. People who fail to make any major impact in the Proleague should be judged accordingly just like the Proleague aces who fail miserably in individual leagues. However, we should be extremely careful when we start using the Proleague as an apparatus for a player’s greatness. There are so many factors involved when Proleague matches are involved, that the might of a single player - no matter how awesome – plays a lesser role in comparison with the individual leagues. Boxer himself said in the post-match interview after the Grand Finals of the Proleague that they had practiced the ACE match build against multiple zerg players playing on team melee mode to check the potency of the build against a player of Jaedong’s caliber (he added that the effect of team melee mode is so great that Bisu, the best player on his team, cannot win against multiple players on team melee). When that many minds are working against you in collaboration, there are bound to be moments of weakness no matter how thoroughly prepared you are. After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him. Even Flash barely scraped over the 50% winning rate (5 wins 4 losses) in his ACE matches because every team had been gunning for him in matches against KTF, Jaedong actually had a respectable record of 9 wins and 4 losses in his ACE matches despite the opposing team having prior knowledge of the fact that Jaedong had to split his practice hours for a ACE match against all match-ups as well as his entry game. Bisu never had this kind of pressure. In this day and age, with every coach analyzing the plays of known players, talented players in their own right selectively practicing for the match against Jaedong knowing his defeat will cripple his team and the fatigue that comes with such huge responsibility over such a long period would makes things impossible for ANYONE to pull out a lone man effort to claim the Proleague title, yet Hwaseung Oz almost ACE’d their way to the top with only Jaedong to rely on. If this doesn’t get someone’s respect, I don’t know what else Jaedong can do to win it. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly. No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR. On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him. No one is holding it against him. In fact, it's probably even greater evidence of his resilience. But skill is not a measure of "what he could be". We can't make judgements on Jaedong's ability based on what things would be like if he had a easier practice schedule--because we can't know those things.We base on what is--how he played in the games he's played. Will we make note of his superhuman schedule? Yes. But that won't change losses into wins. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
I heart Jaedong. I think that the technical aspect of Z does translate into him being less "strategical" but I think all of us have to agree that he is very tactical in his play, his timing concerning unit movement, positioning, target selecting is nearly perfect. I haven't seen many games where he does a crazy build order (he is Z, how many creative BO's does Z have compared to T/P?) but his in-game decision making concerning when, what, and how to attack/defend are nearly flawless in all match ups. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
murderous, doomed, that cost the protoss countless ZvP's; hurling out of starleagues so many hyped progamers | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
If it makes practice that much harder, wouldn't it be wise to play games mostly on Team Melee? Would this not improve your skill level even more? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 20 2009 11:48 butchji wrote: You depreciate Flash too early imo. He is two years younger than JaeDong, I believe, and already has the same winning ratio! <3 And Sea has the same winning ratio as Stork although he's 2 years younger! ... | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
Zerg does not have as much room to innovate as the other races. The slight modifications you see Jaedong make are about as creative as you can get with zerg while still playing an optimal game designed to win. It's hard to make a sweeping paradigm changing build when Zerg is so limited in that respect anyway and seemingly the major changes have already happened (muta stacking, 3 hatch, 2 hatch). Unlike Terran and Protoss in many of their matchups, Zerg does not have the luxury of being able to hide their builds long enough to catch the opponents off guard too much, especially if the opponent is good at keeping the probe/scv alive. If the Zerg does go for a surprise/creative attack, it is usually an all-in, unlike with Terran and Protoss to some degree. Zerg cannot proxy with the exception of proxy hatches and that is hardly a viable build in most cases (and yes I am aware of the Medusa strategy but that is a rare instance). As for Zero's queens, he made good use of it against Bisu but it's not like Zergs weren't for a long time trying to figure out something to do with that seemingly useless unit. And Jaedong did employ it effectively against Fantasy on Shin Chupung. While the Queen can be an effective surprise unit, I don't think it's equivalent to something like Fantasy's mech builds which have longer staying power. It's not a surprise that you still rarely see Queens ever used: it's rarely viable once the opponent is aware of its possibility, and you hardly see it anymore (Zero's queen use on Collosseum against Skyhigh was awesome but he still lost the game, that may be why you saw it at a tournament like Blizzcon and not in PL or an OSL). The point is, it seems that your criticism of Jaedong as a player lacking strategically is not really fair, given the nature of Zerg. If you criticize Jaedong for that, then you're really just criticizing Zerg in general. And if you're simply saying his strategical play is the most lacking compared to the rest of his abilities, it's because Jaedong has maximized the aspects of his race that can be enhanced the most (mechanics, aggression, intuition, timing). I'd say he does as much as he can with the race strategically, and as much or more than any other Zerg player with the exception of Zero. Also, your definition of a 'strategical player' seems to be someone who comes up with something completely new which others must adapt to, after which the 'strategical player' must reinvent himself to stay on top. If that is the case, then can you really criticize zerg players in general and Jaedong more specifically for not coming up with these new builds and strategies, given the race's nature as mentioned above? As for how Zerg responds to being attacked by various creative and unorthodox builds, I'd say Jaedong responds as well or better than any Zerg out there to unconventional builds, and he has definitely improved this aspect since he first rose to prominence. When Fantasy first introduced his mech build against GGplay he left him devastated. I'm not saying if Jaedong had been the first to see the build, he would've fared any better. My point is I don't really think Zerg can do too much when a Terran can come up with something completely new and unorthodox except learn from it. It's how the race is designed. Zerg must take calculated risks regarding economy because it is so fragile and the drone/units balance has to be perfect. When unable to scout the opposing player, Zerg must take into account all known builds and choose the optimal build. If a completely new strategy takes advantage of what is the conventionally known zerg optimal build, Zerg is pretty helpless. This is also why I believe Zerg tend to do better in series than individual games, because it gives Zerg time to adapt. I am fully aware that your post was more to emphasize Jaedong's staying power due to his mechanics and will to win/mental toughness, which I agree with, I still find criticizing Zerg in general for not being as strategically creative as the other races unfair. And I'd say Jaedong maximizes his strategical play, too, but it's more difficult to see due to Zerg's strategical subtlety. As I mentioned, Zerg seem to do better in series games than individual games, and if you agree with me that this is a function of zerg's being able to adapt to new strategies, then would not Jaedong be a shining example of that given his history of comeback wins? You can just as easily interpret his comebacks as demonstrating his ability to adapt during a series (Batoo OSL final) rather than a result of his "will to win", which I'd say is a little more subjective and less convincing in this light. I do agree very much with your comparison of Jaedong with Nada, though. And once again, thanks for the effort. edit: I hadn't read "Letmelose"s post before posting, and he touches on a few things I wrote about. So, e,f,b. | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
On September 20 2009 06:25 TheYango wrote: No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR. I'd agree with this. However, I think Plexa is making a distinction between a Mechanical and Strategical player, and based on what I wrote about Zerg in the previous post, I don't think that is a fair distinction to make for Zerg players in general, especially if, like myself, you believe players like Jaedong actually do a whole lot strategically but on a subtle level. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 20 2009 06:25 TheYango wrote: No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR. No one is holding it against him. In fact, it's probably even greater evidence of his resilience. But skill is not a measure of "what he could be". We can't make judgements on Jaedong's ability based on what things would be like if he had a easier practice schedule--because we can't know those things.We base on what is--how he played in the games he's played. Will we make note of his superhuman schedule? Yes. But that won't change losses into wins. Jaedong’s unwavering mentality has often been picked out as his best attributes by many people in the industry; I simply got the feeling that some people here regarded Jaedong as a one trick pony with mechanic perfection. Jaedong really does have exceptional belief in himself, and often commented in his interviews that he does try to “overwhelm” the opposing player through intimidation; something which I have not seen being done in reverse too often. I just wanted to point out that Jaedong has been quite mercurial with his build orders - and in an age where every coach is analyzing his play to the second to counter it – Jaedong never would have survived purely with his mechanics and mentality had he not been strategically versatile. In fact, some people are. If I am guilty of defending Jaedong for his “excessive” defeats in the Proleague with “what-could-have-been”, several people are doing the very same for Flash and Bisu. The fact of the matter is, Jaedong has won more BO1 matches than any other gamer this year, in a wider variety of maps, with heavier schedule demands and probably with more responsibility on his shoulders. It certainly does not change his defeats into victories. Just like Flash and Bisu can’t claim to have been better at BO1 matches because they have played less games with superior winning percentages. That in itself is an assumption that Flash and Bisu would have retained their winning percentages if they had the same number of games Jaedong had. Otherwise, we should have been celebrating Leta as the greatest BO1 player of recent days in 2008. Flash actually won more, and was regarded as the better of the two for that. I’m ready to settle for the same with Jaedong. | ||
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Leg[end]
United States241 Posts
On September 20 2009 02:47 LuisMl8 wrote: Amazing write-up yo Jaedong? bisu? i think Bisu is better than Jaedong, Jaedong havent invented anything he just play straigh up, and to keep in count he is Zerg user Zerg is 1a2a3a4a EZZ race IMO /facepalm | ||
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MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
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Lovin
Denmark812 Posts
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icclown
Denmark270 Posts
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On September 20 2009 09:02 n.DieJokes wrote: Rage- Plexa sing the rage of Jaedong, sucessor to sAviOr, murderous, doomed, that cost the protoss countless ZvP's; hurling out of starleagues so many hyped progamers Pretty sure the Iliad reference wins the thread. EDIT: Well, whatever of the thread was left to win after Plexa's article, that is. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: Very very good points. However I think the true measure of a players strategic caliber is his ability to react to what his opponent is doing. Anyone can sit down at a computer and work out a strategy to use in a game; thats all premeditated. However, when are you are faced with a out-of-left-field strategy your true strategic qualities begin to shine (or fail to shine). This, in part, addresses the concerns another poster had earlier on saying Zerg could not be a strategic race. That was some quality writing with very astute observations. Here are my thoughts on some of the points raised. Is Jaedong is a one note player with perfect mechanics? Jaedong does have truly amazing mechanics. This cannot be stressed enough. It allows him to have timing windows that a few can abuse, over commit to an attack with nothing but his micromanagement to rely on or power up with minimal defenses. In other words, his mechanics paves way to unconventional play quite frequently. Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly. It might be that people tend to remember his trademark “WTF just happened there” victories more than his strategic triumphs. His mutalisk/hydralisk joint attack against Flash on Destination after a crippling vulture raid, his probe snipe against Bisu to sneak zerglings through on what was a sure build order loss on Andromeda, his overlord bait into zergling lurker break against Canata on Outsider and his zergling surround on the bunker after a failed 4 pool against Fantasy are all examples of how Jaedong can pull a victory out of nothing. It’s one of the reasons why Jaedong is above the rest, because a simple lapse of misjudgment by the opponent is enough to allow a killer blow from Jaedong. Jaedong’s games are a bit of everything: a seemingly normal game that ends abruptly due to Jaedong’s killer instincts, standard games that show off Jaedong’s amazing late game mechanics, clever trickeries such early mineral-only expansions and seemingly ridiculous strategies that only Jaedong can pull off. Savior’s strategic forte allowed him to look superior against all opponents because all the moves made by his opponents were within his expectations. Jaedong’s insight isn’t quite there yet. His greatest attribute is his mechanics of course, and that forces him to play a wide variety of styles (even more so than Savior) because the disparity in mechanical skill truly kicks in when his opponent is caught off guard. What he lacks in strategic depth, he makes up for with in game intuition and constant switching of styles to keep his opponents unable to react properly to his troop movement or game plan. The thing about Jaedong is that while he can always devise a new strategy to abuse his sickening mechanics (e.g. vs fantasy on chupung) but he doesn't always respond to his opponents in the best way. Before I get on to elaborating about that, I hope you agree that while Jaedong does use a variety of styles, they all basically revolve around him taking control of the game and using his mechanics to dissect his opponent with surgical like precision. You noted the 4pool again Fantasy - this is a great example of Jaedong employing his trademark style in my opinion. Anyway, getting back to Jaedong not responding the best, when Jaedong is forced to respond to his opponent he often makes mistakes. For instance, that long drawn out game against Free on Athena is a good example of this. Fantasy defeating him on Outisder is another example (and heartbreak). I think its important here to make the distinction between adapting in game and adapting across a series. I would argue that Jaedong doesn't 'adapt' to his opponent over the course of a Bo5 - he just never lets his intensity level drop for a second. I think someone else also mentioned this, and that person did a really good job explaining it so I won't bother to try and emulate that  . I think that Jaedong doesn't really adapt, he just does what he's practiced over and over again. However when it comes to working outside the realms of the practice room he begins to falter. That's what I mean by being 'weak' strategically. Does Jaedong falter when it comes Proleague matches? I have been arguing for the longest time the importance of Proleague matches on TL it seems. The preparation put into Proleague matches, has the weight of an entire team going behind it. It’s where all the money is. I don’t rate players like Kwanro because of his relative position the team in comparison to Effort despite the fact that he is an MSL finalist. People who fail to make any major impact in the Proleague should be judged accordingly just like the Proleague aces who fail miserably in individual leagues. However, we should be extremely careful when we start using the Proleague as an apparatus for a player’s greatness. I dont disagree with anything you've written here, but I'd like to add that players who play a very similar style from game to game tend to do better in Proleague than others. For instance, since Jaedong's greatest strength is his mechanics he can afford to put in less practice 'figuring out' his opponent per game in proleague and just concentrate on doing what jaedong does best. This means he can cope with the heavier workload where others would fail. There are so many factors involved when Proleague matches are involved, that the might of a single player - no matter how awesome – plays a lesser role in comparison with the individual leagues. Boxer himself said in the post-match interview after the Grand Finals of the Proleague that they had practiced the ACE match build against multiple zerg players playing on team melee mode to check the potency of the build against a player of Jaedong’s caliber (he added that the effect of team melee mode is so great that Bisu, the best player on his team, cannot win against multiple players on team melee). When that many minds are working against you in collaboration, there are bound to be moments of weakness no matter how thoroughly prepared you are. After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him. Even Flash barely scraped over the 50% winning rate (5 wins 4 losses) in his ACE matches because every team had been gunning for him in matches against KTF, Jaedong actually had a respectable record of 9 wins and 4 losses in his ACE matches despite the opposing team having prior knowledge of the fact that Jaedong had to split his practice hours for a ACE match against all match-ups as well as his entry game. Bisu never had this kind of pressure. In this day and age, with every coach analyzing the plays of known players, talented players in their own right selectively practicing for the match against Jaedong knowing his defeat will cripple his team and the fatigue that comes with such huge responsibility over such a long period would makes things impossible for ANYONE to pull out a lone man effort to claim the Proleague title, yet Hwaseung Oz almost ACE’d their way to the top with only Jaedong to rely on. If this doesn’t get someone’s respect, I don’t know what else Jaedong can do to win it. | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
On September 20 2009 13:01 Shikyo wrote: And Sea has the same winning ratio as Stork although he's 2 years younger! ... So you want to say Sea is much worse than Stork in reality? x) | ||
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Thojorin
Germany162 Posts
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qaswedfr25
United States212 Posts
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