EPTHere To Stay - Page 9
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
On September 21 2009 00:05 Thojorin wrote: Just curious: why is the TL ELO calculation not used to compare players (as here for bisu v. jd)? Of course it's not the whole truth but it seems an important bit of information to me... objective methods of comparison are not objective in this case. Bisu has the better winning percentage of the two in the last year by a good 5% , his average ELO could be higher but Jaedong won the games that mattered the most and Bisu didnt. If you look at it as pure statistic JD lost every 3rd game in the last year, but in the end the badges are all that matter. ELO rankings and winning percentages are for fanboys + Show Spoiler + And yes, I clearly stand behind the statement that Bisu is more skillful and better player. The main reason for Jaedong's achievements are beyond the game itself - determination, mental stability, fighting spirit. All these qualities make him not only a remarkable starcraft player, but I'm sure will help him with whatever he tries to do with his life. Bisu is a cocky primadonna rock star, who thinks of himself as a down scaled version of God. But I love him for that | ||
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ForTheSwarm
United States556 Posts
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
I think Bisu is the second best in the world and one of my top 3 favourite gamers but he tends to win a lot of games that are served to him on a silver platter, and lose games versus tough(er) opponents. Plus hes got a sick team backing him. Sorry I REALLY don't want to start/continue a Bisu vs. Jaedong debate. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 21 2009 03:52 ShaperofDreams wrote: I think Bisu is the second best in the world and one of my top 3 favourite gamers but he tends to win a lot of games that are served to him on a silver platter, and lose games versus tough(er) opponents. Plus hes got a sick team backing him. On the contrary, he wins games against tough opponents, and drops games to second-class players arguably out of his own cockiness. Look at Bisu's set/single match losses from 2009 (discounting Winners League because that's a bad format for this kind of analysis: 2-3 Iris in Avalon MSL Zero, go.go in Bacchus OSL Group Stage Jangbi in Avalon MSL Group Stage PL Losses to Yellow, Hwasin, Stork, Violet, Great. 0-3 Fantasy in Batoo OSL 2-3 Jaedong in GOM Special Match Zero, Savior in Lost Saga MSL Group Stage 0-2 by.hero in Batoo OSL How many of those are games against opponents Bisu should consider difficult? The only ones of note are the 5sets against Iris and Jaedong (both characterized by uncharacteristically bad play in game 5-which I discussed previously in this thread), and a lone PL match vs Stork. The games Bisu loses are NOT against tough opponents, but the ones "served to him on a silver platter". | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
Maybe not Savior, and Stork isn't doing really well right now but still he is capable of great play. Violet is rising in pro league, so yeah I'd consider most of those guys quite good. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 21 2009 05:50 ShaperofDreams wrote: Those are all quite good players... Maybe not Savior, and Stork isn't doing really well right now but still he is capable of great play. Violet is rising in pro league, so yeah I'd consider most of those guys quite good. They're the standard of A-Class and B-class progamers Bisu faces. If NC.Yellow or Zero aren't "silver platter" games for Bisu, then what are? What players did you have in mind when you made the statement I quoted? It's not like he regularly faces players like Killer or Jjonga in matches that matter. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
Also my original post not only talks about player quality but team support. In Proleague non ace games Bisu is pretty comfy because even if he loses his team still stands a damn good chance. Again I don't want to derail this thread if you really want to get into a Jaedong vs. Bisu argument then PM me about it so I can ignore  | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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ReiKo
Croatia1023 Posts
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
they are legend and that's period. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
edit: Jaedong vs.Boxer's bunker rush into 3starport wraith is HIGHLY entertaining. | ||
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danieldrsa
Brazil523 Posts
However there are some "flamebaits" to Bisu fans i think you put by purpose to temper it. JD is indeed the best at the moment, one of my favorite players, however, different from the autor, i think stating he is far ahead is exageration for the golden mouse. Hes margin of superiority over Bisu is so little that i dont dare to call anything but an "even" rivalry. He has more anchievments but that just it. Its not a measure of actual skill. Statistics mean anything etc... But they have a value and its undeniable If you take recent games, even games from 1 year ago to today, Bisu´s ahead in win %, and saying its because Bisu fought easy oponents is just ridiculous. The person saying Bisu has more wins because he played less and only easy players is nothing but fail. This same argument can be used to say that, because JD played more, he played more easy opponents than Bisu (in number) and had the opportunity to got more win %. Also you saying Fantasy won the Proleague for SKT is complicated. Besides being a team, Bisu was more important to SKT 10 times than Fantasy. Hes much more responsible for the sucess (and if he played JD i think he could win also). Hes just not got the most wins prize over JD because hes not used so much as him. (and even was only 1 win away, despite playing much less than JD) Bisu=Proleague and WCG, and not only WCG. JD=OSL The tone of the article was like: "Bisu is nice but.....has more flaws, win less, do not won a decent title this year, etc... so hes much worst" Where it could be also like that: "Bisu has his flaws, but........showed a better win rate, destroyed Proleague more than JD, won WCG etc.....so hes just a little behind" Thats would make a huge difference. Sometime ago there was even an article saying the Proleague was becoming so much prestigious as the OSL. How things change because a golden mouse. Thats the problem in it. The last prize is the more important (except WCG it seems, well Bisu won, no wonder) Finally, the Bonjwa argument in the end is controversial. Lets see: - First people said that to be Bonjwa the player must win 3 OSLs-MSLs (mixed) in sequence - Than, it was said that in truth, it has more to " dominance". A scary overall win rate - After, it was said that to be bonjwa, the player must be considered it by unanimity of community - Now, it is said that the future will say who is Bonjwa To be honest, i think this semester will say if JD is bonjwa or not. Lets see how he will do. | ||
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FranzF1
Chile1710 Posts
On September 21 2009 09:17 danieldrsa wrote: Statistics mean anything etc... But they have a value and its undeniable If you take recent games, even games from 1 year ago to today, Bisu´s ahead in win %, and saying its because Bisu fought easy oponents is just ridiculous. The person saying Bisu has more wins because he played less and only easy players is nothing but fail. This same argument can be used to say that, because JD played more, he played more easy opponents than Bisu (in number) and had the opportunity to got more win %. Well I read only that and I have to say... You are really wrong... How play more games is benefical for Jaedong? just tell me how and the Winning % doesnt mean to much, OFC Bisu would get more winning % cus he didnt play like 5 Bo3 and 2 Bo5 series... When u play those u always get some loses and for that you get less winning % (and always against good oponents). I dont know if TLPD counts GoM but when Jaedong played against Effort (Bo5), Calm (Bo5), Fantasy (Bo5), YarnC (Bo5), Kal (Bo3), Canata (Bo5), Hwasin (Bo3), Kwanro (Bo3), Stork (Bo3), Luxury (Bo3), Zero (Bo3). You really think that Bisu playing all of those series would end with better winning % than Jaedong?? I dont really think so (And im not counting the group stages cus Bisu played that but ended losing there.) And people say that Bisu played more "easy" oponents its cus if u play on group stages and you lose people like gogo you are losing or playing against "easy" oponents, tell me 1 of those players that played a series against Jaedong and tell me just one "easy" oponent. | ||
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Armathai
1023 Posts
Going along those lines it'd be interesting to see if there are more comparisons between players of different races, so for example if Boxer=Savior Nada=Jaedong (in time), while current level of play is more like Jaedong=Bisu=Flash could we have some comparison like, Leta=Zero ? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 21 2009 06:29 ShaperofDreams wrote: Most of those players are A-class. Also my original post not only talks about player quality but team support. In Proleague non ace games Bisu is pretty comfy because even if he loses his team still stands a damn good chance. Again I don't want to derail this thread if you really want to get into a Jaedong vs. Bisu argument then PM me about it so I can ignore Ah, I misinterpreted what you said. In that case, I can agree with what you said. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
On September 21 2009 10:26 TheYango wrote: Ah, I misinterpreted what you said. In that case, I can agree with what you said. I shouldn't have used the "silver platter" thing since it is misleading. | ||
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DeSu
Australia91 Posts
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samwang
China7 Posts
On September 21 2009 03:25 ForTheSwarm wrote: I don't agree with the statement that Jaedong isn't a strategical genius. Just because he doesn't use high risk/high reward tactics doesn't mean his strategical grasp on the game isn't the best in the world. I feel Jaedong makes extremely smart strategical decisions that maximize the reward to risk ratio. Obviously his mechanics are incredible, and that's what allows his to play more safely and gradually build an advantage as the game progresses. This advantage comes from smart decisions though, whereas mechanics only help in the execution. i agree with you, and jaedong is the best, great write-up by the way | ||
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FakeKisser
United States159 Posts
I have to agree with what several people have said (here and elsewhere) that Jaedong is likely to be the last great SC1 player (assuming SC2 succeeds in progaming). Even though I wanted Fantasy to win the last OSL, the next best thing was to see Jaedong with the Golden Mouse. I am a Jaedong fan, though my Terran pride sometimes overshadows it. | ||
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