For me, the Fantasy-Jaedong OSL Semifinal was a lock for Fantasy. The kid had come out of his shell and showed that he is mechanically perfect and strategically brilliant. He had already defeated Jaedong twice in the Proleague Finals and crushed Jaedong’s spirit. His team won the Proleague because of him – he was on top of the world and full of confidence. To top it all off, Jaedong was humiliated by Calm in the MSL. No matter how you looked at it, everything was coming up Fantasy. He was going to usher in a new age of Progaming with his victory, and with it, end the reign of Jaedong forever.
Things don’t always work out how you expect them to and the Fantasy-Jaedong OSL Semifinal was one of those occasions. The first set fell to Fantasy in a decisive victory – only to have the following three sets fall to Jaedong in ruthless and dominating fashion. The anger inside me rose; how could Fantasy lose to Jaedong? Fantasy is the better player! There is something wrong here... How can Jaedong be fighting for the Golden Mouse... This is just madness.
Then it dawned on me; these feelings that were building inside me were not new feelings. Sure, I hate Jaedong, but this was something different to hate. The feeling was so similar to one thing – the feeling I got when watching Savior play in his prime. Savior just would not lose, and it was sickening. The man had such force and power behind his play – it his games looked so dominant, but I just wanted him to lose... Just to know that Savior is mortal like the rest of us.
Destiny unfolded, and Savior went on to do great things. Every game was a question of “is he going to be the one who takes him down for good?” and every time the answer was no. That was until Bisu at least. Jaedong has been building a similar aura for quite some time now and has become the center of the Progaming world. The whole scene is revolving around his every action and the question we are all wondering is - when is Jaedong going to lose?
Jaedong is a ruthless force in Progaming
We are at a point in Progaming history where Jaedong is transcending the level of the elite and becoming something more. While it is up to historians to say whether Jaedong is or is not a bonjwa – his force at the moment is strongly indicative of Jaedong soon being among them.
So what's different? Why suddenly has Jaedong overcome those final few barriers that had been hindering his play? Well, to be honest, there isn't anything in his play which changed at all. He is still playing brilliant Starcraft like he has been for the entire year. The thing which changed for Jaedong between the Proleague Finals and the OSL Semifinals is that he demonstrated unparalleled mental strength.
This is the one aspect about Jaedong which sets him apart from everyone else.
Fantasy dealt Jaedong a devastating blow to his spirit in the Proleague finals. The look on Jaedong's face as he typed out was one of sheer disappointment. Couple this blow with all the additional stress and pressure placed on Jaedong (like his MSL and OSL commitments) and you have enough factors to kill a Progamer’s career right there. When other Progamers were faced with similar challenges they all slumped and faded away. But that’s where Jaedong is different. He collected himself up, and fought his way back to the top of his game and destroyed Fantasy convincingly. No other Progamer has ever been able to do that.
Nothing stands in Jaedong's path to victory
Let me cite a few examples. Iloveoov was taken back when he lost to JulyZerg in the iTv Grand Finals, it was a devastating blow to him and indeed, was his first televised TvZ loss. A few weeks later he had to face JulyZerg in the Gillette OSL Semifinals – he was not able to overcome July there either. Boxer was absolutely devastated when he lost to Iloveoov in EVER2004 – the pain crippled him and he slumped. He bounced back though, but it took him just under a year to accomplish that. Nada was stopped dead in his tracks by two things – Savior defeating his SK Terran more thoroughly than any Zerg had done before, and his father passing away. Indeed, the latter destroyed Nada’s spirit and he went into a severe slump. Nada recovered, but it took him years to return to the top. Needless to say, Savior has not yet managed to recover from his loss to FireBatHero.
In all cases, the turn-around time for these gamers was at the very least months. Remember, these gamers are the Bonjwas of Progaming and they still struggled to return to the top. Jaedong however, suffered a defeat so powerful that it rivals any of events listed above. Yet Jaedong’s turnaround time was six days.
Six days – that’s all it took for him to look as formidable as ever.
It’s important to understand that Jaedong is not a strategical genius – not by a long shot. His play isn’t overwhelmingly clever, or brilliant. His play is characterised by his hand speed – his management, micro and ability to dictate the game. If Jaedong decides how the game is going to pan out he already has the advantage of having practiced those scenarios countless times. Once in those familiar circumstances, his mechanics and micro do the rest; and since his mechanics are simply unparalleled, he wins the vast majority of the time. Jaedong’s style is all about dictating the game to his opponent.
Jaedong's hands are an essential part of his play style
However, his strengths are also his weaknesses – because he is so used to dictating the game he struggles to adapt to new situations. Jaedong is weak when it comes to countering unconventional play or styles which are unconventional. For instance, Flash completely neutralised Jaedong in Bacchus S1 OSL by using Mech on Katrina - which was unconventional at the time. Calm completely took Jaedong out of his element in their MSL semifinal by using strategy, rather than mechanics, to beat him. Despite his decision making abilities being weak in comparison to his other traits, he is usually able to overcome this through his superior mechanics and as such looks untouchable.
The fact that Jaedong’s turnaround time is six days and the fact that his mechanics are unmatched are fundamentally intertwined. Both of these aspects about him come from his personality traits – Jaedong hates losing and he is determined to do anything to stop that from happening. This leads to Jaedong practicing more than any other Progamer in Korea, and it leads to him being the best. Indeed, when Jaedong was still a rookie he practiced so much he almost went insane; fortunately he realised this and took the appropriate measures to stop himself going crazy.
Jaedong’s determination and drive to succeed allow him to practice so much and it is also this determination and drive to succeed which allow him to come back so quickly. After losing to Fantasy I suspect that Jaedong returned to the practice room and practiced as hard and as thoroughly as he could for his upcoming OSL Semifinal. Where others would feel terrible and be broken for days, Jaedong was able to take this pain and turn it into fuel for more practice. This is just sickening, really.
Indeed, both Nal_rA and Kingdom share a similar opinion about Jaedong as I do;
Nal_rA= Jaedong's strength is his desire to win. I never was in the same team as him so it's a bit awkward, but when I talked to him in the waiting room he smiled. However, whenever he sits on the booth, his eyes change to those of a lion seeking prey.
Kingdom= You stressed his eye but I want to pick his physical as his strength. Even though Bisu's hands are fast, but Jaedong has an amazing physical. When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that.
- Translation thanks to l10f
Jaedong truly is The Tyrant of the Progaming world, and I think it is safe to conclude at the point that he is the most dominant Progamer right now. Nevertheless, one must think about other Progamers in relation to Jaedong. Where is Flash? Well he just won the most worthless league of the lot, and was crushed by Jaedong in the OSL. What about Fantasy? He’ll be having nightmares for months about his crushing losses to Jaedong. Leta? Leta can’t win a real game without cheesing.
Even Bisu is in awe when Jaedong plays
Special mention should be given to Bisu since many people consider the Jaedong-Bisu rivalry to be the defining match up of today. Last season Bisu fell out in spectacular fashion through his own sloppiness in both the MSL and OSL. There really is no excuse for how poorly he played against Iris - he held solid advantages in both games three and five yet was not able to convert due to carelessness and poor decision making. In the OSL he was taken out through strategic plays. While every player is bound to lose to strategic plays every now and then, this has become a recurring theme for Bisu which is indicative of a deeper problem in his play.
Despite this, he recently came back and won WCG Korea. Ultimately though, Bisu at the moment can't hold a flame to Jaedong since he still makes too many mistakes in important matches. For instance, when Bisu lost to Jaedong in the GOM Final it was due to a basic mistake, his loss to Iris came from sloppy play and so on. When Bisu stops making those basic errors maybe he will be able to challenge Jaedong. Until then, Bisu just has far too many gaps in his play.
Jaedong stands head and shoulders above his competition as a true champion, and the moment he raised the Golden mouse there could be no more doubts about him. Jaedong is the real deal, and he’s not going away anytime soon.
Jaedong’s rise to the top reminds me of Nada in so many ways. On a really basic level, there is a clear similarity between their styles. Nada made a name for himself as the fastest progamer when he debuted since he had well over 400 apm. As a result, his mechanics were unmatched by his contemporaries. He was able to harass with Vultures while mass producing Tanks at the same time without missing a round – his opponents were simply unable to keep up with this Terran phenomenon. Similarly, Jaedong’s play can be characterised in almost the exact same way. There is a strong focus on mechanics, as well as a focus on Mutalisk harass.
The similarities extend further than that as well. Nada was the second great Terran player after Boxer. Boxer revolutionised Terran and made Terran a competitive race at the top level. His influence on the Progaming world is unmatched, and is beloved by all. Without doubt, Boxer is more loved than Nada despite the fact that Nada has won more titles. Nada is forever living in Boxer’s shadow, and as a result will only be known as the second best Terran ever.
Zerg never really had a champion they could follow and copy. YellOw was incapable of winning anything of meaning, while July’s style was tuned specifically to him so that no one else could replicate it effectively. Nevertheless, if you had to pick someone to have influenced the Zerg race more than anyone else before Savior, it would be GoRush. But GoRush only ever won one MSL. So really, Zerg never had their Boxer-like figure which revolutionised Zerg. That was, until Savior. Savior truly made Zerg a competitive race and he did so by developing 3 Hatch Zerg, a style which everyone could use. Just compare the number of titles won by Zergs before Savior and after Savior to see the difference he made.
Everyone still has a soft spot for Savior and every time he gets a pity spot on the CJ lineup we cry out in joy and go crazy. Jaedong is the second great Zerg, and has to live in Savior’s shadow, just like Nada had to live in Boxer’s. There is no doubt in my mind that Jaedong is going to go on and become more successful than Savior in every way, but with that said he is never going to receive the appreciation that Savior gets. Similar to how Nada can never pass Boxer, no matter how successful he is.
This is not just conjecture, just take a look at the All-Star 2009 Poll Results
Let me briefly discuss the significance of these results. Firstly, it's important to remember that Savior and Nada were both finalists for the Starcraft Heritage League meaning that of the old school players on the list - those two are the most skilled. Boxer, indeed, was destroyed by Nada 2-1 in the Heritage League. Despite this, Boxer placed significantly higher than Nada simply because he is loved so much. Similarly, Jaedong is in his prime right now. It is difficult to comprehend him being more popular at any other point in time. Despite this, Savior, who is still very much in a slump, edged him out by 2% of the total vote. Surely if Savior was in form this poll would have been even more one sided.
The similarities continue; Nada is the most successful player of all time, and Jaedong is going to seriously challenge that in the coming months. Both Nada and Jaedong are born for success; both were winning titles at a young age and making huge waves in the Progaming scene for various feats. Jaedong generated hype when he was the most successful player in the 2006 Proleague, while Nada rose to prominence after defeating ChRh in a Pros vs Amateurs showmatch (Nada was the amateur). Nada was the first player to win the Golden Mouse, and Jaedong was number three. As already mentioned, Jaedong’s success comes from his inhuman amount of practice. Not surprisingly, Nada too practiced a lot in his younger days.
The parallels between Nada and Jaedong go on, like how they both carried their respective teams (P&C and Hwaseung) throughout the Proleague. Both players never really had the support of a second ace during their primes. Nada sort-of had Goodfriend before he was bought by KTF and Jaedong had Anytime before he enlisted into the Airforce. Nevertheless, their sole efforts were enough to boost their respective teams to a competitive level.
Both Nada and Jaedong have had a profound influence on the TvZ matchup. Jaedong's crazy-zerg style has had a massive influence on the results in this matchup. Stryker translated an amazing article detailing the exact influence of this strategy here and I implore you to go read it. Similarly, Nada developed SK Terran into the ultimate TvZ weapon. His TvZ was once dubbed 'perfect' since his Vessel Cloud would just irradiate anything that moved. It come as no surprised as well, that both these styles work so well for Jaedong and Nada because of their incredible mechanics.
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Jaedong is an amazing individual. If he is ever classed as a bonjwa by future generations, then the trait he should be remembered for is his unwavering determination to succeed against all odds. A long time ago I argued that Flash was going to become the greatest player alive because of his ability to manipulate people’s mindsets – little could I have imagined that there would be a player that has mental toughness like an ox and does not give in – ever.
Jaedong is the player that is defining this generation of Progaming. Whether you want to accept that fact or not is up to you. As TL's #1 Jaedong anti-fan I’ve been trying to convince myself that he will never truly be the best, but I can’t run from the truth anymore.
No one can stand in Jaedong’s way - he's here to stay.
i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
On September 19 2009 09:54 xMiragex wrote: i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
Great that you disagree - but why exactly? I've brought up a few examples of Bisu's play from the recent leagues which clearly show that there's still something fundamentally lacking from his game which is making him make too many mistakes. Jaedong's play is just that much more refined than Bisu's - indeed i think it's very telling that the deciding game of their GOM match was Bisu making a stupid mistake and throwing away the series.
i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD
On September 19 2009 09:54 xMiragex wrote: i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
Great that you disagree - but why exactly? I've brought up a few examples of Bisu's play from the recent leagues which clearly show that there's still something fundamentally lacking from his game which is making him make too many mistakes. Jaedong's play is just that much more refined than Bisu's - indeed i think it's very telling that the deciding game of their GOM match was Bisu making a stupid mistake and throwing away the series.
maybe lack of discipline? its not a skill thing, any B-Teamer could've made the block on that game 5 on GOM. its a mental thing, yes jaedong is faster than bisu but to me it seems both of them have roughly the same knowledge and similar speed to what is required of their race. how do you blow a lead? lack of skill? of course not.
the point being, bisu lacks something not easily definable.
Great write-up. I find it kind of sad that Nada never gets any love actually. Hopefully Jaedong is more beloved once he leaves his prime than poor Nada.
Plexa - god of articles lol. Thanks for great read!
However part mentioning NaDa makes me sad - my fav. player of all time nowadays seems so... abandoned by fans IMO...
And well, Bisu's style stopped amusing me quite some time ago. On the other hand - JD progresses all the time. TBH even though i wasn't too much of JD fan I've felt that watching most of leagues this season was about seeing who can defeat JaeDong, all other players were overshadowed by him
Great article, read it word for word, something I hardly ever do online lol. I've got to agree with most of what was said... Jaedong's definitely here to stay. IMO he's practically got a lock on the next couple titles after the break. He just seems like one of those rare players whose skill and determination is still increasing steadily, even after all he's done. In a way I'm glad he hasn't been named a bonjwa by majority consensus yet as he still has something to strive for. I'm not sure anyone can stop him but Bisu, or maybe Kal, some PvZ specialist...
On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD
It's going to be Effort. Savior and Effort are on the same team and Effort seems poised to follow Savior's footsteps and become a S class zerg. All Effort needs to do now is to win a few titles.
On September 19 2009 09:54 xMiragex wrote: i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
Great that you disagree - but why exactly? I've brought up a few examples of Bisu's play from the recent leagues which clearly show that there's still something fundamentally lacking from his game which is making him make too many mistakes. Jaedong's play is just that much more refined than Bisu's - indeed i think it's very telling that the deciding game of their GOM match was Bisu making a stupid mistake and throwing away the series.
maybe lack of discipline? its not a skill thing, any B-Teamer could've made the block on that game 5 on GOM. its a mental thing, yes jaedong is faster than bisu but to me it seems both of them have roughly the same knowledge and similar speed to what is required of their race. how do you blow a lead? lack of skill? of course not.
the point being, bisu lacks something not easily definable.
Well, the thing is, both have the exact same formula to be good at Starcraft - which is something I didn't bother talking about. Both practice an obscene amount. Bisu used to be defined by his Corsairs and Harass, but more recently its been his clean and precise play. He too has become somewhat trapped in the 'not being able to adapt' category - his use of hallucination again iris and his poor decisions with regard to his troop movement seem to be indicative of this. At the end of the day, Jaedong can deliver consistency while Bisu can't yet - hence why at the moment I would pick Jaedong over Bisu in a bo5.
Since I am rather new on the proscene, post savior, I do love this articles. This starts out as a article about Jaedong and why he is so good, but brings out a very important discussion. Where are all the great minds today?
I know that boxer, iloveoov, savior and to some extent bisu changed how we play the game (as you go into in your article). But where are the new minds? Sure Bisu is still playing on a fairly high level, but who will come in and change how we play ZvT? TvP? Sure Fantasy has played mech, but the feeling I'm getting is that he would not be where he is today if it wasnt for oov and boxer.
Because no matter how hard you try you cannot say that Jaedong has changed his best MU, ZvZ. He has a huge win% but what has he brough into the matchup that's new? Nothing except his nearly perfect mechanics. If you watched nongmin while he was streaming you noticed one thing: he was doing the same builds over and over again with VERY small variations. And from the little information I have it seems that's what todays players do to get better. I remember reading a translation of someone saying "When a coach asks a player to play 100 games to prepair for a single game in proleague players will often complain, not jaedong he thinks 100 games is a minimum". Impressive? Yes. Good for the future of StarCraft? No! Has starcraft stopped evolving?
Who will step out of the gigantic shadow cast by the older players and bring something new to us, the players and fans?
(I just wanted to add that I'm a HUGE jaedong fan)
Ninjaedit: If you didnt get that from the first paragraph: I loved the article, keep up the good work.
I think when Jaedong micro'd two sets of stacked mutalisks in two different places at once, I realised his 400 apm was not just a joke.
I don't know why anyone would be hesitant to proclaim Jaedong in league with the best players of all time. Sure, I have sAviOr nostalgia too.. But while sAviOr evokes an image of a grand conqueror, sitting high atop his chair and calling the shots, to me Jaedong brings to mind a gritty fighter who is in the fray everyday and is somehow surviving.
The climate of progaming has totally changed. When sAviOr was in charge, it was everyone's job to take him down. "This player is good" was always said ignoring sAviOr, because players simply weren't on his level for longer than a week. Some people went toe to toe with him, but until Bisu it never lasted.
Enter Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Stork, and a host of others. Suddenly we've got lots of players who all have what it takes to beat each other. The micro, the macro, the strategy, are all amazing. No one is challenging the leader, but vying for the position of leader. The player who's remained impressive, and who's losses were followed by grand victories is Jaedong.
I don't think StarCraft is anything like it was in sAviOr's age. But definitely Jaedong has pulled ahead in what is probably the most difficult time in StarCraft to make a name for yourself.
how could Fantasy lose to Jaedong? Fantasy is the better player!
I have highlighted the flaw in your logic edit: ok now that I've actually finished reading the article I can compliment you on a well-written dead on article
On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD
It's going to be Effort. Savior and Effort are on the same team and Effort seems poised to follow Savior's footsteps and become a S class zerg. All Effort needs to do now is to win a few titles.
Equivalent to iloveoov how? His dominance or 'macro' style?
was just wandering .... were boxer nada and savior in their prime were called bonjwas or was it after no i'm not bringing this debate to the table just asking cause history will call him the 4th bonjwa beautiful article plexa enjoyed the reading of it edit oups forgot i loveoove sorry make it 5th than
On September 19 2009 10:15 Julmust wrote: Since I am rather new on the proscene, post savior, I do love this articles. This starts out as a article about Jaedong and why he is so good, but brings out a very important discussion. Where are all the great minds today?
I know that boxer, iloveoov, savior and to some extent bisu changed how we play the game (as you go into in your article). But where are the new minds? Sure Bisu is still playing on a fairly high level, but who will come in and change how we play ZvT? TvP? Sure Fantasy has played mech, but the feeling I'm getting is that he would not be where he is today if it wasnt for oov and boxer.
Because no matter how hard you try you cannot say that Jaedong has changed his best MU, ZvZ. He has a huge win% but what has he brough into the matchup that's new? Nothing except his nearly perfect mechanics. If you watched nongmin while he was streaming you noticed one thing: he was doing the same builds over and over again with VERY small variations. And from the little information I have it seems that's what todays players do to get better. I remember reading a translation of someone saying "When a coach asks a player to play 100 games to prepair for a single game in proleague players will often complain, not jaedong he thinks 100 games is a minimum". Impressive? Yes. Good for the future of StarCraft? No! Has starcraft stopped evolving?
Who will step out of the gigantic shadow cast by the older players and bring something new to us, the players and fans?
(I just wanted to add that I'm a HUGE jaedong fan)
Ninjaedit: If you didnt get that from the first paragraph: I loved the article, keep up the good work.
You bring up excellent points and they are all points which me and riptide have been hours upon hours discussion. Personally I think fantasy and calm are the antithesis to Jaedong and Bisu. Jaedong/Bisu excel at precision and practice while Fantasy/Calm excel at strategy and flair. The great minds are still there - and they always have been there. I think its just harder to maintain dominance over a long period of time being a strategic player. Mostly because once people figure you out you need to change your entire style again to remain ahead of the curve. That constant process of reinvention is extremely difficult - which is why Fantasy remaining at the top for the past year time is so impressive (his TvZ never stops evolving, neither does his TvP). Calm has just broken out with his strategy - if he can keep developing his strategy and stay ahead of the curve he too will go on to be wildly successful.
Jaedong on the other hand hasn't brought anything new to the table since he's been at the top. And the thing is, because of his style, he doesn't need to. There are minor modifications like earlier hydras in TvZ to counter mech, but on the whole, his 2hatch muta style is still as viable as ever. This extends through to Bisu as well and so on.
I wouldn't worry if I were you - the strategic minds will always rise to the top. And strategy will always beat out raw mechanics; but once that strategy is worked out, then the mechanics will win once again. I think that partly explains why Jaedong lost to fantasy in the proleague, but was able to win in the OSL - if the order of those events were reversed I think we'd have a different result.
On September 19 2009 10:16 Chef wrote: I think when Jaedong micro'd two sets of stacked mutalisks in two different places at once, I realised his 400 apm was not just a joke.
I don't know why anyone would be hesitant to proclaim Jaedong in league with the best players of all time. Sure, I have sAviOr nostalgia too.. But while sAviOr evokes an image of a grand conqueror, sitting high atop his chair and calling the shots, to me Jaedong brings to mind a gritty fighter who is in the fray everyday and is somehow surviving.
The climate of progaming has totally changed. When sAviOr was in charge, it was everyone's job to take him down. "This player is good" was always said ignoring sAviOr, because players simply weren't on his level for longer than a week. Some people went toe to toe with him, but until Bisu it never lasted.
Enter Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Stork, and a host of others. Suddenly we've got lots of players who all have what it takes to beat each other. The micro, the macro, the strategy, are all amazing. No one is challenging the leader, but vying for the position of leader. The player who's remained impressive, and who's losses were followed by grand victories is Jaedong.
I don't think StarCraft is anything like it was in sAviOr's age. But definitely Jaedong has pulled ahead in what is probably the most difficult time in StarCraft to make a name for yourself.
I really don't like it when people say that Starcraft is different now to savior's age - because its just not. Yes it was everyone's job to take down savior, but right now it's everyone's job to take out Jaedong. Savior had some really stiff competition in his time - Nada, Nal_ra, Chojja, Midas, Iris etc. Which is no different to today really.
I disagree that people didn't go toe to toe with savior for long periods of time - Nal_ra went mostly toe to toe for two seasons. Midas for the following 2, Nada went at savior really hard at the end of his reign and came out with a good result. Savior was the best player, and the fact that he won all the time is a testament to his greatness, but to say he wasn't pushed to his limit on occasion is very wrong - this is the exact same circumstances in which Jaedong is thriving.
On September 19 2009 10:26 barbahaba0 wrote: was just wandering .... were boxer nada and savior in their prime were called bonjwas or was it after no i'm not bringing this debate to the table just asking cause history will call him the 4th bonjwa beautiful article plexa enjoyed the reading of it
bonjwa is a term applied in retrospect, so savior wasn't called a bonjwa when was in his prime - he was just known as the best after his prime though, he was classed among them
There's a distinction you fail to make between hating to lose and the burning desire to win. Maybe we just have different opinions, but if Jaedong is a lion then all he is interested in is the warm tasty blood of his opponent. That is the thrill. That is his prize. Losing is not part of the equasion.
Watching Jaedong play is what made me start playing starcraft again after nearly a decade to remember the joy in the game is still there and that Zerg is still the race true to my heart.
I think part of the reason that Jaedong can exist in Savior's shadow, is because Savior came first. People don't just feel awe when they remember Savior's dominance, they feel nostalgic. And that is a major factor.
I don't mean to speak for everyone here, as I'm sure that many would disagree, but if you look at the results of the All Stars vote, Savior isn't on top because he's the best Zerg, but because people remember him being the best.
The grass is greener on the other side and it's even more so when that 'other side' only exists in your memory.
edit - great read by the way. Thanks for posting that Plexa!
the boxer's shadow and savior's shadow thing is a really good question . but i think jaedong can be more than that . nada had made years and years to get his success and results . jaedong had not . he had made his succes and results in 2 years or more . nada is nearly 6 years .
jaedong is changing , he is getting smarter and smarter , his instinct is growing more and more , he is showing some new face of starcraft . some psychologic , instinctive and determination face . jaedong is MUCH smarter than he was in 2007 . and he will be ever more . his brain is NOT his weakness . he is smarter than many others progamers . i think discuss about that is wrong right now , i think we have to wait the end of his career and see how his impact was .
i think his weakness is his personnality and integrity . in the jaedong vs fantasy PL round 4@heatbreak ridge , jaedong had avdantage but choose anyway to continue mutas until the death . if he swithched in a more classic way , he would have won easy . he know that , but he just wanted to crush fantasy in HIS way , in the way he CHOOSE . he wanted to crush fantasy with mutalisks just to humiliate him and get THE satisfaction he looked for .
i think we can say his stubborn is his weakness . but in my opinion its just integrity to himself .
i think jaedong has not finished to blow us . he blowed us about his micro and handspeed , he blowed us about his mental strengh and instinct . i think he can blow us on other stuffs . we just have to wait to see it .
On September 19 2009 10:47 vaMpYr wrote: i think jaedong has not finished to blow us . he blowed us about his micro and handspeed , he blowed us about his mental strengh and instinct . i think he can blow us on other stuffs . we just have to wait to see it .
I would recommend rephrasing that slightly; changing it to "blow our minds", or "amaze us". It just sounds, well, a little bit wrong, the other way.
On September 19 2009 09:54 xMiragex wrote: i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
Great that you disagree - but why exactly? I've brought up a few examples of Bisu's play from the recent leagues which clearly show that there's still something fundamentally lacking from his game which is making him make too many mistakes. Jaedong's play is just that much more refined than Bisu's - indeed i think it's very telling that the deciding game of their GOM match was Bisu making a stupid mistake and throwing away the series.
Tbh to me not blocking properly is a similarly stupid mistake as accidentally cancelling your spire and losing because of that. Plus I think despite the mistakes Bisu made vs Iris he played great. However, I still agree that Jaedong is a lvl above him and this was a great article to read, very nice job.
On September 19 2009 10:47 vaMpYr wrote: i think jaedong has not finished to blow us . he blowed us about his micro and handspeed , he blowed us about his mental strengh and instinct . i think he can blow us on other stuffs . we just have to wait to see it .
I would recommend rephrasing that slightly; changing it to "blow our minds", or "amaze us". It just sounds, well, a little bit wrong, the other way.
On September 19 2009 09:54 xMiragex wrote: i totally disagree that jaedong is head and shoulders above bisu, but as much as im not very fond of jaedong i do admit hes the best. just like it was mentioned, his mental toughness is what makes him stand out.
Great that you disagree - but why exactly? I've brought up a few examples of Bisu's play from the recent leagues which clearly show that there's still something fundamentally lacking from his game which is making him make too many mistakes. Jaedong's play is just that much more refined than Bisu's - indeed i think it's very telling that the deciding game of their GOM match was Bisu making a stupid mistake and throwing away the series.
I'd say the only real difference between Jaedong and Bisu's play is their consistency. Occasionally, Bisu will make strategic blunders that just make you go "WTF was he smoking?", but when both players are at the very top of their game, in a head to head match I would not give either player the advantage.
Nada came into the scene like a Tornado and pummelled every single player into the ground. He detroyed zergs helplessly with his insane micro / macro. He out macroed / strategized Terrans. And he crushed Protoss with his massive macroed armies.
Before Iloveoov, Nada was THE CHEATER Terran. In a Kingdom vs Nada game, Korean commentators were laughing at Nada's 200/200 2/2 mech army A clicking from Nada's base into Kingdom's natural. It was typical Nada, nothing less from him was expected.
People would take games / series from Nada here and there, but he ALWAYS came back to defeat those same players not long after. No one was the favorite.
The exact same can be said about Jaedong. Nobody can understand Jaedong's cheater ZvZ. His ZvT is aggressively monstrous. His ZvP is powerful and still a favorite against any Protoss.
Jaedong came into the scene like a powerful Tornado and swept everything / everyone from his path.
1-2 more years from now, history will look back at Jaedong and call him
On September 19 2009 10:27 Plexa wrote: Jaedong on the other hand hasn't brought anything new to the table since he's been at the top. And the thing is, because of his style, he doesn't need to. There are minor modifications like earlier hydras in TvZ to counter mech, but on the whole, his 2hatch muta style is still as viable as ever. This extends through to Bisu as well and so on.
On August 05 2009 10:00 EvoChamber wrote:
But you may be downplaying just how much Protoss was walking over Zerg before Jaedong's ascension at EVER. Yes, his vP was terrible before and up to game 1 against Stork. But as Hot_Bid pointed out in his FE, Jaedong learned ZvP right before our eyes in the finals of the most coveted prestigious league. Less than a month later, he proved the viability of 3hatch scourge->5hatch hydra against the world's best PvZer, Bisu, on Blue Storm and began the counter-revolution against forge FE that's reversed nearly all the advantages in strategy and morale that Bisu earned when he slaughtered Savior. At the same time, he was raping Terrans left and right with 2hatch muta and winning the great majority of his ZvZs. Only the sudden rise of Flash prevented him from winning both leagues that spring. It's possible that Jaedong's ZvP might still be abysmal if he had played Bisu in the EVER finals instead of Stork, but that's not what happened. Just as Flash would do in Bacchus, he used Stork to evolve his vP matchup to an S-class level and soon reversed the flow of the metagame (no more carriers vs. T, no more sair/dt vs. Z). Jaedong's strategic achievements (regression to 2hatch vs. T, expansion to 5hatch vs. P, complete paradigm shift vZ) are not as flashy as Savior's (3 hatch muta->lurker/defiler->ultra/ling vs. T, muta/lurk vs. P), but they have also had a great influence on the metagame. The reason 75% of OSL/MSL semifinalists are Zerg this season isn't just maps; it's also Jaedong, who proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the metagame that players with a broader strategic vision and weaker mechanics, like Savior, could not, or at the very least make those problems easier to solve.
Is a pretty good rebuttal to that.
Also Plexa, before you say it, JD was the one who showed that the way to counter sairs was with scourge. (Not the July vs Best game) Just see the JD vs Bisu game on BS.
Edit: Also, his zvp developments even lead for people like ret to understand and dominate the matchup now.
On July 29 2009 22:43 ret wrote: Right now, I feel like my ZvP is easily my best matchup. And I owe it all to the Bisu vs Jaedong game on destination. I feel like there is nothing protoss can do that I can't counter.
I think Bisu's style relies more upon breaking down his opponents psychologically, with moments of trickery and skillful maneuvers, whereas Jaedong's is more about applying constant, unrelenting and crushing pressure on his. Of course, the effects can often be the same, but the methods are different.
What does this mean for the two of them, with regards to their weaknesses? Well, as we've seen from Bisu, he seems to fall apart a little bit when his opponents don't crumble in the way (or at the time) he expects them to, ie. Bisu vs Iris, while Jaedong seems to not cope well (as Plexa pointed out) when his opponent refuses to submit to his pressure and dictatorial style, ie. JD vs Fantasy.
What does this mean for the two of them, with regards to them going head-to-head? It will always be an epic battle of wills; with both of them struggling, in their own way, to gain the psychological advantage over the other.
I don't think it's a case of which one will win, but rather which one will lose control first.
Amazing article as always Plexa, regardless of the time interval, it always feels like it's been too long since your last! Additional props for writing this even though you dislike Jaedong!
On September 19 2009 11:05 Tien wrote: And to all those arguing that Bisu isn't inferior to Jaedong.
Bisu vs Jaedong may be an even matchup. Just like how Yellow's stats vs Nada are even.
But Nada was the better player than Yellow. Nada won when it mattered.
Jaedong is better than Bisu. Jaedong wins when it matters.
Considering Bisu have won 4 of the 5 finals (with 2 of them vs the best vsP players at the time) hes entered I don`t think you can say he don`t win when it matters.... (Except for in the OSL, but he seems cursed to never win one)
Great article man. Not sure i'd entirely agree with your statistical analysis though. The All-Star poll results are some indication of popularity, but with many contaminants. For instance:
A bias towards players who are less often playing televised matches. People see less of Boxer, Yellow, Savior these days and want to see them play again.
Strategic voting bias. People look at the current tally, and see players missing out on the top spots. They then vote for these players because they want to see them in the tournament, not because they're voting for their favourite player.
On September 19 2009 11:19 Alethios wrote: Great article man. Not sure i'd entirely agree with your statistical analysis though. The All-Star poll results are some indication of popularity, but with many contaminants. For instance:
A bias towards players who are less often playing televised matches. People see less of Boxer, Yellow, Savior these days and want to see them play again.
Strategic voting bias. People look at the current tally, and see players missing out on the top spots. They then vote for these players because they want to see them in the tournament, not because they're voting for their favourite player.
Thanks for the write up.
Yeah true, I didn't vote for Jaedong despite him being my favourite player by far, simply cause I was sure that Oz would send him out either way
This was a great article, but I feel like you seriously downplayed Iris' win over Bisu. Iris definitely brought his A game and his win was more of a product of his own abilities, than it was of Bisu's failings. But you are totally right about Jaedong and I am sure that he will continue to show us how to play Starcraft next season.
As a rabid FE fan this is an awesome write-up Plexa, thank you so much.
As a rabid Savior fan, he is not put on the PL lineup, I believe, out of pity. He is put out there because he is a good player back at CJ headquarters when he practices.
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
I always look forward to reading what you have to write Plexa. It's because you write with passion and definitely have a flair which few writers do. Enjoyed reading this! Good job.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him..
Jaedong repopularized 2 hatch muta in ZvT
Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr.
Savior lost in 2 msl finals, meanwhile Jaedong has only lost in 1 starleague finals.
NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
Nada has been around for a lot longer then Jaedong, give Jaedong a chance to catch up then compare career achievements.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009.
Jaedong has won back to back OSL finals, ro4 of msl, 3rd place in wcg korea, and single handedly carried his team to the proleague finals. Bisu's only individual league achievement this year is wcg korea. 2 OSL's > WCG
I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
Jaedong has gone deep in almost every starleague this year, therefore he has been facing harder competition then Bisu who has been getting knocked out of starleagues early.
Amazing write up Plexa... trully amazing. And like always people will defend his favorites players until death (Bisu and Jaedong fans) but u cant say that Bisu and Jaedong are on the same level now, just cant. I didnt saw Jaedong like the Zerg's Nada, but yeah its like him lol. That just remind me of that great player that is Nada... Nada FIGHTING!
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
yeah this was basically already answered: Reason why JD is better: JD wins when it matters, Bisu doesn't.
Also JD did strongly influence all matchups. ZvZ was considered rock paper scissors before Jaedong, ZvT was already mentioned, ZvP 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra.. it's not exactly rare you see the build used nowadays is it
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
I just wanted to let you know that SnIpEuOuT owned your face.
Jaedong is not the most creative player but yet he wins with standard predefined strategies with deadly precision and timing. This just further amazes me that Jaedong's opponents almost know what Jaedong is going to do and yet they have not come up with a counter to stop it. So Jaedong doesn't have to be the creative player. If its not broken why fix it?
But for a Jaedong vs Bisu series I only give Jaedong the advantage because I am a huge Jaedong fan and the series can go either way.
Jaedong definitely had big influences on StarCraft because he showed us that standard strategies done to nearest perfection is as effective as creative play.
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
So from the winrates you posted i see bisu played 28 fewer games than JD and alot of the games JD played were more stressful, high pressure games like ace games in proleague. So from those stats i conclude bisu plays on a super team and mostly comes out in games favorable for him. Im willing to bet JD would have superior winrates if he didnt have to completely carry his team and worry about starleague matches.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him..
Jaedong repopularized 2 hatch muta in ZvT
Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr.
Savior lost in 2 msl finals, meanwhile Jaedong has only lost in 1 starleague finals.
NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
Nada has been around for a lot longer then Jaedong, give Jaedong a chance to catch up then compare career achievements.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009.
Jaedong has won back to back OSL finals, ro4 of msl, 3rd place in wcg korea, and single handedly carried his team to the proleague finals. Bisu's only individual league achievement this year is wcg korea. 2 OSL's > WCG
I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
Jaedong has gone deep in almost every starleague this year, therefore he has been facing harder competition then Bisu who has been getting knocked out of starleagues early.
Repopularising and creating are 2 completely different things. and he didnt even repopularise 2hatch muta... 2hatch muta was still commonly used in 2006... Not every zerg in 2006/2007 used 3hatch muta builds, not only that but a lot of progamers still use 3hatch builds sometimes, jaedong and effort included. Jaedong lost in an MSL and OSL 3-0'd by ForGG, and 3-1'd by Therock(lol)
You forgot your own point. You said nothing about creating.
NaDa didn't create a new matchup, Jaedong did. No one played JvZ before.
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
So the fact that Jaedong ran deep into all individual Leagues and won a third OSL and carried Oz to PL finals is refuted by game statistics ? That's weak.
I do like how you framed you statistics with flame bait.
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
So the fact that Jaedong ran deep into all individual Leagues and won a third OSL and carried Oz to PL finals is refuted by game statistics ? That's weak.
I do like how you framed you statistics with flame bait.
Here's to a Jaedong-Bisu OSL final
lol no, Jaedong got 3rd place in wcg.. But Bisu got 1st.. and yes i know he carried his team to finals.. But Bisu won the finals..
lol no, Jaedong got 3rd place in wcg.. But Bisu got 1st.. and yes i know he carried his team to finals.. But Bisu won the finals..
Troll more. Fantasy won the finals. JD won a starleague, Bisu didn't... he didn't even make it out of the RO16 of the OSL... OSL holds more prestige than WCG. JD didn't need to win WCG either, he just needed to get top 3 =/. And.. um... how far did each make it in the MSL? Who had more wins in Proleague? Who played more matches? Do I hear JD?
I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him.. Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr. NaDa has 22 achievements, vs Jaedongs 11.
"upset=bisu 3-0" no, that wasn't an upset, that was the beginning of the end.
looks like Bisu is yawning in that picture.
Jaedong ISNT above Bisu for 2009. The only thing that you could use to argue is that Jaedong was busy carrying his team while playing in the individual leagues, while Bisu was able to focus on his matches. I know a lot of people don't like when people start listing winrates and they don't determine how good a player is, but im going to do it anyways. Bisu 2009 83 wins - 32 losses (72.17%) Bisu PvP 2009 29 wins - 7 losses (80.56%) Jaedong 2009 Record: 98 wins - 45 losses (68.53%) Jaedong 2009 ZvZ 41 wins - 13 losses (75.93%) Bisu vs Jaedong 2009 Record: 4 wins - 3 losses (57.14%)
and yes I know im going to get some intense flames from you rabid Jaedong fans.
So the fact that Jaedong ran deep into all individual Leagues and won a third OSL and carried Oz to PL finals is refuted by game statistics ? That's weak.
I do like how you framed you statistics with flame bait.
Here's to a Jaedong-Bisu OSL final
lol no, Jaedong got 3rd place in wcg.. But Bisu got 1st.. and yes i know he carried his team to finals.. But Bisu won the finals..
Winning WCG has a lot more merit than those statistics. Bisu did not win proleague, SKT1 did.
But this sort of bickering can and will continue until they go head to head in a Bo5 or even Bo3 once again. WCG finals has a good chance of that imo.
This was an amazing read however I hold Jaedong with a higher esteem now than I ever held Savior. I'm a huge zerg fan but savior's dominance never gave me chills like watching Jaedong's gameplay. Nothing has struck me quite like those freakishly fast hands his desire to win and the fiery eyes. NaDa Jaedong and Julyzerg are my favorite progamers of all time. Savior and boxer but I really respect them.
I think Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash have shared dominance after Savior's fall. Stork, Luxury, and fantasy have tried to wedge their way in there but none of them have been successful in the long term.
Totally disagree.. NaDa has totally redefined all terran matchups.. Whereas Jaedong used what others gave him..
Jaedong repopularized 2 hatch muta in ZvT
Jaedong has certainly affected each matchup as much as Nada has. Two-hatch Muta in ZvT is his, 5-hatch hydra is his, and JvZ is, well, JvZ. The thing to notice is that Nada's influence on how EVERY race plays Starcraft is being undervalued. Nada's harrassment-based tornado style has changed the game for every race, not just Terran, in a way similar to Boxer's micro innovations or iloveoov's macro style. So while Mobius is understating the effect Jaedong has had on the game, you're also understating how much Nada has done.
Jaedong has upsets left right and center, upsets didnt happen for sAviOr.
Savior lost in 2 msl finals, meanwhile Jaedong has only lost in 1 starleague finals.
To be fair, one of those MSL finals marked the end of Savior's peak, something we haven't seen from Jaedong yet. Career statistics are hard to compare between those two, because they're at very different stages of their careers (as you said, Jaedong still has time to accumulate titles--he also has time to accumulate losses as well).
Jaedong has gone deep in almost every starleague this year, therefore he has been facing harder competition then Bisu who has been getting knocked out of starleagues early.
Eh, deeper into starleagues doesn't necessarily imply tougher competition (Kwanro is a starleague finalist, after all). What we can probably say reasonably is that Jaedong is a much better series player (at least in Bo5s). Bisu wins Bo1s just as well as Jaedong. Does he have more practice time per-game than Jaedong? Yes. But that doesn't make him a worse player. They're probably well-matched for Bo3s as well (given that Bisu just tore his way through an essentially Bo3-only format). I think the real difference is that Jaedong has the nerves and the determination to pull through a Bo5.
For those of you who haven't, go watch Bisu v Iris game 5. There's a moment toward the middle-end that shows Bisu's FPVOD, and it becomes dreadfully apparent why Bisu doesn't win starleagues: his FPVOD at that moment is much slower than his usual, and nothing compared to a Jaedong FPVOD, even from game 5. Bisu, for whatever reason, cannot keep his skill level up through a Bo5 set (at least when the matchup isn't PvP). Jaedong can. Hell, given that Jaedong is the comeback champion, it's arguable that Jaedong gets STRONGER as the match progresses. "Perfect Bisu play" might be as good as "Perfect Jaedong play", but let's face it--Bisu almost never shows that strong play past the 3rd game of a set.
EDIT; An interesting statistic I found when combing the TLPD: Bisu has not beaten a zerg in a Bo5 since he 3-0ed Kwanro in GOM MSL 3. He's only ever won 3 Bo5s against zergs, once against Kwanro, once against GoRush, and of course his (in)famous 3-0 against Savior. For someone who's known for having the best PvZ in the world, he really hasn't played that many Bo5s against them.
Jaedong is currently above Bisu, but I don't think its as much as what that article makes it out to be. It feels like you are knocking Bisu for getting knocked out of the MSL, and giving Jaedong a pass on it. Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is the main difference between the two, and the main reason Jaedong>Bisu right now. Bisu does make small mistakes that end up costing him the game, like vs Iris, or game 5 GOM special match. He does it more than Jaedong. But Jaedong still does it too, if you remember stuff like his canceled spire vs Bisu.
So yeah, Jaedong is better right now, but I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you imply.
and ofc it will turn to another jaedong-bisu debate. For 2 paragraphs in a otherwise awesome article about Jaedong's skills, he is trolling Bisu and his fans. No matter how reasonable the writer is trying to be I dont see how a "B sucks, then A is better" statement can reinforce the point of the whole article....
Federer is the best. He is the complete tennis player, inside the court and out of it. His achievements are unmatched and inspiring. Nadal just isnt that good - his serve is poor, he has no volley. He tends to lose on hard courts and usually in the end of the seasons he is burned out. Nadal gets injured very often.
... I think thats what the article sounds like, Plexa. If you wanted to write about Bisu in your Jaedong focused article, why did you do it near the end anyway, where usually the writer should bring out the biggest gun to make the whole thing actually make sense
This has got to be one of the best writeups ever ( I'm a JD fanboy but this was such a great read ) I don't understand why a Bisu vs JD has to be pulled in here, just enjoy Plexa's epic writing skills, let the year unfold with Bisu vs JD matches and then go argue, not now.
When I left SC for a while due to comp, the Jaedong-Fantasy OSL semifinal had just taken place and now I just returned to this world 2 hours ago. Even thou I feel your mind about these things changes alot Plexa, I'd still have to say I like your articles, your blogs was all I came here to read about a year ago. (Of course the Final Edits and sometimes the news are all very intriguing to read and well written.)
I read everything, ate the whole page up and digested every line. What can I say, I really do feel Jaedong is like the Bruce Lee of progaming, his physique, killer eyes and instinct, and just that attitude of his if you know what I mean. Way ahead of his time and just dominates.
The All-Star 2009 Poll Results was a litle interesting to have a look at to and comparing all the legends wich there isn't really any bias since it's what any old SC fan knows is the intuitive truth of the past and history of the proscene.
On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD
ZvZ is not simply mechanics. Sure micro plays a huge part, and Jaedong has been the best zerg microer for the past few years now. However, there is no way that Jaedong could hold an 80% ZvZ winning percentage without also having amazing decision making. Every little aspect of a close ZvZ matchup is decided on the seemingly basic decisions you make. How many drones do I make? Do I make muta or scourge? Is it worth it to create this sunken?
You have to be so good at reading every individual situation that no one believed someone would ever be as good as Jaedong is at it. He's shown us that you can make perfect reads in ZvZ after all, and it's not just heavily based on luck. He's shown us that you can actually come back in a ZvZ if you play everything perfectly and use every unit to it's utmost potential (see Jaedong vs Oversky on Andromeda here).
Overall, I do see your point, though. His mechanics have opened up new strategies for him more so than he's actually created new strategies himself. You mentioned his use of queens, but it also extends into every aspect of his mutalisk control, in every matchup. Without amazing muta control, he wouldn't be able to make a round of them in the middle of a ZvP, and actually put them to great use sniping templar. Or win ZvT without ever transitioning past mutas. It's these kinds of things that completely throw off his opponents, and further allow his mechanics to dominate games.
When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that.
Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it?
When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that.
Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it?
you can't say that determination is what carries him through. most if not all progamers are pretty determined and practice an insane amount of hours even to get to the stage of being a progamer, and probably they don't let up. saying that Jaedong is special because of his determination seems like a way of sweeping everything under one rug.
sure he's not a genius in terms of build order or trickery, but that just means that he is a genius in terms of game flow in the main lines of the matchup.
i dislike how so many people always say that a person's strength is some sort of psychological thing. though it's true a lot of the cases, it doesn't make them different from many other competitors who are just as strong psychologically.
A lot of people say that Jaedong isn't a great strategist -- that he's primarily got good mechanics, fast hands, and a strong will. I completely disagree: he's a great strategist. I've always been a huge fan of the Boxer and Fantasy players, the brilliant strategists, and when I watch Jaedong I don't see a lack of strategic ability. I just think Jaedong does whatever it takes to win -- if something unconventional will help him win, then he will do it, and he has the skill and the knowledge to pull off great strategic plays.
Jaedong's game is complete and everything he does is meant to lead to victory -- he doesn't try flashy strategies just for the sake of looking cool, and since his game is so incredibly strong overall (mechanics, multitasking, hand speed, micro, macro, tactics, strategy), he doesn't need to cheese or come up with unpredictable strategies in the same way that Boxer did. Boxer's relatively poor macro was one of the big reasons why he needed to rely on unexpected strategies more than Jaedong does. When Jaedong's playing, if he thinks straight-up play will have a higher chance of winning than sneaky strategy, then he'll play a straight-up game and win. Boxer lived and died by his unconventional plays, whereas for Jaedong unpredictability is just one of many available paths to a win.
Jaedong plays to win, and his bag of tricks is fucking enormous. He doesn't usually need to cheese or try something off the beaten path, but he will do it if he senses it's the best way to win a particular game. He is basically top or close to top in every aspect of StarCraft and his strategic ability is no exception: Jaedong has great builds, great timing, great prediction, great gameplans, knows whether to use a small advantage to break an opponent's defense down or to build up his own army and extend his map dominance, he can lose 2 games in a best-of-5 to an opponent and is better than anyone else at adapting/recovering to win the series, and he has successfully executed unconventional strategies (such as defiler+queen). Add all of these up and you have "strategy".
On September 19 2009 16:01 Sentenal wrote: Jaedong is currently above Bisu, but I don't think its as much as what that article makes it out to be. It feels like you are knocking Bisu for getting knocked out of the MSL, and giving Jaedong a pass on it. Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is the main difference between the two, and the main reason Jaedong>Bisu right now. Bisu does make small mistakes that end up costing him the game, like vs Iris, or game 5 GOM special match. He does it more than Jaedong. But Jaedong still does it too, if you remember stuff like his canceled spire vs Bisu.
So yeah, Jaedong is better right now, but I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you imply.
It certainly comes across like that but it would be foolish to suggest Bisu isn't number two in the world at the moment. Yea Calm and Fantasy had better achievements last season but we all know at the core that Bisu is #2.
On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD
A macro zerg? idk, maybe GGPlay in his period..?
There probably will be, and there have been pretty strong implications that that's going to be either calm or effort (Sorry kwanro you just don't have all your bases covered ). I have a feeling it will be calm, since iloveoov was a very very clever player who had a brilliant read on the game (check out i loved victory for my analysis on that) and wasn't particularly noted for his speed - calm is a strategical player with tons of potential so he could certainly step up and take it to the next level.
top3 writeup here ever, it gave me chills throughout the read, maybe has something to do with my rabid JD fanboyism aswell. excellent work Plexa!
can't wait for the next season to start, but somehow im so very afraid that JD is gonna fall, that he doesn't have the drive anymore, let us hope that ain't the case!
On September 19 2009 10:27 Plexa wrote: Jaedong on the other hand hasn't brought anything new to the table since he's been at the top. And the thing is, because of his style, he doesn't need to. There are minor modifications like earlier hydras in TvZ to counter mech, but on the whole, his 2hatch muta style is still as viable as ever. This extends through to Bisu as well and so on.
But you may be downplaying just how much Protoss was walking over Zerg before Jaedong's ascension at EVER. Yes, his vP was terrible before and up to game 1 against Stork. But as Hot_Bid pointed out in his FE, Jaedong learned ZvP right before our eyes in the finals of the most coveted prestigious league. Less than a month later, he proved the viability of 3hatch scourge->5hatch hydra against the world's best PvZer, Bisu, on Blue Storm and began the counter-revolution against forge FE that's reversed nearly all the advantages in strategy and morale that Bisu earned when he slaughtered Savior. At the same time, he was raping Terrans left and right with 2hatch muta and winning the great majority of his ZvZs. Only the sudden rise of Flash prevented him from winning both leagues that spring. It's possible that Jaedong's ZvP might still be abysmal if he had played Bisu in the EVER finals instead of Stork, but that's not what happened. Just as Flash would do in Bacchus, he used Stork to evolve his vP matchup to an S-class level and soon reversed the flow of the metagame (no more carriers vs. T, no more sair/dt vs. Z). Jaedong's strategic achievements (regression to 2hatch vs. T, expansion to 5hatch vs. P, complete paradigm shift vZ) are not as flashy as Savior's (3 hatch muta->lurker/defiler->ultra/ling vs. T, muta/lurk vs. P), but they have also had a great influence on the metagame. The reason 75% of OSL/MSL semifinalists are Zerg this season isn't just maps; it's also Jaedong, who proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the metagame that players with a broader strategic vision and weaker mechanics, like Savior, could not, or at the very least make those problems easier to solve.
Is a pretty good rebuttal to that.
Also Plexa, before you say it, JD was the one who showed that the way to counter sairs was with scourge. (Not the July vs Best game) Just see the JD vs Bisu game on BS.
Aha! Someone reads my posts Okay, if you really want to get technical on the issue then actually 815 came weeks before Jaedong vs Bisu to show Zerg really how to play on Blue Storm and yes, he used scourge to counter corsairs. In addition to that Jaedong immediately dropped using scourge to counter corsairs in Arena and reverted back to the standard hydralisk counter. Similarly, despite how good that game was, that build never really escaped out of Blue Storm and the majority of players still prefered the hydralisk counter. July's use of the build on Andromeda (and the subsequent developments on destination) is what really made that build stick in our minds. So yea, July wasn't first to use it - but he was the one who made it popular. Similarly, 2hat muta is nothing new - but Jaedong certainly made it popular.
My memory of Ever07 isn't as clear as thing after that, but I don't think that really counts. Yes he did learn how to ZvP but I think that stemmed from the fact that he was utterly determine to triumph over Stork. His builds reflected his natural style e.g. the muta/scourge thing on Katrina and I don't think that series really changed anything so far as ZvP strategy goes. It would be wrong to say Jaedong is devoid of any strategical insight, but what I'm arguing is that on balance, it is the weakest of his traits.
I like what EvoChamber is arguing, and I somewhat agree. Zergs this past season have caught up to Jaedong with respect to execution. When Jaedong/Luxury was big there were only 2 (maybe 3 incl. kwanro) players who could execute the 2hatch muta style. No other Zerg could replicate it effectively - and they got slaughtered. Hence why there were only 2 Zergs in the leagues. Now players have practiced and caught up to Jaedong's mechanics. Well, at least closed the gap so now they can execute his strategies.
Here's where Savior and Jaedong differ. Once Savior was figured out (by Bisu/Nada/FBH kinda) people had little difficulty defeating him. Since Savior's focus was on strategy, he needed to take another look at the state of Zerg and find a new winning combination (and then abuse that until it was solved). So far he has not done that. Well, actually, partly that's due to Savior losing his game sense and partly because he was figured out, but nevertheless the strategy thing is in there.
Jaedong, on the other hand, is riding his mechanics to stay on top. He doesn't need to reinvent himself like Savior (and Boxer) had to to stay on top; he just needs to practice to keep his skills sharp. Hence why he's able to stay on top and will be able to stay on top for a lot longer. He's got one formula which works, and he just executes it perfectly every time.
Edit: Also, his zvp developments even lead for people like ret to understand and dominate the matchup now.
On July 29 2009 22:43 ret wrote: Right now, I feel like my ZvP is easily my best matchup. And I owe it all to the Bisu vs Jaedong game on destination. I feel like there is nothing protoss can do that I can't counter.
I thank you:
LEE JAE DONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not convinced Jaedong is leading any revolution on the ZvP front. Yes he's refining the builds and whatnot, but that's not revolutionary. He's not ahead of the curve, he's right on the curve. Zero is an example of a player who is ahead of the Curve - his use of Queens on Heartbreak for instance. Hyun, as terrible as he is, also is ahead of the curve but is so much weaker in every other area lolol. Again, its the Jaedong formula in use
I love your write up! But I have to say that fore me JD is one of the most intelligent players around which is most visible in his ZvZ where he sneaks zerglings and really seem to read the opponents mind with superior BOs. I think you tend to fall in the usual trap that consists of thinking that one has to be one of two things like: artistically or mathematically skilled, good at micro or macro, intelligent or beautiful etc.. I think that is a stereotypical way of thinking, though I agree that JDs builds tend to be more macro heavy and "straight up" than those of - say - Fantasy or Boxer. One uf the best write ups I have seen on TL though, great work!
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc
He may be here to stay, but I think he will never reach that status of Boxer or Savior in terms of popularity. Unfortunately he is not very innovative. Quite obviously, on the other hand, his mechanics are second to none. But I think Starcraft lives - at least for me - from innovative, cheese, unexpected play, rather than repetitive perfect execution.
Bisu is like Che Guevara or hannibal, he knows how to get a win, but not how to use it (as in, he knows how to reach the top, but has trouble maintaining it)
Nice article. I'm a big Jaedong fan and even in my eyes JD and MJY are not on the same holyness level. Jaedong is a friggin monster but MJY is the Grandfather of all zergs. In zerg terms, Jaedong is a very efficient cerebrate (perhaps the most efficient cerebrate there is) but Savior is the Overmind or the Queen of Blades.
BTW, I loved this picture caption: "Jaedong's hands are an essential part of his play style". errr... Thank god he has hands, I guess. My hands are an essential part of my play style as well since I would never be able to play with my feet.
Thanks for the write up Plexa, you rule (altough not as much as the Dong).
On September 19 2009 21:30 Elroi wrote: I love your write up! But I have to say that fore me JD is one of the most intelligent players around which is most visible in his ZvZ where he sneaks zerglings and really seem to read the opponents mind with superior BOs. I think you tend to fall in the usual trap that consists of thinking that one has to be one of two things like: artistically or mathematically skilled, good at micro or macro, intelligent or beautiful etc.. I think that is a stereotypical way of thinking, though I agree that JDs builds tend to be more macro heavy and "straight up" than those of - say - Fantasy or Boxer. One uf the best write ups I have seen on TL though, great work!
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc
You're not the only person to talk about ZvZ so I'll try to make a collective justification of my views. Up until the Calm semifinal Jaedong played every ZvZ with the mindset that whomever had the best 'physical' won. Indeed, I can find you interviews which justify this statement (and will do so at your request). Calm raped Jaedong with clever play - and after that Jaedong began to use hidden lings and whatnot in ZvZ and started uses more strategy in his play. So yea, in ZvZ, atleast recently, he has been really creative and strategic but still he's just copying what calm did to him so I don't know what to make of that exactly.
On September 19 2009 22:22 timmeh wrote: He may be here to stay, but I think he will never reach that status of Boxer or Savior in terms of popularity. Unfortunately he is not very innovative. Quite obviously, on the other hand, his mechanics are second to none. But I think Starcraft lives - at least for me - from innovative, cheese, unexpected play, rather than repetitive perfect execution.
Jaedong is definitely not repetitive. He cheeses frequently and uses the full arsenal of zerg strategies in all matchups. Z just doesn't have as many fancy options as T and P in the cheese department.
On September 19 2009 21:30 Elroi wrote: I love your write up! But I have to say that fore me JD is one of the most intelligent players around which is most visible in his ZvZ where he sneaks zerglings and really seem to read the opponents mind with superior BOs. I think you tend to fall in the usual trap that consists of thinking that one has to be one of two things like: artistically or mathematically skilled, good at micro or macro, intelligent or beautiful etc.. I think that is a stereotypical way of thinking, though I agree that JDs builds tend to be more macro heavy and "straight up" than those of - say - Fantasy or Boxer. One uf the best write ups I have seen on TL though, great work!
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc
You're not the only person to talk about ZvZ so I'll try to make a collective justification of my views. Up until the Calm semifinal Jaedong played every ZvZ with the mindset that whomever had the best 'physical' won. Indeed, I can find you interviews which justify this statement (and will do so at your request). Calm raped Jaedong with clever play - and after that Jaedong began to use hidden lings and whatnot in ZvZ and started uses more strategy in his play. So yea, in ZvZ, atleast recently, he has been really creative and strategic but still he's just copying what calm did to him so I don't know what to make of that exactly.
I have to disagree. Jaedong uses hidden lings in ZvZ since forever. Don't have the time to look for all those game, but maybe someone else does or has a better memory than me.
I completely agree, that mechanics are the strongest part of his play and the main reason he is the best right now. But I won't underestimate his potential when it comes to strategies. He may not be Boxer-esque, and sometimes he does not adapt too well, but he surely has his moments.
Trying to think of some examples, the trap he set for Canata in Game5 of the MSL-quarterfinals was beautiful, there is not a doubt in my mind that it wasn't planned. I also liked his hydra/lurk on RH3 against Flash in the WL-Playoffs. I used to watch nearly every pro game during that time and there was nearly no Hydra/lurk games against terran back then. I also believe that no one expected that he would use Hydra/lurk against Fantasy on Outsider in the semis. He found a counter to Fantasys tvz style on Outsider (which is pretty damn strong) within a week, without a Julyzerg and Savior within his coaching staff. Also the game against Kal on HR in the MSL Ro16 comes to mind. Although I don't remember all the details, I believe he brilliantly faked a 3hatch Hydra all-in and transitioned into heavy macro mode, and Kal could not do anything after warping in too many cannons.
Just some examples from the top of my head. I really believe that you underestimate his strategic qualities, but I agree, they are overshadowed by his unbelievable mechanics.
On September 19 2009 19:30 Polyphasic wrote: i dislike how so many people always say that a person's strength is some sort of psychological thing. though it's true a lot of the cases, it doesn't make them different from many other competitors who are just as strong psychologically.
Except in this case it's actually true. His game 1 play is not that much better than Flash or Bisu (arguably, they make better showings in small sets and single matches, given their statistics). Jaedong has the endurance to keep going through a match. There's a reason that he's the comeback champion: you compare the FPVODs of his opponents and competitors through a set, and they make more mistakes in game 3-5 (Fantasy and Bisu epitomize this), when he doesn't. Even opponents like Fantasy who dominate him 1-set games like PL finals just don't have the mental fortitude he does. Like it or not, Jaedong's star factor is something that comes into play late in sets, because that star factor just doesn't show up in 1-set venues.
In part, I think this might be why people refuse to believe Jaedong is as good as he is--when they watch a Jaedong Bo5, they don't see him making some epic play, but they see his opponent making some epic fail ("it's called hold position, bro", fantasy's retarded wall-in in RotK, or Flash 14cc-ing into a 9pool for the 23758291857th time). But frankly, that's part of Jaedong's greatness--that he makes so few mistakes, and his opponents can't keep up. The secret to Jaedong is not innovation, like Boxer or Savior, but pure, simple, perfection.
On September 19 2009 21:25 Plexa wrote: I'm not convinced Jaedong is leading any revolution on the ZvP front. Yes he's refining the builds and whatnot, but that's not revolutionary. He's not ahead of the curve, he's right on the curve. Zero is an example of a player who is ahead of the Curve - his use of Queens on Heartbreak for instance. Hyun, as terrible as he is, also is ahead of the curve but is so much weaker in every other area lolol. Again, its the Jaedong formula in use
Jaedong was the one who showed everybody queens are a viable unit making it possible for people like Zero to incorporate it into their play. Although I would still agree that Zero is more of an innovator than Jaedong.
that's the hick with teamliquid, it's always about the most famous the most unfamous, the most second, the most loved, the most hated blablablablabla, usually i love your articles but this one is boring, it's like hearing Artosis always talking about "the most...."
Amazing write-up yo Jaedong? bisu? i think Bisu is better than Jaedong, Jaedong havent invented anything he just play straigh up, and to keep in count he is Zerg user Zerg is 1a2a3a4a EZZ race IMO
On September 19 2009 21:30 Elroi wrote: I love your write up! But I have to say that fore me JD is one of the most intelligent players around which is most visible in his ZvZ where he sneaks zerglings and really seem to read the opponents mind with superior BOs. I think you tend to fall in the usual trap that consists of thinking that one has to be one of two things like: artistically or mathematically skilled, good at micro or macro, intelligent or beautiful etc.. I think that is a stereotypical way of thinking, though I agree that JDs builds tend to be more macro heavy and "straight up" than those of - say - Fantasy or Boxer. One uf the best write ups I have seen on TL though, great work!
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc
You're not the only person to talk about ZvZ so I'll try to make a collective justification of my views. Up until the Calm semifinal Jaedong played every ZvZ with the mindset that whomever had the best 'physical' won. Indeed, I can find you interviews which justify this statement (and will do so at your request). Calm raped Jaedong with clever play - and after that Jaedong began to use hidden lings and whatnot in ZvZ and started uses more strategy in his play. So yea, in ZvZ, atleast recently, he has been really creative and strategic but still he's just copying what calm did to him so I don't know what to make of that exactly.
I have to disagree. Jaedong uses hidden lings in ZvZ since forever. Don't have the time to look for all those game, but maybe someone else does or has a better memory than me.
I completely agree, that mechanics are the strongest part of his play and the main reason he is the best right now. But I won't underestimate his potential when it comes to strategies. He may not be Boxeresque, and sometimes he does not adapt too well, but he surely has his moments.
Trying to think of some examples, the trap he set for Canata in Game5 of the MSL-quarterfinals was beautiful, there is not a doubt in my mind that it wasn't planned. I also liked his hydra/lurk on RH3 against Flash in the WL-Playoffs. I used to watch nearly every pro game during that time and there was nearly no Hydra/lurk games against terran bach then. I also believe that no one expected that he would use Hydra/lurk against Fantasy on Outsider in the semis. He found a counter to Fantasys tvz style on Outsider (which is pretty damn strong) within a week, without a Julyzerg and Savior within his coaching staff. Also the game against Kal on HR in the MSL Ro16 comes to mind. Although I don't remember all the details, I believe he brilliantly faked a 3hatch Hydra all-in and transitioned into heavy macro mode, and Kal could not do anything after warping too many cannons.
Just some examples from the top of my head. I really believe that you underestimate his strategic qualities, but I agree, they are overshadowed by his unbelievable mechanics.
I would like to add the super fast hidden min-only expo vs FBH on destination, that was just sexy
On September 20 2009 02:47 LuisMl8 wrote: Amazing write-up yo Jaedong? bisu? i think Bisu is better than Jaedong, Jaedong havent invented anything he just play straigh up, and to keep in count he is Zerg user Zerg is 1a2a3a4a EZZ race IMO
That was some quality writing with very astute observations. Here are my thoughts on some of the points raised.
Is Jaedong is a one note player with perfect mechanics?
Jaedong does have truly amazing mechanics. This cannot be stressed enough. It allows him to have timing windows that a few can abuse, over commit to an attack with nothing but his micromanagement to rely on or power up with minimal defenses. In other words, his mechanics paves way to unconventional play quite frequently.
Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly.
It might be that people tend to remember his trademark “WTF just happened there” victories more than his strategic triumphs. His mutalisk/hydralisk joint attack against Flash on Destination after a crippling vulture raid, his probe snipe against Bisu to sneak zerglings through on what was a sure build order loss on Andromeda, his overlord bait into zergling lurker break against Canata on Outsider and his zergling surround on the bunker after a failed 4 pool against Fantasy are all examples of how Jaedong can pull a victory out of nothing. It’s one of the reasons why Jaedong is above the rest, because a simple lapse of misjudgment by the opponent is enough to allow a killer blow from Jaedong.
Jaedong’s games are a bit of everything: a seemingly normal game that ends abruptly due to Jaedong’s killer instincts, standard games that show off Jaedong’s amazing late game mechanics, clever trickeries such early mineral-only expansions and seemingly ridiculous strategies that only Jaedong can pull off. Savior’s strategic forte allowed him to look superior against all opponents because all the moves made by his opponents were within his expectations. Jaedong’s insight isn’t quite there yet. His greatest attribute is his mechanics of course, and that forces him to play a wide variety of styles (even more so than Savior) because the disparity in mechanical skill truly kicks in when his opponent is caught off guard. What he lacks in strategic depth, he makes up for with in game intuition and constant switching of styles to keep his opponents unable to react properly to his troop movement or game plan.
Does Jaedong falter when it comes Proleague matches? I have been arguing for the longest time the importance of Proleague matches on TL it seems. The preparation put into Proleague matches, has the weight of an entire team going behind it. It’s where all the money is. I don’t rate players like Kwanro because of his relative position the team in comparison to Effort despite the fact that he is an MSL finalist. People who fail to make any major impact in the Proleague should be judged accordingly just like the Proleague aces who fail miserably in individual leagues. However, we should be extremely careful when we start using the Proleague as an apparatus for a player’s greatness.
There are so many factors involved when Proleague matches are involved, that the might of a single player - no matter how awesome – plays a lesser role in comparison with the individual leagues. Boxer himself said in the post-match interview after the Grand Finals of the Proleague that they had practiced the ACE match build against multiple zerg players playing on team melee mode to check the potency of the build against a player of Jaedong’s caliber (he added that the effect of team melee mode is so great that Bisu, the best player on his team, cannot win against multiple players on team melee). When that many minds are working against you in collaboration, there are bound to be moments of weakness no matter how thoroughly prepared you are.
After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him.
Even Flash barely scraped over the 50% winning rate (5 wins 4 losses) in his ACE matches because every team had been gunning for him in matches against KTF, Jaedong actually had a respectable record of 9 wins and 4 losses in his ACE matches despite the opposing team having prior knowledge of the fact that Jaedong had to split his practice hours for a ACE match against all match-ups as well as his entry game. Bisu never had this kind of pressure. In this day and age, with every coach analyzing the plays of known players, talented players in their own right selectively practicing for the match against Jaedong knowing his defeat will cripple his team and the fatigue that comes with such huge responsibility over such a long period would makes things impossible for ANYONE to pull out a lone man effort to claim the Proleague title, yet Hwaseung Oz almost ACE’d their way to the top with only Jaedong to rely on. If this doesn’t get someone’s respect, I don’t know what else Jaedong can do to win it.
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly.
No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR.
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him.
No one is holding it against him. In fact, it's probably even greater evidence of his resilience. But skill is not a measure of "what he could be". We can't make judgements on Jaedong's ability based on what things would be like if he had a easier practice schedule--because we can't know those things.We base on what is--how he played in the games he's played. Will we make note of his superhuman schedule? Yes. But that won't change losses into wins.
I think that the technical aspect of Z does translate into him being less "strategical" but I think all of us have to agree that he is very tactical in his play, his timing concerning unit movement, positioning, target selecting is nearly perfect. I haven't seen many games where he does a crazy build order (he is Z, how many creative BO's does Z have compared to T/P?) but his in-game decision making concerning when, what, and how to attack/defend are nearly flawless in all match ups.
Rage- Plexa sing the rage of Jaedong, sucessor to sAviOr, murderous, doomed, that cost the protoss countless ZvP's; hurling out of starleagues so many hyped progamers
On September 20 2009 11:48 butchji wrote: You depreciate Flash too early imo. He is two years younger than JaeDong, I believe, and already has the same winning ratio! <3
And Sea has the same winning ratio as Stork although he's 2 years younger! ...
Thanks for the effort, but there is one thing that I find irritating about the article, and this goes for Zerg in general, not just Jaedong:
Zerg does not have as much room to innovate as the other races. The slight modifications you see Jaedong make are about as creative as you can get with zerg while still playing an optimal game designed to win. It's hard to make a sweeping paradigm changing build when Zerg is so limited in that respect anyway and seemingly the major changes have already happened (muta stacking, 3 hatch, 2 hatch). Unlike Terran and Protoss in many of their matchups, Zerg does not have the luxury of being able to hide their builds long enough to catch the opponents off guard too much, especially if the opponent is good at keeping the probe/scv alive. If the Zerg does go for a surprise/creative attack, it is usually an all-in, unlike with Terran and Protoss to some degree. Zerg cannot proxy with the exception of proxy hatches and that is hardly a viable build in most cases (and yes I am aware of the Medusa strategy but that is a rare instance). As for Zero's queens, he made good use of it against Bisu but it's not like Zergs weren't for a long time trying to figure out something to do with that seemingly useless unit. And Jaedong did employ it effectively against Fantasy on Shin Chupung. While the Queen can be an effective surprise unit, I don't think it's equivalent to something like Fantasy's mech builds which have longer staying power. It's not a surprise that you still rarely see Queens ever used: it's rarely viable once the opponent is aware of its possibility, and you hardly see it anymore (Zero's queen use on Collosseum against Skyhigh was awesome but he still lost the game, that may be why you saw it at a tournament like Blizzcon and not in PL or an OSL). The point is, it seems that your criticism of Jaedong as a player lacking strategically is not really fair, given the nature of Zerg. If you criticize Jaedong for that, then you're really just criticizing Zerg in general. And if you're simply saying his strategical play is the most lacking compared to the rest of his abilities, it's because Jaedong has maximized the aspects of his race that can be enhanced the most (mechanics, aggression, intuition, timing). I'd say he does as much as he can with the race strategically, and as much or more than any other Zerg player with the exception of Zero. Also, your definition of a 'strategical player' seems to be someone who comes up with something completely new which others must adapt to, after which the 'strategical player' must reinvent himself to stay on top. If that is the case, then can you really criticize zerg players in general and Jaedong more specifically for not coming up with these new builds and strategies, given the race's nature as mentioned above?
As for how Zerg responds to being attacked by various creative and unorthodox builds, I'd say Jaedong responds as well or better than any Zerg out there to unconventional builds, and he has definitely improved this aspect since he first rose to prominence. When Fantasy first introduced his mech build against GGplay he left him devastated. I'm not saying if Jaedong had been the first to see the build, he would've fared any better. My point is I don't really think Zerg can do too much when a Terran can come up with something completely new and unorthodox except learn from it. It's how the race is designed. Zerg must take calculated risks regarding economy because it is so fragile and the drone/units balance has to be perfect. When unable to scout the opposing player, Zerg must take into account all known builds and choose the optimal build. If a completely new strategy takes advantage of what is the conventionally known zerg optimal build, Zerg is pretty helpless. This is also why I believe Zerg tend to do better in series than individual games, because it gives Zerg time to adapt.
I am fully aware that your post was more to emphasize Jaedong's staying power due to his mechanics and will to win/mental toughness, which I agree with, I still find criticizing Zerg in general for not being as strategically creative as the other races unfair. And I'd say Jaedong maximizes his strategical play, too, but it's more difficult to see due to Zerg's strategical subtlety. As I mentioned, Zerg seem to do better in series games than individual games, and if you agree with me that this is a function of zerg's being able to adapt to new strategies, then would not Jaedong be a shining example of that given his history of comeback wins? You can just as easily interpret his comebacks as demonstrating his ability to adapt during a series (Batoo OSL final) rather than a result of his "will to win", which I'd say is a little more subjective and less convincing in this light. I do agree very much with your comparison of Jaedong with Nada, though. And once again, thanks for the effort.
edit: I hadn't read "Letmelose"s post before posting, and he touches on a few things I wrote about. So, e,f,b.
No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR.
I'd agree with this. However, I think Plexa is making a distinction between a Mechanical and Strategical player, and based on what I wrote about Zerg in the previous post, I don't think that is a fair distinction to make for Zerg players in general, especially if, like myself, you believe players like Jaedong actually do a whole lot strategically but on a subtle level.
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly.
No one is saying that Jaedong is entirely a mechanical player. Jaedong's strategic arsenal is on par with his S-class compatriots, Bisu and Flash. The thing is, this is not Jaedong's star factor. Jaedong is not that cut ABOVE because of his strategies, and that's the key point to make. Boxer is an example of a player who's greatness was driven by strategic ingenuity, Jaedong is not like that. Jaedong's star factor is his consistency, his determination, and his ability to steam through Bo5s without any hint of stress. Do his other abilities (mechanics, game-sense, etc.) contribute to him being an S-class player? Yes. But they aren't what make him a STAR.
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him.
No one is holding it against him. In fact, it's probably even greater evidence of his resilience. But skill is not a measure of "what he could be". We can't make judgements on Jaedong's ability based on what things would be like if he had a easier practice schedule--because we can't know those things.We base on what is--how he played in the games he's played. Will we make note of his superhuman schedule? Yes. But that won't change losses into wins.
Jaedong’s unwavering mentality has often been picked out as his best attributes by many people in the industry; I simply got the feeling that some people here regarded Jaedong as a one trick pony with mechanic perfection. Jaedong really does have exceptional belief in himself, and often commented in his interviews that he does try to “overwhelm” the opposing player through intimidation; something which I have not seen being done in reverse too often. I just wanted to point out that Jaedong has been quite mercurial with his build orders - and in an age where every coach is analyzing his play to the second to counter it – Jaedong never would have survived purely with his mechanics and mentality had he not been strategically versatile.
In fact, some people are. If I am guilty of defending Jaedong for his “excessive” defeats in the Proleague with “what-could-have-been”, several people are doing the very same for Flash and Bisu. The fact of the matter is, Jaedong has won more BO1 matches than any other gamer this year, in a wider variety of maps, with heavier schedule demands and probably with more responsibility on his shoulders. It certainly does not change his defeats into victories. Just like Flash and Bisu can’t claim to have been better at BO1 matches because they have played less games with superior winning percentages. That in itself is an assumption that Flash and Bisu would have retained their winning percentages if they had the same number of games Jaedong had. Otherwise, we should have been celebrating Leta as the greatest BO1 player of recent days in 2008. Flash actually won more, and was regarded as the better of the two for that. I’m ready to settle for the same with Jaedong.
On September 20 2009 02:47 LuisMl8 wrote: Amazing write-up yo Jaedong? bisu? i think Bisu is better than Jaedong, Jaedong havent invented anything he just play straigh up, and to keep in count he is Zerg user Zerg is 1a2a3a4a EZZ race IMO
On September 20 2009 09:02 n.DieJokes wrote: Rage- Plexa sing the rage of Jaedong, sucessor to sAviOr, murderous, doomed, that cost the protoss countless ZvP's; hurling out of starleagues so many hyped progamers
Pretty sure the Iliad reference wins the thread.
EDIT: Well, whatever of the thread was left to win after Plexa's article, that is.
On September 20 2009 04:58 Letmelose wrote: That was some quality writing with very astute observations. Here are my thoughts on some of the points raised.
Is Jaedong is a one note player with perfect mechanics?
Jaedong does have truly amazing mechanics. This cannot be stressed enough. It allows him to have timing windows that a few can abuse, over commit to an attack with nothing but his micromanagement to rely on or power up with minimal defenses. In other words, his mechanics paves way to unconventional play quite frequently.
Before anyone refutes that, I’d like to mention that you don’t necessary have to change the paradigm of the game to be strategically versatile. The strategies Jaedong plays may not be ground breaking builds that improve the Zerg race as a whole, but I’d argue that Jaedong is more mercurial than the average gamer. One only needs to look at this season’s games to realize Jaedong actually has a wide repertoire of strategies. No gamer would have survived such a demanding schedule by practicing one style of play to perfection. Some people are actually over-estimating Jaedong if they believe that his mechanics are THAT godly.
It might be that people tend to remember his trademark “WTF just happened there” victories more than his strategic triumphs. His mutalisk/hydralisk joint attack against Flash on Destination after a crippling vulture raid, his probe snipe against Bisu to sneak zerglings through on what was a sure build order loss on Andromeda, his overlord bait into zergling lurker break against Canata on Outsider and his zergling surround on the bunker after a failed 4 pool against Fantasy are all examples of how Jaedong can pull a victory out of nothing. It’s one of the reasons why Jaedong is above the rest, because a simple lapse of misjudgment by the opponent is enough to allow a killer blow from Jaedong.
Jaedong’s games are a bit of everything: a seemingly normal game that ends abruptly due to Jaedong’s killer instincts, standard games that show off Jaedong’s amazing late game mechanics, clever trickeries such early mineral-only expansions and seemingly ridiculous strategies that only Jaedong can pull off. Savior’s strategic forte allowed him to look superior against all opponents because all the moves made by his opponents were within his expectations. Jaedong’s insight isn’t quite there yet. His greatest attribute is his mechanics of course, and that forces him to play a wide variety of styles (even more so than Savior) because the disparity in mechanical skill truly kicks in when his opponent is caught off guard. What he lacks in strategic depth, he makes up for with in game intuition and constant switching of styles to keep his opponents unable to react properly to his troop movement or game plan.
Very very good points. However I think the true measure of a players strategic caliber is his ability to react to what his opponent is doing. Anyone can sit down at a computer and work out a strategy to use in a game; thats all premeditated. However, when are you are faced with a out-of-left-field strategy your true strategic qualities begin to shine (or fail to shine). This, in part, addresses the concerns another poster had earlier on saying Zerg could not be a strategic race.
The thing about Jaedong is that while he can always devise a new strategy to abuse his sickening mechanics (e.g. vs fantasy on chupung) but he doesn't always respond to his opponents in the best way. Before I get on to elaborating about that, I hope you agree that while Jaedong does use a variety of styles, they all basically revolve around him taking control of the game and using his mechanics to dissect his opponent with surgical like precision. You noted the 4pool again Fantasy - this is a great example of Jaedong employing his trademark style in my opinion.
Anyway, getting back to Jaedong not responding the best, when Jaedong is forced to respond to his opponent he often makes mistakes. For instance, that long drawn out game against Free on Athena is a good example of this. Fantasy defeating him on Outisder is another example (and heartbreak). I think its important here to make the distinction between adapting in game and adapting across a series. I would argue that Jaedong doesn't 'adapt' to his opponent over the course of a Bo5 - he just never lets his intensity level drop for a second. I think someone else also mentioned this, and that person did a really good job explaining it so I won't bother to try and emulate that .
I think that Jaedong doesn't really adapt, he just does what he's practiced over and over again. However when it comes to working outside the realms of the practice room he begins to falter. That's what I mean by being 'weak' strategically.
Does Jaedong falter when it comes Proleague matches? I have been arguing for the longest time the importance of Proleague matches on TL it seems. The preparation put into Proleague matches, has the weight of an entire team going behind it. It’s where all the money is. I don’t rate players like Kwanro because of his relative position the team in comparison to Effort despite the fact that he is an MSL finalist. People who fail to make any major impact in the Proleague should be judged accordingly just like the Proleague aces who fail miserably in individual leagues. However, we should be extremely careful when we start using the Proleague as an apparatus for a player’s greatness.
There are so many factors involved when Proleague matches are involved, that the might of a single player - no matter how awesome – plays a lesser role in comparison with the individual leagues. Boxer himself said in the post-match interview after the Grand Finals of the Proleague that they had practiced the ACE match build against multiple zerg players playing on team melee mode to check the potency of the build against a player of Jaedong’s caliber (he added that the effect of team melee mode is so great that Bisu, the best player on his team, cannot win against multiple players on team melee). When that many minds are working against you in collaboration, there are bound to be moments of weakness no matter how thoroughly prepared you are.
After all, Jaedong was forced to play a significantly higher number of ACE matches than Bisu and Flash (due to the nature of his team), played in a more diverse map pool than the other two (this plays a huge role, I’d like to see how his statistics would change if he had focused on a select few maps he favoured instead of practicing for all of them) not to mention the fact that he had a busier schedule due to making it to the latter stages of the individual league. I actually was amazed at how resilient Jaedong was this season; almost single handedly defeating multiple teams in what seemed like a one man effort. I don’t see how anyone can hold this against him.
Even Flash barely scraped over the 50% winning rate (5 wins 4 losses) in his ACE matches because every team had been gunning for him in matches against KTF, Jaedong actually had a respectable record of 9 wins and 4 losses in his ACE matches despite the opposing team having prior knowledge of the fact that Jaedong had to split his practice hours for a ACE match against all match-ups as well as his entry game. Bisu never had this kind of pressure. In this day and age, with every coach analyzing the plays of known players, talented players in their own right selectively practicing for the match against Jaedong knowing his defeat will cripple his team and the fatigue that comes with such huge responsibility over such a long period would makes things impossible for ANYONE to pull out a lone man effort to claim the Proleague title, yet Hwaseung Oz almost ACE’d their way to the top with only Jaedong to rely on. If this doesn’t get someone’s respect, I don’t know what else Jaedong can do to win it.
I dont disagree with anything you've written here, but I'd like to add that players who play a very similar style from game to game tend to do better in Proleague than others. For instance, since Jaedong's greatest strength is his mechanics he can afford to put in less practice 'figuring out' his opponent per game in proleague and just concentrate on doing what jaedong does best. This means he can cope with the heavier workload where others would fail.
On September 20 2009 11:48 butchji wrote: You depreciate Flash too early imo. He is two years younger than JaeDong, I believe, and already has the same winning ratio! <3
And Sea has the same winning ratio as Stork although he's 2 years younger! ...
So you want to say Sea is much worse than Stork in reality? x)
Just curious: why is the TL ELO calculation not used to compare players (as here for bisu v. jd)? Of course it's not the whole truth but it seems an important bit of information to me...
Calm will probably take over the position as the best Zerg if something happens to Jaedong. Probably Effort will be the main rival to fight with him for the position though.
On September 21 2009 00:05 Thojorin wrote: Just curious: why is the TL ELO calculation not used to compare players (as here for bisu v. jd)? Of course it's not the whole truth but it seems an important bit of information to me...
objective methods of comparison are not objective in this case. Bisu has the better winning percentage of the two in the last year by a good 5% , his average ELO could be higher but Jaedong won the games that mattered the most and Bisu didnt. If you look at it as pure statistic JD lost every 3rd game in the last year, but in the end the badges are all that matter. ELO rankings and winning percentages are for fanboys
And yes, I clearly stand behind the statement that Bisu is more skillful and better player. The main reason for Jaedong's achievements are beyond the game itself - determination, mental stability, fighting spirit. All these qualities make him not only a remarkable starcraft player, but I'm sure will help him with whatever he tries to do with his life. Bisu is a cocky primadonna rock star, who thinks of himself as a down scaled version of God. But I love him for that
I don't agree with the statement that Jaedong isn't a strategical genius. Just because he doesn't use high risk/high reward tactics doesn't mean his strategical grasp on the game isn't the best in the world. I feel Jaedong makes extremely smart strategical decisions that maximize the reward to risk ratio. Obviously his mechanics are incredible, and that's what allows his to play more safely and gradually build an advantage as the game progresses. This advantage comes from smart decisions though, whereas mechanics only help in the execution.
Disipline no offense but your reasons for Bisu being "better" than Jaedong are nonsensical.
I think Bisu is the second best in the world and one of my top 3 favourite gamers but he tends to win a lot of games that are served to him on a silver platter, and lose games versus tough(er) opponents. Plus hes got a sick team backing him.
Sorry I REALLY don't want to start/continue a Bisu vs. Jaedong debate.
On September 21 2009 03:52 ShaperofDreams wrote: I think Bisu is the second best in the world and one of my top 3 favourite gamers but he tends to win a lot of games that are served to him on a silver platter, and lose games versus tough(er) opponents. Plus hes got a sick team backing him.
On the contrary, he wins games against tough opponents, and drops games to second-class players arguably out of his own cockiness.
Look at Bisu's set/single match losses from 2009 (discounting Winners League because that's a bad format for this kind of analysis:
2-3 Iris in Avalon MSL Zero, go.go in Bacchus OSL Group Stage Jangbi in Avalon MSL Group Stage PL Losses to Yellow, Hwasin, Stork, Violet, Great. 0-3 Fantasy in Batoo OSL 2-3 Jaedong in GOM Special Match Zero, Savior in Lost Saga MSL Group Stage 0-2 by.hero in Batoo OSL
How many of those are games against opponents Bisu should consider difficult? The only ones of note are the 5sets against Iris and Jaedong (both characterized by uncharacteristically bad play in game 5-which I discussed previously in this thread), and a lone PL match vs Stork. The games Bisu loses are NOT against tough opponents, but the ones "served to him on a silver platter".
On September 21 2009 05:50 ShaperofDreams wrote: Those are all quite good players...
Maybe not Savior, and Stork isn't doing really well right now but still he is capable of great play.
Violet is rising in pro league, so yeah I'd consider most of those guys quite good.
They're the standard of A-Class and B-class progamers Bisu faces. If NC.Yellow or Zero aren't "silver platter" games for Bisu, then what are? What players did you have in mind when you made the statement I quoted? It's not like he regularly faces players like Killer or Jjonga in matches that matter.
Also my original post not only talks about player quality but team support. In Proleague non ace games Bisu is pretty comfy because even if he loses his team still stands a damn good chance.
Again I don't want to derail this thread if you really want to get into a Jaedong vs. Bisu argument then PM me about it so I can ignore
I think Bisu don't really try to play at his absolute best against statistically worse players while Jaedong play at the top of his game all the time so consistency is the main reason here. Jaedong have passion to win while Bisu is just arrogant to throw away games. If we compare both of them, they are about equal. It would be REALLY fun to see them in an OSL/MSL finals though. Then we can decide who is better.
Hey Jaedong fans, Baezzi has a play list commemorating The Dong's first 100 pro league victories and it's under the jon747 account. TL-Baezzi beef aside I highly recommend checking it out, it's fun to see Jaedong in '07 as a rising zerg doing little ceremonies after every win. I have a new respect for his crazy aggressive style after watching some of his '07 games.
edit: Jaedong vs.Boxer's bunker rush into 3starport wraith is HIGHLY entertaining.
Nice article However there are some "flamebaits" to Bisu fans i think you put by purpose to temper it. JD is indeed the best at the moment, one of my favorite players, however, different from the autor, i think stating he is far ahead is exageration for the golden mouse.
Hes margin of superiority over Bisu is so little that i dont dare to call anything but an "even" rivalry. He has more anchievments but that just it. Its not a measure of actual skill.
Statistics mean anything etc... But they have a value and its undeniable If you take recent games, even games from 1 year ago to today, Bisu´s ahead in win %, and saying its because Bisu fought easy oponents is just ridiculous.
The person saying Bisu has more wins because he played less and only easy players is nothing but fail. This same argument can be used to say that, because JD played more, he played more easy opponents than Bisu (in number) and had the opportunity to got more win %.
Also you saying Fantasy won the Proleague for SKT is complicated. Besides being a team, Bisu was more important to SKT 10 times than Fantasy. Hes much more responsible for the sucess (and if he played JD i think he could win also). Hes just not got the most wins prize over JD because hes not used so much as him. (and even was only 1 win away, despite playing much less than JD)
Bisu=Proleague and WCG, and not only WCG. JD=OSL
The tone of the article was like: "Bisu is nice but.....has more flaws, win less, do not won a decent title this year, etc... so hes much worst" Where it could be also like that: "Bisu has his flaws, but........showed a better win rate, destroyed Proleague more than JD, won WCG etc.....so hes just a little behind" Thats would make a huge difference.
Sometime ago there was even an article saying the Proleague was becoming so much prestigious as the OSL. How things change because a golden mouse. Thats the problem in it. The last prize is the more important (except WCG it seems, well Bisu won, no wonder)
Finally, the Bonjwa argument in the end is controversial. Lets see: - First people said that to be Bonjwa the player must win 3 OSLs-MSLs (mixed) in sequence - Than, it was said that in truth, it has more to " dominance". A scary overall win rate - After, it was said that to be bonjwa, the player must be considered it by unanimity of community - Now, it is said that the future will say who is Bonjwa
To be honest, i think this semester will say if JD is bonjwa or not. Lets see how he will do.
On September 21 2009 09:17 danieldrsa wrote: Statistics mean anything etc... But they have a value and its undeniable If you take recent games, even games from 1 year ago to today, Bisu´s ahead in win %, and saying its because Bisu fought easy oponents is just ridiculous.
The person saying Bisu has more wins because he played less and only easy players is nothing but fail. This same argument can be used to say that, because JD played more, he played more easy opponents than Bisu (in number) and had the opportunity to got more win %.
Well I read only that and I have to say... You are really wrong...
How play more games is benefical for Jaedong? just tell me how and the Winning % doesnt mean to much, OFC Bisu would get more winning % cus he didnt play like 5 Bo3 and 2 Bo5 series... When u play those u always get some loses and for that you get less winning % (and always against good oponents). I dont know if TLPD counts GoM but when Jaedong played against Effort (Bo5), Calm (Bo5), Fantasy (Bo5), YarnC (Bo5), Kal (Bo3), Canata (Bo5), Hwasin (Bo3), Kwanro (Bo3), Stork (Bo3), Luxury (Bo3), Zero (Bo3). You really think that Bisu playing all of those series would end with better winning % than Jaedong?? I dont really think so (And im not counting the group stages cus Bisu played that but ended losing there.)
And people say that Bisu played more "easy" oponents its cus if u play on group stages and you lose people like gogo you are losing or playing against "easy" oponents, tell me 1 of those players that played a series against Jaedong and tell me just one "easy" oponent.
Incredible Article Plexa, I really loved the Jaedong and Nada comparison, as a terran myself Nada was always my hero way above boxer or oov.
Going along those lines it'd be interesting to see if there are more comparisons between players of different races, so for example if Boxer=Savior Nada=Jaedong (in time), while current level of play is more like Jaedong=Bisu=Flash could we have some comparison like, Leta=Zero ?
On September 21 2009 06:29 ShaperofDreams wrote: Most of those players are A-class.
Also my original post not only talks about player quality but team support. In Proleague non ace games Bisu is pretty comfy because even if he loses his team still stands a damn good chance.
Again I don't want to derail this thread if you really want to get into a Jaedong vs. Bisu argument then PM me about it so I can ignore
Ah, I misinterpreted what you said. In that case, I can agree with what you said.
On September 21 2009 06:29 ShaperofDreams wrote: Most of those players are A-class.
Also my original post not only talks about player quality but team support. In Proleague non ace games Bisu is pretty comfy because even if he loses his team still stands a damn good chance.
Again I don't want to derail this thread if you really want to get into a Jaedong vs. Bisu argument then PM me about it so I can ignore
Ah, I misinterpreted what you said. In that case, I can agree with what you said.
I shouldn't have used the "silver platter" thing since it is misleading.
On September 21 2009 03:25 ForTheSwarm wrote: I don't agree with the statement that Jaedong isn't a strategical genius. Just because he doesn't use high risk/high reward tactics doesn't mean his strategical grasp on the game isn't the best in the world. I feel Jaedong makes extremely smart strategical decisions that maximize the reward to risk ratio. Obviously his mechanics are incredible, and that's what allows his to play more safely and gradually build an advantage as the game progresses. This advantage comes from smart decisions though, whereas mechanics only help in the execution.
i agree with you, and jaedong is the best, great write-up by the way
I have to agree with what several people have said (here and elsewhere) that Jaedong is likely to be the last great SC1 player (assuming SC2 succeeds in progaming). Even though I wanted Fantasy to win the last OSL, the next best thing was to see Jaedong with the Golden Mouse. I am a Jaedong fan, though my Terran pride sometimes overshadows it.
On September 21 2009 09:17 danieldrsa wrote: Statistics mean anything etc... But they have a value and its undeniable If you take recent games, even games from 1 year ago to today, Bisu´s ahead in win %, and saying its because Bisu fought easy oponents is just ridiculous.
The person saying Bisu has more wins because he played less and only easy players is nothing but fail. This same argument can be used to say that, because JD played more, he played more easy opponents than Bisu (in number) and had the opportunity to got more win %.
Well I read only that and I have to say... You are really wrong...
How play more games is benefical for Jaedong? just tell me how and the Winning % doesnt mean to much, OFC Bisu would get more winning % cus he didnt play like 5 Bo3 and 2 Bo5 series... When u play those u always get some loses and for that you get less winning % (and always against good oponents). I dont know if TLPD counts GoM but when Jaedong played against Effort (Bo5), Calm (Bo5), Fantasy (Bo5), YarnC (Bo5), Kal (Bo3), Canata (Bo5), Hwasin (Bo3), Kwanro (Bo3), Stork (Bo3), Luxury (Bo3), Zero (Bo3). You really think that Bisu playing all of those series would end with better winning % than Jaedong?? I dont really think so (And im not counting the group stages cus Bisu played that but ended losing there.)
And people say that Bisu played more "easy" oponents its cus if u play on group stages and you lose people like gogo you are losing or playing against "easy" oponents, tell me 1 of those players that played a series against Jaedong and tell me just one "easy" oponent.
All is summed by "its my opinion"
Plz end this shit of "Player A played more harder opponents than Player B".
The two are very good players and, to me, they are almost even, JD being slightly ahead (if he is at all).
You really think that Bisu playing all of those series would end with better winning % than Jaedong?? I dont really think so (And im not counting the group stages cus Bisu played that but ended losing there.)
Yeah i think Just like he is with a better win rate than JD overall, including Proleague and WCG, facing many tough opponents. Starcraft is not only OSL-MSL you know.
I like the two so much they are the main reason im still watching and liking SC today. Saying JD is miles away from Bisu is the problem here.
"Indeed, when Jaedong was still a rookie he practiced so much he almost went insane; fortunately he realised this and took the appropriate measures to stop himself going crazy."
On September 23 2009 20:32 dongfeng wrote: nice article
"Indeed, when Jaedong was still a rookie he practiced so much he almost went insane; fortunately he realised this and took the appropriate measures to stop himself going crazy."
Plexa, this is perhaps one of the best (if not THE best) articles I have ever read. Thank you for putting so much thought and insight into this. Some people may not agree but the truth has been told clearly this time that Jaedong IS the ultimate progamer during this generation (and I'm not saying this based off the fact that I'm his fanboy but purely through statistical view and achievements).
Why dont simplify this LJD vs KTY discussion just look at the player profile here on TL:
LJD has 4 major titles, KTY has 3, LJD has 11 "achievements", KTY has 8, KTY won his first starleague in 06, LJD in 07.
Summary: LJD has won more in a shorter period of time and like the other Bonjwas, hi has won 4 starleagues (OSL AND MSL) in a rapid succession (like Plexa pointed out in the article: no major slumps).
Wow great read really interesting, and has a pure bisu fan =) I have to say that you are right I also find jaedong plays with more consistency and he his almost flawless.
I would like to had I always thought that boxer was more a revolutionist has nal_ra was for protoss, Boxer did very well and changed the way poeple saw the game. But I don't find that he can follow the evolution of the game with is micro only games.
But I still think Nada is pure talent, just like jaedong they don't play for the show all the time or to amaze but they win and get the job done, with few or no mistakes. They learn and adapt their play better then any player.
One that is amazing right now is flash, to see how he can run is eco and build orders is amazing hopefully with time he will become a great player has nada and jaedong.
Flash looks as scary as jaedong ever did at his peak. Even scarier still. This from a big-time dongfan. Breaking 2400 ELO is something even the dong failed to do. But to be fair, TvT is such a skill-based matchup as opposed to ZvZ which is more luck based so one can argue that it's comparitively easier to get a 2400 ELO based on a godly talent in a non-luck based matchup.
On January 11 2010 03:27 WWJDD wrote: TvT is such a skill-based matchup as opposed to ZvZ which is more luck based
Nonsense Statement.Clearly u dont know what ur talking about. Think about it once again, but first watch this Game: Shinhan Winners League ZerO vs Jaedong 2009-02-03 @ Sin Chupung-Ryeong.
What Jaedong did in the MSL finals was prepare an exceptional set of builds to exploit Flash's every weakness. It was beautiful (and frustrating) to watch. Flash may be the better player, but the way Jaedong played that series was perfect. His preparation neutralized any raw advantage that Flash may have had and I think that series will leave a lasting impression on Flash (and quite possibly break him). Jaedong, as we all know, doesn't break.
I mean seriously, in every game Jaedong played a style where HE was in control of where the game was going. Game 1 was classic Jaedong (his 2hatch muta is so good its almost cheese now). Game 2 was him trying to dictate to Flash as best he could, but Flash reacting perfectly. Game 3 was Jaedong saying "lol we're going to play a macro game and I'm going to beat you at it".
And I'm almost sad he didn't win game 2. Just seconds more and, I'm convinced, he would have. He just didn't have the larva for enough scourge/ultras/ling to mop up the rest of those marines/drop ships. It was a lot closer than it looked.
As game 2 showed, Jaedong still has trouble shifting all the way over to a defensive posture. Effort or Zero would have won that game because they would have morphed the guardians near their own bases and held off any drops Flash would have tried. Jaedong found an opening in Flash's base defense, saw two starports with control towers, and made the erroneous assumption that Flash was making pure vessels and that his guardians could run wild for a lot longer than they actually would. Guardians simply don't fit his style at all D:
But yeah, I'm glad you recognized how excellent Jaedong's preparations were, Plexa. He won the mind games/build order battles four games out of four against Flash, which is pretty much unprecedented.
Pretty much agree with Plexa. Flash said that his gameplan against Kwanro, besides bunker rushing of course, was to just freestyle and play how he was most comfortable. It was evident that Flash was doing the same against Jaedong, but Jaedong brought some unique builds to capitalize on that unmoving target and to compensate for the maps.
Despite build order disadvantages, Flash was still putting up strong resistance based solely on his raw TvZ skill. The series, pre-fiasco, was shaping up to be a true testament to, and battle between, Jaedong's characteristically great Bo5 preparation and Flash's steadfast but supreme TvZ. Indeed, Jaedong was edging Flash out, and I feel that Flash should have brought just a little bit more from home. Perhaps his schedule really was too hectic to do so, I'm not sure. Alas.
At any rate, I feel that neither the last game nor the score were truly representative. There's always going to be a question mark on it. Also, worst series ever to watch live. My eyeballs themselves are literally hurting. I'm not sure if that's normal or not, but I hope it stops soon.
Well. T always has it easier vs Z by design. So for two players with insane skill levels the imbalance gets really hard to overcome. Z better prepare the hell out or he's not going to win a game at that level unless the map is tilted in Z's favor.
On January 11 2010 03:27 WWJDD wrote: TvT is such a skill-based matchup as opposed to ZvZ which is more luck based
Nonsense Statement.Clearly u dont know what ur talking about. Think about it once again, but first watch this Game: Shinhan Winners League ZerO vs Jaedong 2009-02-03 @ Sin Chupung-Ryeong.
I'm going to bump this after being linked back to it in this month's Power Ranking. Because it's a good read, and because some people need to quit with the personal attacks against the writer.
Also because I cannot believe I never commented on this. One day I want to be able to write like you, Plexa.
Reading this made me feel shameful that I have barely watched NaDa, yet boxer is probably my 3rd most watched player. (I play zerg, so 1st is jaedong, 2nd is savior)
while savior was the poineer, I feel jaedong has done far more for zerg.
Although I hate JD, I must say he's the best as of now, and not even Flash can knock him off... unless of course someone thats Just absolutely terrible like me (E) beats him in a BO7 and they both play straight up. But, after all those wins, I still can't say he will be a bonjwa. He's won those titles, but they have some breaks between them. Remember when Flash 2-0ed him in the KA OSL ro8? like when BaBy played outstanding sc? Jaedong DOES have a weakness, one that when people find out, he covers it up so quickly. but then that means players have to throw axes and hammers Into that weak point as soon as it is found. that will be extremely unlikely. JD will get more titles than NaDa, but will not be bonjwa. He is mortal, and will die someday... someday...
Hopefully TL doesn't get mad because of bumping this, but I feel that new generations must read this piece of art. The text is so well written and highlights why Jaedong is the best zerg in history.
He shall awaken the monster inside him once again. Jaedong Fighting!
On December 11 2011 04:32 Art.FeeL wrote: Hopefully TL doesn't get mad because of bumping this, but I feel that new generations must read this piece of art. The text is so well written and highlights why Jaedong is the best zerg in history.
He shall awaken the monster inside him once again. Jaedong Fighting!
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/HereToStay.jpg)
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BoxeR - 6120 - 17.46%
sAviOr - 6522 - 18.61%![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Here_To_Stay/7.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6935/jaedongibelievelc3.gif)
