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On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD A macro zerg? idk, maybe GGPlay in his period..?
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Comparing Bisu and Jaedong in the Zerg season feels kind of odd to me.
Jaedong is the better Bo3+ Player atm which gives him a lead over Bisu, but skillwise imo they are roughly even.
On September 19 2009 15:47 chongu wrote: Mmmmmm, i look forward to a Jaedong vs Bisu Finals next season!!! hopefully no mess-ups from either side : )
In fact a small mess-up from either side tend to lead to a victory from the other.
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Awesome as always Plexa. The flavortext for the pictures are hilarious.
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Woohoo, great article Plexa. I've been feeling NaDa and JD are alike for a while now, so it's great to see it pointed out!
Also:
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A minor point I had to make here:
ZvZ is not simply mechanics. Sure micro plays a huge part, and Jaedong has been the best zerg microer for the past few years now. However, there is no way that Jaedong could hold an 80% ZvZ winning percentage without also having amazing decision making. Every little aspect of a close ZvZ matchup is decided on the seemingly basic decisions you make. How many drones do I make? Do I make muta or scourge? Is it worth it to create this sunken?
You have to be so good at reading every individual situation that no one believed someone would ever be as good as Jaedong is at it. He's shown us that you can make perfect reads in ZvZ after all, and it's not just heavily based on luck. He's shown us that you can actually come back in a ZvZ if you play everything perfectly and use every unit to it's utmost potential (see Jaedong vs Oversky on Andromeda here).
Overall, I do see your point, though. His mechanics have opened up new strategies for him more so than he's actually created new strategies himself. You mentioned his use of queens, but it also extends into every aspect of his mutalisk control, in every matchup. Without amazing muta control, he wouldn't be able to make a round of them in the middle of a ZvP, and actually put them to great use sniping templar. Or win ZvT without ever transitioning past mutas. It's these kinds of things that completely throw off his opponents, and further allow his mechanics to dominate games.
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When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that.
Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it?
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On September 19 2009 19:09 wifebeater wrote:Show nested quote +When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that. Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it? he is referring to this one http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10749_fantasy_vs_Jaedong/vod
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Thanks~~.
And GJ Plexa btw.
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Bisu doesn't make basic errors lol (except for that last game vs JD which was quite sad).
Protoss was the forgotten race for so long that Bisu making it look imba is extra worthy xD
And yeah, JD is clearly the best atm.
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you can't say that determination is what carries him through. most if not all progamers are pretty determined and practice an insane amount of hours even to get to the stage of being a progamer, and probably they don't let up. saying that Jaedong is special because of his determination seems like a way of sweeping everything under one rug.
sure he's not a genius in terms of build order or trickery, but that just means that he is a genius in terms of game flow in the main lines of the matchup.
i dislike how so many people always say that a person's strength is some sort of psychological thing. though it's true a lot of the cases, it doesn't make them different from many other competitors who are just as strong psychologically.
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A lot of people say that Jaedong isn't a great strategist -- that he's primarily got good mechanics, fast hands, and a strong will. I completely disagree: he's a great strategist. I've always been a huge fan of the Boxer and Fantasy players, the brilliant strategists, and when I watch Jaedong I don't see a lack of strategic ability. I just think Jaedong does whatever it takes to win -- if something unconventional will help him win, then he will do it, and he has the skill and the knowledge to pull off great strategic plays.
Jaedong's game is complete and everything he does is meant to lead to victory -- he doesn't try flashy strategies just for the sake of looking cool, and since his game is so incredibly strong overall (mechanics, multitasking, hand speed, micro, macro, tactics, strategy), he doesn't need to cheese or come up with unpredictable strategies in the same way that Boxer did. Boxer's relatively poor macro was one of the big reasons why he needed to rely on unexpected strategies more than Jaedong does. When Jaedong's playing, if he thinks straight-up play will have a higher chance of winning than sneaky strategy, then he'll play a straight-up game and win. Boxer lived and died by his unconventional plays, whereas for Jaedong unpredictability is just one of many available paths to a win.
Jaedong plays to win, and his bag of tricks is fucking enormous. He doesn't usually need to cheese or try something off the beaten path, but he will do it if he senses it's the best way to win a particular game. He is basically top or close to top in every aspect of StarCraft and his strategic ability is no exception: Jaedong has great builds, great timing, great prediction, great gameplans, knows whether to use a small advantage to break an opponent's defense down or to build up his own army and extend his map dominance, he can lose 2 games in a best-of-5 to an opponent and is better than anyone else at adapting/recovering to win the series, and he has successfully executed unconventional strategies (such as defiler+queen). Add all of these up and you have "strategy".
Jaedong is a brilliant goddamn strategist.
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Awesome write-up, especially coming from such an Anti-fan as yourself. Nice to see the mods are un-biased !
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2009 16:01 Sentenal wrote: Jaedong is currently above Bisu, but I don't think its as much as what that article makes it out to be. It feels like you are knocking Bisu for getting knocked out of the MSL, and giving Jaedong a pass on it. Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is the main difference between the two, and the main reason Jaedong>Bisu right now. Bisu does make small mistakes that end up costing him the game, like vs Iris, or game 5 GOM special match. He does it more than Jaedong. But Jaedong still does it too, if you remember stuff like his canceled spire vs Bisu.
So yeah, Jaedong is better right now, but I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you imply. It certainly comes across like that but it would be foolish to suggest Bisu isn't number two in the world at the moment. Yea Calm and Fantasy had better achievements last season but we all know at the core that Bisu is #2.
On September 19 2009 17:42 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD A macro zerg? idk, maybe GGPlay in his period..? There probably will be, and there have been pretty strong implications that that's going to be either calm or effort (Sorry kwanro you just don't have all your bases covered ). I have a feeling it will be calm, since iloveoov was a very very clever player who had a brilliant read on the game (check out i loved victory for my analysis on that) and wasn't particularly noted for his speed - calm is a strategical player with tons of potential so he could certainly step up and take it to the next level.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
top3 writeup here ever, it gave me chills throughout the read, maybe has something to do with my rabid JD fanboyism aswell. excellent work Plexa!
can't wait for the next season to start, but somehow im so very afraid that JD is gonna fall, that he doesn't have the drive anymore, let us hope that ain't the case!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2009 11:01 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2009 10:27 Plexa wrote: Jaedong on the other hand hasn't brought anything new to the table since he's been at the top. And the thing is, because of his style, he doesn't need to. There are minor modifications like earlier hydras in TvZ to counter mech, but on the whole, his 2hatch muta style is still as viable as ever. This extends through to Bisu as well and so on.
Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 10:00 EvoChamber wrote:
But you may be downplaying just how much Protoss was walking over Zerg before Jaedong's ascension at EVER. Yes, his vP was terrible before and up to game 1 against Stork. But as Hot_Bid pointed out in his FE, Jaedong learned ZvP right before our eyes in the finals of the most coveted prestigious league. Less than a month later, he proved the viability of 3hatch scourge->5hatch hydra against the world's best PvZer, Bisu, on Blue Storm and began the counter-revolution against forge FE that's reversed nearly all the advantages in strategy and morale that Bisu earned when he slaughtered Savior. At the same time, he was raping Terrans left and right with 2hatch muta and winning the great majority of his ZvZs. Only the sudden rise of Flash prevented him from winning both leagues that spring. It's possible that Jaedong's ZvP might still be abysmal if he had played Bisu in the EVER finals instead of Stork, but that's not what happened. Just as Flash would do in Bacchus, he used Stork to evolve his vP matchup to an S-class level and soon reversed the flow of the metagame (no more carriers vs. T, no more sair/dt vs. Z). Jaedong's strategic achievements (regression to 2hatch vs. T, expansion to 5hatch vs. P, complete paradigm shift vZ) are not as flashy as Savior's (3 hatch muta->lurker/defiler->ultra/ling vs. T, muta/lurk vs. P), but they have also had a great influence on the metagame. The reason 75% of OSL/MSL semifinalists are Zerg this season isn't just maps; it's also Jaedong, who proved that a focus on mechanics and execution could solve problems in the metagame that players with a broader strategic vision and weaker mechanics, like Savior, could not, or at the very least make those problems easier to solve. Is a pretty good rebuttal to that. Also Plexa, before you say it, JD was the one who showed that the way to counter sairs was with scourge. (Not the July vs Best game) Just see the JD vs Bisu game on BS. Aha! Someone reads my posts Okay, if you really want to get technical on the issue then actually 815 came weeks before Jaedong vs Bisu to show Zerg really how to play on Blue Storm and yes, he used scourge to counter corsairs. In addition to that Jaedong immediately dropped using scourge to counter corsairs in Arena and reverted back to the standard hydralisk counter. Similarly, despite how good that game was, that build never really escaped out of Blue Storm and the majority of players still prefered the hydralisk counter. July's use of the build on Andromeda (and the subsequent developments on destination) is what really made that build stick in our minds. So yea, July wasn't first to use it - but he was the one who made it popular. Similarly, 2hat muta is nothing new - but Jaedong certainly made it popular.
My memory of Ever07 isn't as clear as thing after that, but I don't think that really counts. Yes he did learn how to ZvP but I think that stemmed from the fact that he was utterly determine to triumph over Stork. His builds reflected his natural style e.g. the muta/scourge thing on Katrina and I don't think that series really changed anything so far as ZvP strategy goes. It would be wrong to say Jaedong is devoid of any strategical insight, but what I'm arguing is that on balance, it is the weakest of his traits.
I like what EvoChamber is arguing, and I somewhat agree. Zergs this past season have caught up to Jaedong with respect to execution. When Jaedong/Luxury was big there were only 2 (maybe 3 incl. kwanro) players who could execute the 2hatch muta style. No other Zerg could replicate it effectively - and they got slaughtered. Hence why there were only 2 Zergs in the leagues. Now players have practiced and caught up to Jaedong's mechanics. Well, at least closed the gap so now they can execute his strategies.
Here's where Savior and Jaedong differ. Once Savior was figured out (by Bisu/Nada/FBH kinda) people had little difficulty defeating him. Since Savior's focus was on strategy, he needed to take another look at the state of Zerg and find a new winning combination (and then abuse that until it was solved). So far he has not done that. Well, actually, partly that's due to Savior losing his game sense and partly because he was figured out, but nevertheless the strategy thing is in there.
Jaedong, on the other hand, is riding his mechanics to stay on top. He doesn't need to reinvent himself like Savior (and Boxer) had to to stay on top; he just needs to practice to keep his skills sharp. Hence why he's able to stay on top and will be able to stay on top for a lot longer. He's got one formula which works, and he just executes it perfectly every time.
Edit: Also, his zvp developments even lead for people like ret to understand and dominate the matchup now. Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 22:43 ret wrote: Right now, I feel like my ZvP is easily my best matchup. And I owe it all to the Bisu vs Jaedong game on destination. I feel like there is nothing protoss can do that I can't counter.
I thank you:
LEE JAE DONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not convinced Jaedong is leading any revolution on the ZvP front. Yes he's refining the builds and whatnot, but that's not revolutionary. He's not ahead of the curve, he's right on the curve. Zero is an example of a player who is ahead of the Curve - his use of Queens on Heartbreak for instance. Hyun, as terrible as he is, also is ahead of the curve but is so much weaker in every other area lolol. Again, its the Jaedong formula in use
Really good post btw
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I love your write up! But I have to say that fore me JD is one of the most intelligent players around which is most visible in his ZvZ where he sneaks zerglings and really seem to read the opponents mind with superior BOs. I think you tend to fall in the usual trap that consists of thinking that one has to be one of two things like: artistically or mathematically skilled, good at micro or macro, intelligent or beautiful etc.. I think that is a stereotypical way of thinking, though I agree that JDs builds tend to be more macro heavy and "straight up" than those of - say - Fantasy or Boxer. One uf the best write ups I have seen on TL though, great work!
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc
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Nicely done, although i heard Nada went into crazymode and won everything when his father passed away
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