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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On September 19 2009 10:02 GrimAngel wrote: i really agree how jaedong is like nada since he's the 2nd great zerg after savior, like how nada is 2nd to boxer. I wonder if there will ever be an iloveoov zerg equivalent? XD A macro zerg? idk, maybe GGPlay in his period..? | ||
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dnosrc
Germany454 Posts
Jaedong is the better Bo3+ Player atm which gives him a lead over Bisu, but skillwise imo they are roughly even. On September 19 2009 15:47 chongu wrote: Mmmmmm, i look forward to a Jaedong vs Bisu Finals next season!!! hopefully no mess-ups from either side : ) In fact a small mess-up from either side tend to lead to a victory from the other. | ||
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Cyrox
Sweden147 Posts
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nadafanboy42
Netherlands209 Posts
Also: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/ShinHan3OSLQuarters/nadaibelievelc4.gif) ![[image loading]](http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6935/jaedongibelievelc3.gif)  | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
ZvZ is not simply mechanics. Sure micro plays a huge part, and Jaedong has been the best zerg microer for the past few years now. However, there is no way that Jaedong could hold an 80% ZvZ winning percentage without also having amazing decision making. Every little aspect of a close ZvZ matchup is decided on the seemingly basic decisions you make. How many drones do I make? Do I make muta or scourge? Is it worth it to create this sunken? You have to be so good at reading every individual situation that no one believed someone would ever be as good as Jaedong is at it. He's shown us that you can make perfect reads in ZvZ after all, and it's not just heavily based on luck. He's shown us that you can actually come back in a ZvZ if you play everything perfectly and use every unit to it's utmost potential (see Jaedong vs Oversky on Andromeda here). Overall, I do see your point, though. His mechanics have opened up new strategies for him more so than he's actually created new strategies himself. You mentioned his use of queens, but it also extends into every aspect of his mutalisk control, in every matchup. Without amazing muta control, he wouldn't be able to make a round of them in the middle of a ZvP, and actually put them to great use sniping templar. Or win ZvT without ever transitioning past mutas. It's these kinds of things that completely throw off his opponents, and further allow his mechanics to dominate games. | ||
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wifebeater
178 Posts
When Coach Park Yong Oon told the Zerg players to research the uses of queen in ZvT in preparation for fantasy vs Jaedong match. The players told us that the queen was too difficult to use queens and defilers at the same time. Not too long after that, Jaedong used Dark Swarm and Ensnare together to defeat fantasy. I learned that Jaedong is a scary player from that. Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it? | ||
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
On September 19 2009 19:09 wifebeater wrote: Ensnare and Dark Swarm? Sounds like an awesome match man.. But the question is, which game is Kingdom referring to? Jaedong has played against Fantasy alot, a grand total of 13 times actually.. And Jaedong has managed to win 7 out of those games, so which one is it? he is referring to this one http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10749_fantasy_vs_Jaedong/vod | ||
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wifebeater
178 Posts
And GJ Plexa btw. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Protoss was the forgotten race for so long that Bisu making it look imba is extra worthy xD And yeah, JD is clearly the best atm. | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
sure he's not a genius in terms of build order or trickery, but that just means that he is a genius in terms of game flow in the main lines of the matchup. i dislike how so many people always say that a person's strength is some sort of psychological thing. though it's true a lot of the cases, it doesn't make them different from many other competitors who are just as strong psychologically. | ||
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Zeburial
Sweden1126 Posts
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grax
United States41 Posts
Jaedong's game is complete and everything he does is meant to lead to victory -- he doesn't try flashy strategies just for the sake of looking cool, and since his game is so incredibly strong overall (mechanics, multitasking, hand speed, micro, macro, tactics, strategy), he doesn't need to cheese or come up with unpredictable strategies in the same way that Boxer did. Boxer's relatively poor macro was one of the big reasons why he needed to rely on unexpected strategies more than Jaedong does. When Jaedong's playing, if he thinks straight-up play will have a higher chance of winning than sneaky strategy, then he'll play a straight-up game and win. Boxer lived and died by his unconventional plays, whereas for Jaedong unpredictability is just one of many available paths to a win. Jaedong plays to win, and his bag of tricks is fucking enormous. He doesn't usually need to cheese or try something off the beaten path, but he will do it if he senses it's the best way to win a particular game. He is basically top or close to top in every aspect of StarCraft and his strategic ability is no exception: Jaedong has great builds, great timing, great prediction, great gameplans, knows whether to use a small advantage to break an opponent's defense down or to build up his own army and extend his map dominance, he can lose 2 games in a best-of-5 to an opponent and is better than anyone else at adapting/recovering to win the series, and he has successfully executed unconventional strategies (such as defiler+queen). Add all of these up and you have "strategy". Jaedong is a brilliant goddamn strategist. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
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Skeggaba
Korea (South)1556 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2009 16:01 Sentenal wrote: It certainly comes across like that but it would be foolish to suggest Bisu isn't number two in the world at the moment. Yea Calm and Fantasy had better achievements last season but we all know at the core that Bisu is #2.Jaedong is currently above Bisu, but I don't think its as much as what that article makes it out to be. It feels like you are knocking Bisu for getting knocked out of the MSL, and giving Jaedong a pass on it. Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is the main difference between the two, and the main reason Jaedong>Bisu right now. Bisu does make small mistakes that end up costing him the game, like vs Iris, or game 5 GOM special match. He does it more than Jaedong. But Jaedong still does it too, if you remember stuff like his canceled spire vs Bisu. So yeah, Jaedong is better right now, but I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you imply. On September 19 2009 17:42 Iplaythings wrote: There probably will be, and there have been pretty strong implications that that's going to be either calm or effort (Sorry kwanro you just don't have all your bases covered A macro zerg? idk, maybe GGPlay in his period..?  ). I have a feeling it will be calm, since iloveoov was a very very clever player who had a brilliant read on the game (check out i loved victory for my analysis on that) and wasn't particularly noted for his speed - calm is a strategical player with tons of potential so he could certainly step up and take it to the next level. | ||
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
can't wait for the next season to start, but somehow im so very afraid that JD is gonna fall, that he doesn't have the drive anymore, let us hope that ain't the case! | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2009 11:01 Harem wrote: Aha! Someone reads my posts Is a pretty good rebuttal to that. Also Plexa, before you say it, JD was the one who showed that the way to counter sairs was with scourge. (Not the July vs Best game) Just see the JD vs Bisu game on BS.  Okay, if you really want to get technical on the issue then actually 815 came weeks before Jaedong vs Bisu to show Zerg really how to play on Blue Storm and yes, he used scourge to counter corsairs. In addition to that Jaedong immediately dropped using scourge to counter corsairs in Arena and reverted back to the standard hydralisk counter. Similarly, despite how good that game was, that build never really escaped out of Blue Storm and the majority of players still prefered the hydralisk counter. July's use of the build on Andromeda (and the subsequent developments on destination) is what really made that build stick in our minds. So yea, July wasn't first to use it - but he was the one who made it popular. Similarly, 2hat muta is nothing new - but Jaedong certainly made it popular. My memory of Ever07 isn't as clear as thing after that, but I don't think that really counts. Yes he did learn how to ZvP but I think that stemmed from the fact that he was utterly determine to triumph over Stork. His builds reflected his natural style e.g. the muta/scourge thing on Katrina and I don't think that series really changed anything so far as ZvP strategy goes. It would be wrong to say Jaedong is devoid of any strategical insight, but what I'm arguing is that on balance, it is the weakest of his traits. I like what EvoChamber is arguing, and I somewhat agree. Zergs this past season have caught up to Jaedong with respect to execution. When Jaedong/Luxury was big there were only 2 (maybe 3 incl. kwanro) players who could execute the 2hatch muta style. No other Zerg could replicate it effectively - and they got slaughtered. Hence why there were only 2 Zergs in the leagues. Now players have practiced and caught up to Jaedong's mechanics. Well, at least closed the gap so now they can execute his strategies.Here's where Savior and Jaedong differ. Once Savior was figured out (by Bisu/Nada/FBH kinda) people had little difficulty defeating him. Since Savior's focus was on strategy, he needed to take another look at the state of Zerg and find a new winning combination (and then abuse that until it was solved). So far he has not done that. Well, actually, partly that's due to Savior losing his game sense and partly because he was figured out, but nevertheless the strategy thing is in there. Jaedong, on the other hand, is riding his mechanics to stay on top. He doesn't need to reinvent himself like Savior (and Boxer) had to to stay on top; he just needs to practice to keep his skills sharp. Hence why he's able to stay on top and will be able to stay on top for a lot longer. He's got one formula which works, and he just executes it perfectly every time. Edit: Also, his zvp developments even lead for people like ret to understand and dominate the matchup now. I'm not convinced Jaedong is leading any revolution on the ZvP front. Yes he's refining the builds and whatnot, but that's not revolutionary. He's not ahead of the curve, he's right on the curve. Zero is an example of a player who is ahead of the Curve - his use of Queens on Heartbreak for instance. Hyun, as terrible as he is, also is ahead of the curve but is so much weaker in every other area lolol. Again, its the Jaedong formula in use Really good post btw | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
And I have to add that I think WCG Korea = 1\2 Starleague at most. A lot less pressure, more active seeding, smaller tournament etc | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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