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Braavos36399 Posts
So you're saying that dominance is a product of the margin of victory? (or maybe what people perceive as the margin of victory?)
What about all the 3-2 wins Oov and Savior had? Just because people were SURE they were going to win that makes the win somehow "less close" than when Bisu wins 3-2?
By the way, I don't think anyone, not Oov or Savior, has ever won a league going 3-0 semis (vs at the time best PvP) and 3-0 finals (vs best PvZ ever). How is this not dominance??
Edit: Especially when using Protoss, a race many people assumed would never be able to be as consistent as T or Z. People forget how much of an underdog P was in the year or so before Bisu's GomTV1 win.
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United States2352 Posts
Again, on the protoss point, you've got it; he's the best protoss ever, the most dominant, etc.
In general, I think dominance is psychological and it's just not there for Bisu yet. It's a fine distinction: his greatness is in his psychological play, but in terms of the overall psychology surrounding the current scene, I just don't think people view him fearfully the same way. It's not the margin of victory as much as being absolutely the best. I'm just saying the jury is still out. If he doesn't win at least MSL this time, would you still say he was an uber-dominant player?
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BISU IS THE BEST, BINE ENOUGH SAID
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Braavos36399 Posts
On October 24 2007 05:05 bine wrote:
Again, on the protoss point, you've got it; he's the best protoss ever, the most dominant, etc.
In general, I think dominance is psychological and it's just not there for Bisu yet. It's a fine distinction: his greatness is in his psychological play, but in terms of the overall psychology surrounding the current scene, I just don't think people view him fearfully the same way. It's not the margin of victory as much as being absolutely the best. I'm just saying the jury is still out. If he doesn't win at least MSL this time, would you still say he was an uber-dominant player?
Between GomTV1 and when (if) he loses in the current MSL, yes, I'd say he was dominant for 9 months.
"Fear" is hard to quantify in terms of ZvP. I don't think people really are believing their eyes yet. Most Zergs when they play Bisu, since he's still relatively new, are still in a state of "what the hell is happening" when they play him. They have been successful at ZvP for so long, and their little universe is being turned on its head. Did you see the clip of Savior being consoled by his coach after GomTV1? Bisu BROKE him. That brutal 3-0 was the direct reason why Savior "slumped" (can we even call it that, I guess he did slump by Savior standards) after. I hated Bisu for it, but thought to myself, if he can continue winning, then I can't fault him, because it wasn't a fluke.
What is psychological fear?
Fear is Flash, a macro player, cheese rushing twice because he doesn't want to play straight up.
Fear is Stork, the second best Protoss, saying:
"Once for an important ProLeague match, we got some supports from MBC Heroes, and Bisu was helping me prepare a PvsZ. It was unbelievable! In one game I was practicing, all of a sudden Bisu began to describe which kinds of battles will occur on the map after some minutes, on which spot of the map, which units, how many units and so on... and it happened right that way exactly! I asked afterwards how did he do that, but he didn't tell me."
Fear is the best ZvP in the world (10-0 in ZvP series other than you) changing his ZvP style.
Fear is getting the badass clips in the OSL/MSL intros, despite that sappy girly commercial.
Fear is making players react to what you're doing, to put pressure on them so that they don't play like they usually do, that they are uncomfortable, that they try risky builds and bad decisions. When you watch Bisu's games, watch how his opponents play, how they react to him. Watch how they KNOW what he's going to do a lot of the times yet can't do anything about it (remind you of a certain Zerg or a certain Terran?)
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United States2352 Posts
On October 24 2007 05:09 skcaH wrote:
BISU IS THE BEST, BINE ENOUGH SAID
exactly.
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Uhm, Bisu unlocked the 3-gas PvZ pandora's box, and that makes him untouchable and great. (I'm talking about when a toss has the option to go for the kill (FE only is still a do or die), and his strong harassing play is only there to sett him up for the lategame kill.)
Nada unlocked marine mirco. (APM lol)
Oov unlocked FE terran. (timing and macro)
Savior unlocked the 3-hatch-muta into lurker darkswarm. (great planning and good macro)
All of these players led the way and had a reign of dominance in the sense of other players not finding an answer to this in different race matchups, while at the same time providing solid same race performance.
This is what makes a player great. Eventually counters are found, but as of now, the high resource toss is the bane of zerg. It's certainly map-dependant, but occasionally we have those that even counters map-favorism and does the impossible, and while that is great part luck, it's also simply something else and out of this world.
Like Savior dominating MSL on zerg-maps, but taking an OSL on what I'd call very terran-friendly maps. That's just awesome and shows sheer will power and pressure built from respect.
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He is not dominant. For him to be dominant, he will have to win more starleagues.
What Bisu is is the best. And quite frankly, he's the closest there is to dominant. He's not there yet, but he could become a great, a legend.
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I don't know near enough about progaming to fully enter this discussion, I'll only share my opinion as to why I think he is a dominant Protoss.
No, he is not as revered as Oov or Savior were at their peaks (yet). What scares me is not a stellar winrate, but the fact that his game has no largely exploitable flaws. If I were a player, and after analyzing his replays for a week had found no weaknesses, nothing I could grip onto to try and knock him down, knowing the only way to win would be through equally perfect micro, macro, control and timing, I would be scared.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hotbid: oov lost 2-3 to july in gillette osl and beat silent_control 3-2 in the 3rd/4th match
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Braavos36399 Posts
On October 24 2007 09:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hotbid: oov lost 2-3 to july in gillette osl and beat silent_control 3-2 in the 3rd/4th match
thanks for correction.
my point was that these matches were when Oov was at the peak of his ELO and according to bine, his dominance, and it shows both that ELO is not an end-all indicator of how good a player is and that Oov was having close matches too.
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I thought Hwasin had it but he made some key errors:
First he kept trying to put down his 4th expansion without securing the ramps, he had to rebuild that command center 3 times because he didnt have tanks and mines in place to defend it.
Secondly, he over committed to the 12 expand. In the end he has 10-20 tanks more than he required to take the base, but left nothing at his 3rd and 4th expansions. Bisu sidestepped the knockout punch and blindsided him.
Once the 3rd and 4th expand were down Hwasin was trying to defend with goliaths against goons because his tanks were still up at the 12 o'clock; and his economy was dead; the commentators show you how little is left in the 2 bases he was taking resources from.
Bisu is a monster, but I feel Hwasin lost this one rather than Bisu winning it. Hwasin countered every move Bisu made, and at one point was ahead on expansions; if he had gone straight for Bisu's main rather than his 12 expand he might even have won.
[Edit]
I also wanted to add that I think people are giving Bisu a little to much credit for the end. Put yourself in his position, when the 12 expand dies you have just lost a big chunk of tech, AND you are behind on expansions against terran.
Realistically, what are your options ?
Economically you are just going to fall further and further behind with yoru 2 expansions against HWasins 3. So you take whatever you have, throw it at him, and hope something sticks; in this case it worked but I dont think it was some inspired genius. It was one last roll of the dice to see if he could win a game which was clearly slipping away from him, and it worked.
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That is really one nice writeup and I enjoy also to follow the discussion between HotBid and Bine.
I was not aware of Bisu at all before DJEtter mentioned Bisu in his first PowerRanking. Now I am a big fan, hope he can continue do what he does in MSL till now. Protoss need really one dominant player, one really champion.
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I can't believe how one calls bisu "not dominant".
You can argue that he hasn't yet achieved the historycal greatness of nada, savior ... but he IS the one dominant force for some time now.
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The remainder of this MSL and OSL is going to be a very interesting lot. With Hwasin facing down Iris to survive in the OSL, Bisu has an exceptionally good chance at both of those titles. That said, if he can take either one he'll be the only Protoss player in history to win three starleagues and with the way he's playing he deserves it.
Furthermore, IIRc bar the 0:2 loss to Flash, almost all of Bisu's major losses of late have come from either special events (IE, the Loss vs Hwasin in STX vs MBC, loss versus Luxury in OGN vs MBC) or the proleague itself. With Bisu now playing the 2v2's (and he's pulling in the results there) I would expect his statistics in 1v1's to improve.
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Excellent write up Oxygen !
Very entertaining read and those pics were <3.
Keep up the great work and write more!
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I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3.
I did not get the same impression when I looked at it.
Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process.
He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units).
For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
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Beesuit is gonna take the 3rd MSL in a row. Protoss kills all 
PS:Very good writing, thanks a lot.
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Braavos36399 Posts
On October 25 2007 02:37 Beamo wrote:
I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3.
I did not get the same impression when I looked at it.
Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process.
He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units).
For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
I do not think you fully understand how PvT works. P usually takes its 3rd before the T, and if Bisu didn't DT drop, he would have had his third, a larger army, and a higher probe count. His nat expo was way later than Hwasin's because of the DT drop, and since he didn't do that much damage, Bisu was behind. Hwasin was ahead when he attacked, the reason he lost was because his armies were split, he had half his army defending and half of it killing Bisu 12:00. If Hwasin had his full army together I do not think Bisu wins the fight.
I still believe that the fact that Bisu is Protoss hurts the "aura." It's something that is built over time, and I think when we look back on this period we'll see Bisu as more "invincible" than he appears to us now.
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On October 25 2007 03:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2007 02:37 Beamo wrote:
I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3.
I did not get the same impression when I looked at it.
Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process.
He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units).
For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win. I do not think you fully understand how PvT works. P usually takes its 3rd before the T, and if Bisu didn't DT drop, he would have had his third, a larger army, and a higher probe count. His nat expo was way later than Hwasin's because of the DT drop, and since he didn't do that much damage, Bisu was behind. Hwasin was ahead when he attacked, the reason he lost was because his armies were split, he had half his army defending and half of it killing Bisu 12:00. If Hwasin had his full army together I do not think Bisu wins the fight. I still believe that the fact that Bisu is Protoss hurts the "aura." It's something that is built over time, and I think when we look back on this period we'll see Bisu as more "invincible" than he appears to us now. I agree. People, even protosses are still used to them being the race that will never have a consistent winner.
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