EPT
Hwasin vs Bisu [spoilers] - Page 4
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1171 Posts
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boudiou
France190 Posts
It is such a pleasure to see the rising of mobility taking over positionning. It's so impressive how terran look helpless after those games of smart and swift moves. I mean look at hwasin face he seems so astonished, except may be the clustered goliath under psy storm what else could have he done? Well yeah he could have moved earlier may be, but hell at that very moment he had all the reasons to be confident. Against anyone else he would have roll over the map and over the game. Someway it's hard to believe it happened. I feel sorry for him, after stork incredible early games in wcg he falls for awesome end game against another toss. (and hell I don't usually like terrans much) Still he is such a great player. EDIT: Ho and the analysis just emphasized the pleasure I had with this game. And it will greatly contribute to the pleasure I'll have watching it again > | ||
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Kacas
Brazil3143 Posts
On October 22 2007 11:28 Wizard wrote: "Well that did a lot of damage" "Shut up, or I'm not taking you home" <3 haha =*** | ||
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Oxygen
Canada3581 Posts
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bine
United States2352 Posts
I wouldn't dislike bisu if there weren't so many people pretending that he's dominant. He's really good, OK. But he isn't clearly the best. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On October 24 2007 01:23 bine wrote: arrogant + lucky = no thanks I wouldn't dislike bisu if there weren't so many people pretending that he's dominant. He's really good, OK. But he isn't clearly the best. How did Bisu get lucky? And I don't see how you can say he's just "really good." He's definitely dominant and clearly the best, no other Protoss in history has won back to back, let alone 3 straight times. Bisu the most consistent Protoss winner since... I can't remember back when a toss was this dominant. Only one other Protoss has won an MSL out of the 14 or so MSLs there have been, and that was Ra back in 2003. No Protoss, in the OSL or MSL, has ever won a final against a Zerg, let alone 3-0 the best ZvP player of all time. But of course, we're all just "pretending" that he's dominant. What evidence do you have that he "isn't clearly the best"? You just sound like a hater. | ||
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bine
United States2352 Posts
When someone is dominant it suggests that no one can touch him. In his last 15 games, he's 8-7, losing to oov, light, luxury among others. He's fifth in ELO. There are a handful of players that have decent odds against him, despite the fact that he has been doing really well in MSLs. Even though Bisu won convincingly, the Hwasin games were very close (not dominant) and the battles he won were sort of "inexplicable" by all accounts, which to me suggests luck as opposed to some sort of innate magical power that rearranged the programming of the game. Obviously there are a million factors at work, and my invocation of luck was meant to be a sensational counter to all of the claims of like "champion blood" and "fighting spirit" and all that other carlodajinesque bullshit getting thrown around about Bisu. He's overhyped. That's it. He's famous for beating Savior in such a dramatic fashion. That was crazy, and I can't believe he did it, blah blah blah. But again just look at the ELO. Obviously it's not perfect, but there are four people who presently are beating harder players than he is more consistently. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
On October 22 2007 22:42 CubEdIn wrote: Well that's the problem with Hwasin's highly precise play. It's highly precise because that's what he ALWAYS does. I'm not saying he should cheese now and then, but one who's seen many of his VODs will most likely be able to feel Hwasin's moves. Not like Bisu, of course, but one will have a general idea of what he'll do next. He always pushes when he has a certain number of tanks and a certain number of vults, with little variations. He never goes anything other than 1 fact expand, which is just a shame because if you look at his unit control early game it's horrifying. I bet that if this guy would go 2 fact (or even 3) in TvP he could take down A LOT of players in less than 10 minutes. Especially since everyone is expecting 1-fact-expo. I didn't like Hwasin that much, because he's too predictable, but his unit controll is extremely good... too bad he's really predictable. Well, If I'm not wrong, remember ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/sAviOr.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/Hwasin.jpg) And about 3rd game on Zodiac, seriously man How the fuck did ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/Bisu.jpg) Bisu better win 3 more msl's in a row now | ||
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mihkeL
Estonia27 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
According to your standards of "nobody can touch him," nobody has EVER been dominant in professional BW. Savior won Shinhan3 and his first few MSLs with several 3-2 wins. Iloveoov lost series games during his crazy periods too. These two are widely considered the most dominant players ever. Bisu is not at that level (not yet), I'll concede, but looking at his ability to win close series even from disadvantageous positions... that ability makes him dominant. He has that quality that they had. I've said this before--dominance cannot be measured by individual games. It's measured in series. We know people can luck wins in Starcraft with cheese. But put in a Bo3 or Bo5, its more likely the best player will win. Sure there are aberrations, like Bisu losing 0-2 to Flash in Daum, but look at his MSL results since his run started: Win vs. Light 2-1 Win vs. Ra 3-0 Win vs. Savior 3-0 Win vs. Hwasin 3-2 Win vs. GoRush 3-1 Win vs. Stork 3-2 Win vs. Hwasin 2-1 Those aren't easy opponents. I don't see how going 7-0 (19-7) against the Best PvP (twice), best PvZ, best PvT (arguable, twice) can be anything BUT dominant, taking into consideration what "dominant" means in the context of eSports. If that's not dominant what is? | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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[]Dlayer
United States15 Posts
On October 24 2007 01:33 Hot_Bid wrote: How did Bisu get lucky? And I don't see how you can say he's just "really good." He's definitely dominant and clearly the best, no other Protoss in history has won back to back, let alone 3 straight times. Bisu the most consistent Protoss winner since... I can't remember back when a toss was this dominant. Only one other Protoss has won an MSL out of the 14 or so MSLs there have been, and that was Ra back in 2003. No Protoss, in the OSL or MSL, has ever won a final against a Zerg, let alone 3-0 the best ZvP player of all time. But of course, we're all just "pretending" that he's dominant. What evidence do you have that he "isn't clearly the best"? You just sound like a hater. hater for sure. maybe an maestro fan. | ||
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.dragoon
United States749 Posts
It's true for OOv and true for Savior. For Bisu, while he's entertaining, it's wait and see how he does in OSL. | ||
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bine
United States2352 Posts
On October 24 2007 02:17 Hot_Bid wrote: Then its just your misuse of the word "dominant" in Starcraft progaming. In a competition where 60% winrate is considered astoundingly good, and back-to-back championships are only reserved for the absolute best of the best (savior, oov, nada like 5 years ago), I think it's safe to say that Bisu, in winning two straight MSLs and in good position for this one, is dominant. According to your standards of "nobody can touch him," nobody has EVER been dominant in professional BW. Savior won Shinhan3 and his first few MSLs with several 3-2 wins. Iloveoov lost series games during his crazy periods too. These two are widely considered the most dominant players ever. Bisu is not at that level (not yet), I'll concede, but looking at his ability to win close series even from disadvantageous positions... that ability makes him dominant. He has that quality that they had. I've said this before--dominance cannot be measured by individual games. It's measured in series. We know people can luck wins in Starcraft with cheese. But put in a Bo3 or Bo5, its more likely the best player will win. Sure there are aberrations, like Bisu losing 0-2 to Flash in Daum, but look at his MSL results since his run started: Win vs. Light 2-1 Win vs. Ra 3-0 Win vs. Savior 3-0 Win vs. Hwasin 3-2 Win vs. GoRush 3-1 Win vs. Stork 3-2 Win vs. Hwasin 2-1 Those aren't easy opponents. I don't see how going 7-0 (19-7) against the Best PvP (twice), best PvZ, best PvT (arguable, twice) can be anything BUT dominant, taking into consideration what "dominant" means in the context of eSports. If that's not dominant what is? He does well at home, that's for sure. If your point is that he's dominated the MSL, can't argue with you. But as you said, within any context we have to understand dominance relative to other players. Again, I understand if it's really tough to hold good percentages against other players all the time. But that's what's great about the ELO system, right? We can quantify those things. Surely I don't expect a dominant player to win all the time. But again, however hard it is to win in general (ie. not just the MSL), there are 4 people doing it better than him, clearly. I just don't understand how you're getting from 2 MSL wins in a row to DEFINITELY THE BEST PLAYER AT THE MOMENT DOMINANCE!!!! Bisu's strength is in mental fucking around with people. That's how he beats Savior, that's how he beats Hwasin. And again, look at those series, most are not "dominant" wins. His dominant moment was against Savior. He's obviously S Class. But it's not the same as it was with oov or savior, at least in how I remember it. There was this sense that any loss was just part of statistics, and it was always SUPER close. I'm not even arguing that that can't happen with Bisu. Maybe he'll win this MSL and this OSL and completely cement his dominance. But right now, he hasn't shown to be dominant anywhere except the MSL. And let's skip all the dismissive labeling. I'm not a hater any more than anyone else is a fanboy. We just disagree. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
During Savior's dominant run in 2005-2006 he never even qualified for OSL until Shinhan3, and even then he was winning every series 3-2 or 2-1, even against guys like Bifrost. He was something like 14-9, not a far cry from 8-7. The problem with ELO analysis (Bisu vs. Iloveoov) is that back then there was nowhere near as many Proleague games required of players. A better analysis would be to look at Bisu's ELO solely in OSL and MSL games, and compare that to Iloveoov's. It's simply unfair to expect Bisu to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague and expect him to compete with guys in Proleague that practice all week just for their match vs him. Iloveoov didn't have to face that. Plus, I don't think the stats are really that different. I don't think you looked close enough at how many times Oov lost during his "dominance." I'm in no way dismissing how dominant Oov or Savior were during their respective times. I'm saying your view of them is skewed. What they did is not that different than what Bisu is now. I'm simply saying that Bisu is close to that level. You are saying that he's lucky, and people are "pretending" that he's dominant. Then you come back and say, well, in the MSL, he IS dominant. Well hello, MSL is 50% of the individual leagues, and 100% of the basis of Savior's dominance (his OSL win came when he LOST 0-3 in the MSL... by your own definition... not dominant). Oov's dominance came during a period when there was no proleague, so MSL was a large portion of evaluating his dominance too. Again, all I'm saying is that Bisu is close to the dominance level that Savior and possibly Oov have shown. You are saying he's not even close, that he's a pretender and just lucky. You backtracked a little from your original statement, but it's still there. While neither of us may be exactly right, it's pretty clear your opinion is farther from the truth. Edit: if you want more evidence look at the way the korean scene views him... the intros of both leagues are showing him prominently like a bonjwa. Remember--my claim was that he's just close to Savior/Oov level. You can't concede that he's close to that level? | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
OSL/MSL only, I'd suspect their records are very similar. ELO is different, of course, because of Proleague, but again I have outlined that this is a handicap that only disadvantages Bisu. I think you still misinterpret what "dominance" truly means relevant to the Korean progaming scene. Not that I fault you for this, a lot of people, through nostalgia and overhype or whatever, have inflated views of past champions. You tend to forget their losses and only remember their wins. But in the case of Bisu, it's not "luck," it's not "pretend" as you say. Bisu is definitely close. He's almost there. | ||
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.dragoon
United States749 Posts
Therefore, it's actually helpful to have a string of single-elimination wins and several close-call best-of series, 3-1 / 3-2 for example. To be dominant is to convince the majority of the people that you've overcome their favorite player (whoever it is) having walked on a razor's edge and gone to the greatest possible length to achieve it. That twist is what is able to conquer a certain petty favoritism that most if not all of us have for particular players/styles/player races. Essentially you run the gamut - trouncing lesser players and taking on players of a steadily rising caliber, and on each occasion the dominant player steps up his own play as well. | ||
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bine
United States2352 Posts
This is the statement I disagree with, and clearly both of us have pulled back from the toughness of our original assertions. I apologize for my exaggerated use of those two words. Obviously you know way more about progaming than I do. I don't think there's a sense of fear surrounding bisu that's akin to the feelings that surrounded oov or savior, but again, you know more about all this than me so you're probably right. But looking at this: Third: 2007 WCG Korea Finals Runner-Up: 2007 Shinhan Bank OnGameNet Masters Winner: 2006-2007 3rd ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague Runner-Up: 2006-2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 1 Winner: 2006 Pringles MBCGame StarLeague Season 2 Winner: 2006 Pringles MBCGame StarLeague Season 1 Runner-Up: 2005-2006 CYON MBCGame StarLeague Winner: 2005 UZOO MBCGame StarLeague or this Winner: 2006 WCG Korean Representative Selection Winner: 2005 ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague Third: 2005-2006 CYON MBCGame StarLeague Third: 2005 So1 OnGameNet StarLeague Winner: 2004 EVER OnGameNet StarLeague Winner: 2004 SPRIS MBCGame StarLeague Third: 2004 Gillette OnGameNet Starleague Runner-Up: 2004 iTV Ranking 7th League Winner: 2004 HanaFOS CEN Game MBCGame Starleague Winner: 2003 2nd TGSambo (TriGem) MBCGame Starleague is just way crazier than this: Winner: 2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 2 Winner: 2006-2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 1 Again, what we're talking about here is a sense, right? You have the sense that he's dominant, I don't. You're more of an expert, so if I had no information I would probably believe you. But me getting frustrated with the ubiquity of people (not you, obviously) blankly following the belief that he's already enthroned as an oov or a savior doesn't mean that I'm just a hater or whatever. Even you concede that he's just "close". And again, I'm not saying that ELO is the end all be all. But in spite of that, there are still FOUR players ahead of him in that. He was only KesPa #1 for like a month. All I'm saying is that he isn't WAY better than Stork or Savior or Hwasin. Even though he might have a mental edge vs. a couple of them, they are all really strong, and there isn't a sense that Bisu is way better than them. Their skill is not formed in relation to him like it was during Savior; back then, how good you were largely depended on how well you could do against Savior. Terrans were gods if they could go 3-2 against him. That's just not true here. No one had a strong sense that Bisu was going to trash Hwasin. Really though, this is all subjective in my view. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
This is true. He's the best player right now, he consistently beats the best Terran at the moment (Hwasin) beat the second and third best tosses (Stork and Ra) and the best Zerg (Savior). There's nobody you'd take over Bisu in a bo5 right now. You can argue that some people have a good chance against him, but they are not the favorite. He definitely IS dominant. I concede he's not "oov or savior dominant" (he's close) but he is dominant. He's the most dominant Protoss in the history of Starcraft. Maybe there's an argument for Ra during the horrifically imbalanced Paradoxxx era, but I really don't think so. If you compare everyone to Oov and Savior, NOBODY is dominant other than those two. As to the other points... First, let's assume that ProGaming now is way more competitive than it is then. I think we can all make the assumption that it's harder to pull off 7-0 over two seasons of MSL now than back when Oov was doing it. Second, OF COURSE Oov's achievements look more impressive when you take a span of 4 years (oov) or 2 years (savior) vs 10 months (bisu). A better judgment would be to take Oov's achievements over a year (or 10 months, if you want to be really strict) and see what they are. Bisu has a HERO Proleague win, and two MSL wins, and the year isn't even over. If you want to compare careers, wait until Bisu has played four years. You said that we aren't comparing success--we're comparing dominance over a certain period of time. I am really surprised that you would even consider comparing 4 years of achievements to 10 months. Given the heightened difficulty of current Progaming and winrates in Progaming in general, Bisu has been dominant in the past 9-10 months. This dominance has been close, and comparable, to the level of dominance Savior showed in 2005 (they both only dominated one league). It's not yet at Oov level, but again, it's close enough to be compared. He is quite clearly the best player right now. Thus my statement (the one you disagree with) still holds. I haven't pulled back from that statement at all. | ||
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bine
United States2352 Posts
I think we both think mostly the same things we just disagree about whether or not they constitute dominance, so this is mostly a semantic argument. In the way you mean it, he's dominant. In the way I mean it, he isn't. So let's just leave it at that. | ||
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