My name is Michael. I go by Oxy, or Oxygen, or o]O2[o on most BW sites. I have not played StarCraft seriously in over two years, and at my peak I was mediocre at best. I mostly followed the foreign scene and I knew little of the Korean pro leagues, rarely watching VODs or reading up on Starleagues.
As I remember, periods of domination by players like Boxer and Nada lasted much longer than they do now, by players like Savior or Bisu. This is because we are nearing perfection in the game and the skill gaps between players are much, much smaller than before.
Games were still very interesting to me back then because of the leniency a player like Boxer could give himself in games, allowing him to pull cute, effective, crowd-pleasing moves. This lasted for a while, but I eventually lost interest because of the general similarity between games. I have not cared about progaming for the past five years... until now.
We are at a very special point in time. StarCraft 2 has been announced, and hopefully we'll have a whole new eSport to sacrifice our social lives for. Until then, we have a brief state of a near Nash equilibrium in StarCraft; near perfect games. And right now, the best place to look for these games is the MSL Ro16, and the perfect example is the set between Hwasin and Bisu.
For the unaware, Bisu and Hwasin have rivalry between them. Ken wrote about that in one of his recent articles (here). Their set meant a lot, and it showed. The second game was almost flawless, and the third game - the only one I'm going to talk about - epitomizes something no other player currently has in the amounts Bisu does.
This is the third game of the set. Bisu won the second game making the score 1-1, so this is the tiebreaker.
The map is Zodiac. Bisu starts off at 3 and Hwasin takes 6. While the early stages of the second game were very aggressive, both players simply scout this time around. Bisu scouts Hwasin last and does not manage to get inside his base because of marines chillin' on the ramp. Hwasin, on the other hand, scouted Bisu first and successfully snooped around his base. His SCV saw Bisu getting goon range and it died shortly after. Three seconds later, Bisu has cancelled the upgrade in his cybernetics core and puts down a second gate and citadel. The commentators mutter something about "dark templorehhh" and soon enough, we see a templar archives and robotics.
When I saw it, I figured that Bisu was going DTs because of the trickiness, that it might've been something he was planning on the spot. I didn't think he would have gone DTs if the SCV hadn't scouted around, because Hwasin had squeaky tight defense in the second game - Bisu had followed up with a reaver drop about ten minutes in and it did no damage. I assumed Bisu figured Hwasin would try to press any advantage he had and forgo an ebay and vults in exchange for better economy and more tanks, so DTs were a logical choice.
But Hwasin did not oblige. He knows Bisu well enough not to leave himself open to attack, because Bisu uses DTs often. He will find any hole in his defense and crack it wide open, so Hwasin carries his soap on a rope and builds an eBay while taking his natural; typical 1 fac-expo opening.
Bisu eventually drops his DTs at the edge of Hwasin's base and double expands in the meanwhile. He runs around a bit with them, goes to his mineral line, and finds he can't do any real damage because Hwasin's building placement is excellent and defense is there as always. He drops two more DTs and kills a turret and a machine shop, but is then left standing in the middle of Hwasin's base with nothing to do.
This is the worst situation possible I envisioned for Bisu when I saw him going DTs: he faces impenetrable defense, deals very little damage and is set back a ton. With the extremely close skill levels between these two players, I thought for sure this would spell the end for Bisu. Sure, it may be stretched out, but he will always be playing catch-up throughout the rest of the game.
The crowd focuses a bit longer on Hwasin's base and Bisu's meager attempts at maximizing his DTs' efficiency, but I'm wondering how the hell Bisu manages to survive for another twenty minutes; Hwasin has a sizeable army and scan, so he could theoretically begin to move out now.
Hwasin expectedly sends out a squad of vultures to harass one of Bisu's expansions with moderate success. He sends a remaining vulture to find Bisu's second expansion at 12. Then, Bisu sends some forces to the middle, dispatches the vulture at 12 with a lone zealot, and then sits outside Hwasin's base with an army half the Terran's size.
And then it hits me: Bisu had this opening planned along. He never DT dropped because he thought he could gain a large early economical advantage early on, nor did he double expand because he thought he would secure that advantage. Bisu is relying purely on his ability to control the flow of the game. He is dominating Hwasin so subtly, so implicitly, that Hwasin almost doesn't realize it. But it's there.
Hwasin is afraid to leave his base because of Bisu's ability to dismantle Terran forces, something he showed off several times in game 2.
When I first started playing PvT about three years ago, I had a few friends of mine teach me the general idea of the matchup. I remember that in battles of equal supply between Toss and Terran, I always lost as Toss. I asked a friend about this:
- How the hell am I supposed to take down a push like that? The tanks are always spread out so well and I only end up killing half his army. - Dude, you're not supposed to kill everything. You max to 200/200, run in, take down what you can, and then you rebuild your army from your fifteen gates. - What the hell, why? - Because that's just how Toss works.
Obviously, the game was much different three years ago and on a skill level that doesn't even compare, but the idea has stayed with me all the same. Bisu has changed that. No one, not even Reach has the ability to piss all over a tank/vult army without advanced tech like Bisu can. It would be suicide for some people to pick the fights Bisu does, but then again, those 'some people' aren't Bisu, and Hwasin is very aware of this. Hwasin doesn't want to get demolished; Hwasin is scared shitless.
However much Bisu may be controlling the game, he still is subject to laws of physics (for the time being). It is no surprise, then, that Hwasin notices Bisu is overextending himself, and begins to tear a hole in Bisu's impenetrable psyche.
Or at least, he tries to. He has the army, he has the positioning. But Bisu is a fucking leprechaun - he pulls shit out of his ass and rips Hwasin a new one out of nowhere. I have re-watched the battle about a dozen times now and I still can't figure out how he did it.
This is what I was talking about. Bisu is BISU. He is a crackhead monster on steroids. This battle is at the 16th minute of the H set3 VOD in this (link), and yes, you should download a 160mb video just to see this battle.
During this time, Bisu has built three stargates and begins to pump carriers. He has also denied Hwasin an expansion about three times now, but after the battle I just talked about, Hwasin finally manages to secure it with some tanks for defense.
I realize I seem to be putting down Hwasin a lot this game, but he isn't bad; he is a formidable player. An excellent example of his technical skill and precision is his reaction to some DT harass at his newly secured expansion: Bisu sends in two DTs to kill some SCVs, but notices a comsat and two goliaths. He decides to take care of the goliaths first so that he may rape and pillage freely. However, as he approaches the two goliaths, he notices some tanks, so he pulls back - but not before one of his DTs swipes a goliath once. Hwasin's scan is near-instant; the tank fires a shot at the DTs, and the goliaths volley off some rockets to an overhead observer. So, Bisu is not dominating this game because Hwasin is a poor player - Bisu isn't even actually dominating. But he controls; up until now, the tide of battle ebbs to his will, and to his will alone.
But once again, Hwasin has not been the predicted winner of this match for no reason. He catches on soon enough and launches a massive assault on Bisu's 12 main and nat with a huge tank/vult/goliath force with 1/1 grades. Bisu does not have the army to sustain the attack.
Bisu's 12 main is steamrolled, carriers are chased off, and a small force he sent down to one of Hwasin's expansions is dealt with. Captain Crackhead looks to be in very bad shape. The game no longer seems to be in the palm of his hand; he has lost control - or so it seems.
His resolution is so simple, so obvious, yet amazingly effective. Hwasin even HAS all the forces necessary to deal with Bisu's carriers and developing ground army, but Bisu's play is so fluid and eloquent that it leaves no holes for Hwasin to punch through. High templars are added to the Protoss army to destroy goliaths, and Bisu reverses the entire game in one quick swipe; Terran is now on the defensive.
The VOD shows us that all of Hwasin's expansions have been mined out or leveled, and Bisu makes us feel as though we were ridiculous for thinking he might lose. His win is so definite, it seems impossible that just a second ago Hwasin could've felt in control, or at least, at an advantage. Indeed, Hwasin remains at his seat, shell-shocked at what just happened. I don't think he was aware of the wrath Bisu could infer on him with such ease, such control. He might as well have stepped out of his booth, walked over to Hwasin's, and physically taken the game back. That's what it looked like, anyway.
I have never had a favorite player; I always liked to root for the underdog, and never really liked the most dominating player on the scene. Bisu has changed that for me. He has so much flair that I can't help liking him. While it is wholly possible he doesn't win the MSL, I hope he rapes the living shit out of everyone in his path.
i loved this series both are favorite players of mine, its just sad to see one of them go so early in this msl ㅠ.ㅠ whateva i knew that the one who won this match would win msl bisu for GOMTV 3 gogo
Hwasin's biggest mistake IMO was, after he razed 12, losing two control groups of goliaths to goon/carrier/storm. In the time that it took him to raze 12, Bisu had already built another army that was off-screen. They were about equal at that point. If Hwasin had waited for his army from the north to arrive before engaging, the outcome would have been much different.
featured thread please? that was an amazing read, a Final Edit worthy one, imo, Bisu truly is a genious, This play was almost as ingenious as Storks PvT vs NaDa, i read the live reports and was amazed, It's the one where i thought Stork went for a simple DT cheese rush, all in. Then he somehow mixes in the most vicious battle squad i have ever seen in my entire life, High templar abuse to the fullest, Shamed Bisu's templar use, Storm after storm he shamed event he Xmen, dismantled nada after the DT's literally did no Damage whatsoever, That's how you know a player controls the flow of the game to such a point, to be so in control at any point during the game, that you can only truly see is when it gives that misleading appearance of losing into utter dominace to the fullest extent of the imagination.
Nice write-up. :D Bisu's play is really impeccable. I was sure that he was losing both games 2 and 3, but then he just flips Hwasin on his ass and wins somehow. It didn't make sense, but it was sure as hell awesome.
Nice read, I almost stopped reading after the picture said bisu: GG and I was like huh? Wasnt this man just talking about how great Bisu was? Then I knew
Yeah, that third game was amazing. Hwasin takes out the base at 12, and I'm like "ooooh, if Bisu wants any chance of winning, he better do something within the next 30 seconds" and 30 seconds later I pee myself
Bisu has 8 gateways, 3 nexus, billion probes, two shuttles and observatory.
He also has no troops, but as Oxy pointed out, he does have the control of the flow, so Hwasin can't move out in the right time to take advantage of the lack of troops.
Hot_Bid pointed out that maybe if hwasin scouted the third nex and moved out 30 seconds earlier, Hwasin would have won. Maybe Midas would have just moved out without scouting the nex at 12, relying on his instinct.
Either way, just an incredible control of the game by Bisu
Bisu's army position during the last battle was fucking flawless
He boldly stood mid-map with an army that couldn't fight Hwasin's consolidated force, waiting for Hwasin to try and bring his new goliaths to his tanks. Bisu caught Hwasin with his pants down through impeccable positioning, and his perfect storms ensured that Hwasin couldn't just walk his goliaths away.
Beautiful game by Bisu, I was in awe of his prowess during both the second and third games of that series.
I think there are still players that can beat Bisu. Offcourse he is a great player which always finds gaps, but take for example KwanrO. He didn't have alot of ZvP so Bisu will not know his style very well, he can't analyze before the bo5 set. He will have to analyze ingame which is very hard.
Kwanro is new and has alot of passion. He still is the underdog :D!
Both games were absolutely awesome to watch live. Some fearless moves by the Bruce Lee Toss there, and Hwasin fought one hell of a game two. I sure as hell hope this becomes a major rivalry, because neither disappointed this time around.
I really liked the third game in the set because it really demonstrated thins about the pvt matchup that I have always believed should be true, but never seem to come to fruition - the biggest of these for me is that terran is slow but powerful whereas protoss is fast and adaptable - which is why I like protoss, and am always mortified when terran wins with a slow unstoppable, unimaginative push.
I think the last game showed it properly because hwasin had a huge attack but it was so far away from is own base that the counter attack was so swift and effective that terran has no time to reposition himself. my favourite moment was when the carriers of bisu leave their defense of the expansion early - when more damage could be done to the invading army in favour of a counter attack which is far more devastating, with the idea: "his whole army is here now, I can finish him off before he even gets back." however, I think hwasin would have won if he had pulled some of his arms back quicker, when it was clear that the top expansion was dead - he over committed.
to me, this is what sc should be - too much of the time it depends on single battles and jostleing for position with huge armies, and harassment. but this was more like a sacrifice in chess - or like overbalancing someone in a judo match using their own momentum against them.
After Bisu won the 2nd game so clearly even though his reaver did zero damage I was totally convinced he would take the series. I would have gg'ed just by looking at Bisu at the beginning of game 3. He just LOOKED invincible, it was scary.
During the game I never thought for a second Bisu could lose this. I think this is pretty much what the OP described. If you had looked at a still just before a battle, unit / supply count, upgrades etc you would have said, yea, sure, Terran's gonna win this. But watching the game it just felt to me like Bisu was totally dominating the game, even at the OMG that's all Bisu's got moment.
As far as beating Bisu is concerned: It will take a player as close to perfection as Bisu is. After this series, I don't see any player who could achieve this in the near future.
Imho Hwasin lost it when he decided to "just" vult harrass after properly defending vs the DT drops. Had he done a timing push ASAP Bisu would have had a really hard time defending, and -at least- couldn't have gone carriers.
But Hwasin hardly ever does any timing attack at all. :/
It was so amazing when Bisu engaged Hwasins superior army many times and he managed to kill more than he should have. It is so hard to believe. One thing I noticed when watching that game live. Bisu is not even aware of the size of Hwasins army, he first pulls his guys back, but then like he said to himself fuck it. He engages in the fight and yet somehow kills good amount of terran force. This guy (Bisu) is so confident in his skill, macro and micro. Amazing player to watch.
Bisu reminds me much of Ra at the peak of his carer. I still remember how Ra could (greatly outnumbered) just obliterate NaDa`s army. Ra could do so much damage with so little units thanks to his great micro. It makes you think no one else than Ra could have done that. Bisu does the same thing.
Steve is so right. I forgot to mention Bisu's AMAZING positioning in that last minute. Had Hwasin been able to properly flank and consolidate his forces in proper position in the middle, Bisu would've been so fucked.
On October 22 2007 10:55 Oxygen wrote: I have never had a favorite player; I always liked to root for the underdog, and never really liked the most dominating player on the scene. Bisu has changed that for me. He has so much flair that I can't help liking him.
On October 22 2007 17:19 PoP wrote: Imho Hwasin lost it when he decided to "just" vult harrass after properly defending vs the DT drops. Had he done a timing push ASAP Bisu would have had a really hard time defending, and -at least- couldn't have gone carriers.
But Hwasin hardly ever does any timing attack at all. :/
Yes, that's what I thought too. Bisu actually took a big gamble there. After his DT drop did almost no damage, he immediately expanded 2 times. Hwasin didn't attack until much later. This means Bisu was able to get back into the game (he obviously was at a disadvantage by going fast DT drop against strong DT defense).
Well that's the problem with Hwasin's highly precise play. It's highly precise because that's what he ALWAYS does. I'm not saying he should cheese now and then, but one who's seen many of his VODs will most likely be able to feel Hwasin's moves. Not like Bisu, of course, but one will have a general idea of what he'll do next. He always pushes when he has a certain number of tanks and a certain number of vults, with little variations. He never goes anything other than 1 fact expand, which is just a shame because if you look at his unit control early game it's horrifying. I bet that if this guy would go 2 fact (or even 3) in TvP he could take down A LOT of players in less than 10 minutes. Especially since everyone is expecting 1-fact-expo.
I didn't like Hwasin that much, because he's too predictable, but his unit controll is extremely good... too bad he's really predictable.
On October 22 2007 18:21 Red_Dragon wrote: It was so amazing when Bisu engaged Hwasins superior army many times and he managed to kill more than he should have. It is so hard to believe. One thing I noticed when watching that game live. Bisu is not even aware of the size of Hwasins army, he first pulls his guys back, but then like he said to himself fuck it. He engages in the fight and yet somehow kills good amount of terran force. This guy (Bisu) is so confident in his skill, macro and micro. Amazing player to watch.
Bisu reminds me much of Ra at the peak of his carer. I still remember how Ra could (greatly outnumbered) just obliterate NaDa`s army. Ra could do so much damage with so little units thanks to his great micro. It makes you think no one else than Ra could have done that. Bisu does the same thing.
yea. thats the scary thing. bisu doesnt really know what he's facing. quite a few times he attacks, back it up, then just all in attacks and creates a big dent in hwasin's army... magically. the guy has fucking balls of steel picking the fights he does then a fucking absolute zero cool mind to execute the micro to create as much havoc as possible.
Bisu would always catch Hwasin's tanks exposed without a vulture buffer, which is why he gets away with more kills than he should. It's impeccable timing for sure, but it ain't no sorcery.
he'd always catch the opponent's army at the perfect time with no margin for error while macroing perfectly.
of course you can always explain how someone made an amazing play. "he made more units than the other guy and his units were in better position." this doesn't somehow diminish the fact that he did it.
Bisu, and maybe Stork, are the only two protosses in the world capable of pulling off those two games (12v3 python with equal bases and lower worker count in game 2, low-damage dt drop and equal bases in game 3).
if this isn't amazing, what is?
can you even name a PvT display that was more impressive?
On October 23 2007 04:32 Hot_Bid wrote: pshhhh bisu doesn't adapt to zergs
zergs try to adapt to bisu... and fail
qft
PS: Thanks for the very nice writeup Michael aka Oxy, or Oxygen, or o]O2[o. Looking forward to your next one (bisu vs. kwanro maybe? :D ) and your next one (bisu vs. nal_ra maybe? :D ) and the final (bisu vs. savior maybe? :D ) - i know some of you know what i did here
I was more "impressed" with Game 1 EVER 2004 OSL semifinals iloveoov vs Reach on Mercury.
Nobody thought iloveoov could lose a macro war to Protoss.
Let alone on Mercury.
But it did happen.
That's irrelevant though, considering we're discussing this MSL, not some 3-year-ago OSL. On the third game - there are so many "ifs". if HwaSin had moved out earlier. If HwaSin hadn't fucked up his defensive micro in defending BiSu's hanbang at the end. If if if.
The ifs are what separates a champion from a perennial almost-there. HwaSin just misses those ifs, while BiSu will generally clinch every opportunity granted. It's why he wins. I do not like BiSu, but I respect his uncanny ability to win in seemingly hopeless situations.
I did want HwaSin to win, and felt he had overall more solid play. But what I love about BW is that games are so easily reversed - you can play better for 15 out of 16 minutes, but lose it all in that last minute. Both players had a fighting chance throughout. Even at this highest level of competition, there is still possibility to come back.
Mirrors are the exception. Fortunately, this was not a mirror.
It really says something about the specialness of this series that you have to recall that iloveoov-Reach mercury game to find one that tops this one. Just saying this series, though it was the Ro16, has a place in history because of how amazing the final two games were on Bisu's part. It truly was a very memorable display of PvT skill. Bisu has proven, and hopefully will continue to prove, that he's capable of beating the best in every matchup.
Eh. I'm sure there are other "better" series. Skill-wise, perhaps not. Skill progresses as time goes on; therefore later series will generally have higher skill levels than earlier ones. I am judging by relative level compared to the timeframe in which the series was played. This one is up there, for sure, but I reckon these matches to be more dramatic [best game in brackets]:
Reach/BoxeR SKY 2002 [Neo Forbidden Zone]: Everyone really, really loves game 4. Game 1 is pretty popular too, I guess. Nowadays you look at it and the mistakes show - big, glaring errors. But five years ago, those shuttle storm-drops were just so wonderfully amazing. They still are.
iloveoov/Reach EVER 2004 [Mercury Set 1]: Previously mentioned reason. Taking on iloveoov during his bonjwa period in a macro war on a bad map and coming out on top. Closely fought 5-game series in one of the best OSLs ever.
Reach/iloveoov UZOO 2005 [Luna? Neo Requiem? I'm conflicted on this one, actually]: OK, so the Requiem game had just classic zealot/DT bombing. The Luna game.. well, that one is just crazy. Reach just takes on the giant Maginot line of tank/turret/mine/vulture head on. Despite the 3-0 score, iloveoov did not play badly either - crazy macro, as usual.
BoxeR/PuSan So1 2005 [Ride of Valkyries]: Coming from 0-2 down to win 3-2? In that game 3 situation? I still can't believe BoxeR won that game. Completely failed proxy BBS with absolutely zero damage. While you might attribute it to imperfections in PuSan's game, those micro feats that BoxeR pulled off facing elimination.. just crazy.
AnyTime/BoxeR So1 2005 [Ride of Valkyries Set 1]: A really good SL final. Good back and forth games. Game 1 was especially good. Those mines... ahhh. Game 4's mines were wonderful as well. Another 0-2, but no complete comeback this time. Unfortunate, really.
This is by no means an exhaustive list. Just the most memorable for me
Maybe it's just that a Bo3 doesn't have the same glory as a Bo5. The comeback from 0-1 to 2-1 is not as great as 0-2 to 3-2. Maybe it's the lower stakes - Ro16 as opposed to Semis/Finals.
Whatever the reason, these games, despite the extreme level of skill shown, will impact the game's history less. Only game 3 had any "close" feeling. 1 and 2 were honestly quite one-sided.
So then, just going by a single game - game 3 - then perhaps it can compete more solidly. Just judging by a single game and not the quality of the series overall, game 3 of this Bisu/HwaSin series fares much better. The number of single games that eclipse it.. very few.
What a game! o_O It is such a pleasure to see the rising of mobility taking over positionning. It's so impressive how terran look helpless after those games of smart and swift moves. I mean look at hwasin face he seems so astonished, except may be the clustered goliath under psy storm what else could have he done? Well yeah he could have moved earlier may be, but hell at that very moment he had all the reasons to be confident. Against anyone else he would have roll over the map and over the game. Someway it's hard to believe it happened. I feel sorry for him, after stork incredible early games in wcg he falls for awesome end game against another toss. (and hell I don't usually like terrans much) Still he is such a great player.
EDIT: Ho and the analysis just emphasized the pleasure I had with this game. And it will greatly contribute to the pleasure I'll have watching it again >
I don't think anyone is saying this was the most exciting PvT anyone's ever seen, just that it was near-perfect micro, macro, and good strategy in general. Of course skill progresses as time goes on, but it progresses less and less. The skill jump in the three years after StarCraft was released was much greater than the skill jump in the past three years, because we haev less to discover and perfect - obviously. My point is that we're approaching a time where we see perfect execution in a lot of aspects of some games, and this series is a prime example of this perfection.
On October 24 2007 01:23 bine wrote: arrogant + lucky = no thanks
I wouldn't dislike bisu if there weren't so many people pretending that he's dominant. He's really good, OK. But he isn't clearly the best.
How did Bisu get lucky?
And I don't see how you can say he's just "really good."
He's definitely dominant and clearly the best, no other Protoss in history has won back to back, let alone 3 straight times. Bisu the most consistent Protoss winner since... I can't remember back when a toss was this dominant.
Only one other Protoss has won an MSL out of the 14 or so MSLs there have been, and that was Ra back in 2003. No Protoss, in the OSL or MSL, has ever won a final against a Zerg, let alone 3-0 the best ZvP player of all time.
But of course, we're all just "pretending" that he's dominant. What evidence do you have that he "isn't clearly the best"?
I never said he wasn't the most successful protoss or something, you can have that designation all you want.
When someone is dominant it suggests that no one can touch him. In his last 15 games, he's 8-7, losing to oov, light, luxury among others. He's fifth in ELO. There are a handful of players that have decent odds against him, despite the fact that he has been doing really well in MSLs. Even though Bisu won convincingly, the Hwasin games were very close (not dominant) and the battles he won were sort of "inexplicable" by all accounts, which to me suggests luck as opposed to some sort of innate magical power that rearranged the programming of the game. Obviously there are a million factors at work, and my invocation of luck was meant to be a sensational counter to all of the claims of like "champion blood" and "fighting spirit" and all that other carlodajinesque bullshit getting thrown around about Bisu. He's overhyped. That's it.
He's famous for beating Savior in such a dramatic fashion. That was crazy, and I can't believe he did it, blah blah blah. But again just look at the ELO. Obviously it's not perfect, but there are four people who presently are beating harder players than he is more consistently.
On October 22 2007 22:42 CubEdIn wrote: Well that's the problem with Hwasin's highly precise play. It's highly precise because that's what he ALWAYS does. I'm not saying he should cheese now and then, but one who's seen many of his VODs will most likely be able to feel Hwasin's moves. Not like Bisu, of course, but one will have a general idea of what he'll do next. He always pushes when he has a certain number of tanks and a certain number of vults, with little variations. He never goes anything other than 1 fact expand, which is just a shame because if you look at his unit control early game it's horrifying. I bet that if this guy would go 2 fact (or even 3) in TvP he could take down A LOT of players in less than 10 minutes. Especially since everyone is expecting 1-fact-expo.
I didn't like Hwasin that much, because he's too predictable, but his unit controll is extremely good... too bad he's really predictable.
Well, If I'm not wrong, remember
Savior's dominance reign? Savior always went 3 hatch, muta switched into lurker, swarm rape? very predictabe right, nobody could stop that force and the highly gosu precision. Isn't it scary to play against someone that you know what they are going to do for a fact but you know you still can't beat it? I feel like
HwaSin is right now #1 Terran on earth. His game is so perfect we shoud start calling him Perfect Terran 2007. Remember when he fucked savior with a beatiful extremely precise timing back in the group stage of msl sl1. After this I looked at hwasin and said holly shit this kid has got something in him and he did. HwaSin's game improves so much you notice the different in each game he plays, hopefully he will keep on doing good.
And about 3rd game on Zodiac, seriously man How the fuck did
Bisu won that shit? I'm amazed at how quick and effective bisu can be. Like someone was saying on an earlier note "Bisu better do something within the next 30 seconds" 30 seconds later both of hwasin's expansion plus army is gone and Bisu has an island expansion GG!!!! I was like :O cheat? Bisu is way too good. Bisu can pull out whatever the fuck he wants out of his ass: early rush, cheese, super cheese, risky builds, macro like iloveoov, micro... Bisu is imba ;p ( I can't believe Testie took a game out of him, Gosu testie ^_^ )
Then its just your misuse of the word "dominant" in Starcraft progaming. In a competition where 60% winrate is considered astoundingly good, and back-to-back championships are only reserved for the absolute best of the best (savior, oov, nada like 5 years ago), I think it's safe to say that Bisu, in winning two straight MSLs and in good position for this one, is dominant.
According to your standards of "nobody can touch him," nobody has EVER been dominant in professional BW. Savior won Shinhan3 and his first few MSLs with several 3-2 wins. Iloveoov lost series games during his crazy periods too. These two are widely considered the most dominant players ever. Bisu is not at that level (not yet), I'll concede, but looking at his ability to win close series even from disadvantageous positions... that ability makes him dominant. He has that quality that they had.
I've said this before--dominance cannot be measured by individual games. It's measured in series. We know people can luck wins in Starcraft with cheese. But put in a Bo3 or Bo5, its more likely the best player will win. Sure there are aberrations, like Bisu losing 0-2 to Flash in Daum, but look at his MSL results since his run started:
Win vs. Light 2-1 Win vs. Ra 3-0 Win vs. Savior 3-0 Win vs. Hwasin 3-2 Win vs. GoRush 3-1 Win vs. Stork 3-2 Win vs. Hwasin 2-1
Those aren't easy opponents. I don't see how going 7-0 (19-7) against the Best PvP (twice), best PvZ, best PvT (arguable, twice) can be anything BUT dominant, taking into consideration what "dominant" means in the context of eSports.
On October 24 2007 01:23 bine wrote: arrogant + lucky = no thanks
I wouldn't dislike bisu if there weren't so many people pretending that he's dominant. He's really good, OK. But he isn't clearly the best.
How did Bisu get lucky?
And I don't see how you can say he's just "really good."
He's definitely dominant and clearly the best, no other Protoss in history has won back to back, let alone 3 straight times. Bisu the most consistent Protoss winner since... I can't remember back when a toss was this dominant.
Only one other Protoss has won an MSL out of the 14 or so MSLs there have been, and that was Ra back in 2003. No Protoss, in the OSL or MSL, has ever won a final against a Zerg, let alone 3-0 the best ZvP player of all time.
But of course, we're all just "pretending" that he's dominant. What evidence do you have that he "isn't clearly the best"?
Dominant is undisputed, beyond any such shadow of a doubt. It doesn't mean you don't lose, but at a given moment as the going gets tougher and the stakes are higher than ever, you win and you entertain. That's dominant.
It's true for OOv and true for Savior. For Bisu, while he's entertaining, it's wait and see how he does in OSL.
On October 24 2007 02:17 Hot_Bid wrote: Then its just your misuse of the word "dominant" in Starcraft progaming. In a competition where 60% winrate is considered astoundingly good, and back-to-back championships are only reserved for the absolute best of the best (savior, oov, nada like 5 years ago), I think it's safe to say that Bisu, in winning two straight MSLs and in good position for this one, is dominant.
According to your standards of "nobody can touch him," nobody has EVER been dominant in professional BW. Savior won Shinhan3 and his first few MSLs with several 3-2 wins. Iloveoov lost series games during his crazy periods too. These two are widely considered the most dominant players ever. Bisu is not at that level (not yet), I'll concede, but looking at his ability to win close series even from disadvantageous positions... that ability makes him dominant. He has that quality that they had.
I've said this before--dominance cannot be measured by individual games. It's measured in series. We know people can luck wins in Starcraft with cheese. But put in a Bo3 or Bo5, its more likely the best player will win. Sure there are aberrations, like Bisu losing 0-2 to Flash in Daum, but look at his MSL results since his run started:
Win vs. Light 2-1 Win vs. Ra 3-0 Win vs. Savior 3-0 Win vs. Hwasin 3-2 Win vs. GoRush 3-1 Win vs. Stork 3-2 Win vs. Hwasin 2-1
Those aren't easy opponents. I don't see how going 7-0 (19-7) against the Best PvP (twice), best PvZ, best PvT (arguable, twice) can be anything BUT dominant, taking into consideration what "dominant" means in the context of eSports.
If that's not dominant what is?
He does well at home, that's for sure. If your point is that he's dominated the MSL, can't argue with you. But as you said, within any context we have to understand dominance relative to other players. Again, I understand if it's really tough to hold good percentages against other players all the time. But that's what's great about the ELO system, right? We can quantify those things. Surely I don't expect a dominant player to win all the time. But again, however hard it is to win in general (ie. not just the MSL), there are 4 people doing it better than him, clearly.
I just don't understand how you're getting from 2 MSL wins in a row to DEFINITELY THE BEST PLAYER AT THE MOMENT DOMINANCE!!!!
Bisu's strength is in mental fucking around with people. That's how he beats Savior, that's how he beats Hwasin. And again, look at those series, most are not "dominant" wins. His dominant moment was against Savior. He's obviously S Class. But it's not the same as it was with oov or savior, at least in how I remember it. There was this sense that any loss was just part of statistics, and it was always SUPER close.
I'm not even arguing that that can't happen with Bisu. Maybe he'll win this MSL and this OSL and completely cement his dominance. But right now, he hasn't shown to be dominant anywhere except the MSL.
And let's skip all the dismissive labeling. I'm not a hater any more than anyone else is a fanboy. We just disagree.
During iloveoov's dominant run in 2004 (his ELO peak was in July), in 2004 Spris MSL he won 3-2 vs Kingdom and 2-1 vs Ra. In 2004 EVER OSL iloveoov won 3-2 vs Reach and 3-2 vs Boxer. He actually LOST 3-1 to July during this period. Other series include 1-3 loss vs July in Gillette, 2-3 loss to Silent Control. There were of course many wins, but you have to factor in that there was no Proleague for him to practice for. That said, even during his dominance periods Iloveoov had stretches of 15 games where he was 8-7 or worse.
During Savior's dominant run in 2005-2006 he never even qualified for OSL until Shinhan3, and even then he was winning every series 3-2 or 2-1, even against guys like Bifrost. He was something like 14-9, not a far cry from 8-7.
The problem with ELO analysis (Bisu vs. Iloveoov) is that back then there was nowhere near as many Proleague games required of players. A better analysis would be to look at Bisu's ELO solely in OSL and MSL games, and compare that to Iloveoov's. It's simply unfair to expect Bisu to practice for OSL, MSL and Proleague and expect him to compete with guys in Proleague that practice all week just for their match vs him. Iloveoov didn't have to face that.
Plus, I don't think the stats are really that different. I don't think you looked close enough at how many times Oov lost during his "dominance."
I'm in no way dismissing how dominant Oov or Savior were during their respective times. I'm saying your view of them is skewed. What they did is not that different than what Bisu is now.
I'm simply saying that Bisu is close to that level.
You are saying that he's lucky, and people are "pretending" that he's dominant. Then you come back and say, well, in the MSL, he IS dominant. Well hello, MSL is 50% of the individual leagues, and 100% of the basis of Savior's dominance (his OSL win came when he LOST 0-3 in the MSL... by your own definition... not dominant).
Oov's dominance came during a period when there was no proleague, so MSL was a large portion of evaluating his dominance too.
Again, all I'm saying is that Bisu is close to the dominance level that Savior and possibly Oov have shown. You are saying he's not even close, that he's a pretender and just lucky. You backtracked a little from your original statement, but it's still there.
While neither of us may be exactly right, it's pretty clear your opinion is farther from the truth.
Edit: if you want more evidence look at the way the korean scene views him... the intros of both leagues are showing him prominently like a bonjwa. Remember--my claim was that he's just close to Savior/Oov level. You can't concede that he's close to that level?
If i had time i'd do a statistical comparison of Bisu's and Oov's records during their respective periods, excluding Proleague (because Oov had barely any PL games back then).
OSL/MSL only, I'd suspect their records are very similar. ELO is different, of course, because of Proleague, but again I have outlined that this is a handicap that only disadvantages Bisu.
I think you still misinterpret what "dominance" truly means relevant to the Korean progaming scene. Not that I fault you for this, a lot of people, through nostalgia and overhype or whatever, have inflated views of past champions. You tend to forget their losses and only remember their wins.
But in the case of Bisu, it's not "luck," it's not "pretend" as you say. Bisu is definitely close. He's almost there.
I think in this case dominant is a socially-constructed concept, much like an "expert" of a particular subject on a community-based wikipedia.
Therefore, it's actually helpful to have a string of single-elimination wins and several close-call best-of series, 3-1 / 3-2 for example. To be dominant is to convince the majority of the people that you've overcome their favorite player (whoever it is) having walked on a razor's edge and gone to the greatest possible length to achieve it. That twist is what is able to conquer a certain petty favoritism that most if not all of us have for particular players/styles/player races.
Essentially you run the gamut - trouncing lesser players and taking on players of a steadily rising caliber, and on each occasion the dominant player steps up his own play as well.
This is the statement I disagree with, and clearly both of us have pulled back from the toughness of our original assertions. I apologize for my exaggerated use of those two words. Obviously you know way more about progaming than I do. I don't think there's a sense of fear surrounding bisu that's akin to the feelings that surrounded oov or savior, but again, you know more about all this than me so you're probably right. But looking at this:
Third: 2007 WCG Korea Finals Runner-Up: 2007 Shinhan Bank OnGameNet Masters Winner: 2006-2007 3rd ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague Runner-Up: 2006-2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 1 Winner: 2006 Pringles MBCGame StarLeague Season 2 Winner: 2006 Pringles MBCGame StarLeague Season 1 Runner-Up: 2005-2006 CYON MBCGame StarLeague Winner: 2005 UZOO MBCGame StarLeague
Winner: 2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 2 Winner: 2006-2007 GOMTV MBCGame StarLeague Season 1
Again, what we're talking about here is a sense, right? You have the sense that he's dominant, I don't. You're more of an expert, so if I had no information I would probably believe you. But me getting frustrated with the ubiquity of people (not you, obviously) blankly following the belief that he's already enthroned as an oov or a savior doesn't mean that I'm just a hater or whatever. Even you concede that he's just "close". And again, I'm not saying that ELO is the end all be all. But in spite of that, there are still FOUR players ahead of him in that. He was only KesPa #1 for like a month.
All I'm saying is that he isn't WAY better than Stork or Savior or Hwasin. Even though he might have a mental edge vs. a couple of them, they are all really strong, and there isn't a sense that Bisu is way better than them. Their skill is not formed in relation to him like it was during Savior; back then, how good you were largely depended on how well you could do against Savior. Terrans were gods if they could go 3-2 against him. That's just not true here. No one had a strong sense that Bisu was going to trash Hwasin.
This is true. He's the best player right now, he consistently beats the best Terran at the moment (Hwasin) beat the second and third best tosses (Stork and Ra) and the best Zerg (Savior). There's nobody you'd take over Bisu in a bo5 right now. You can argue that some people have a good chance against him, but they are not the favorite.
He definitely IS dominant. I concede he's not "oov or savior dominant" (he's close) but he is dominant. He's the most dominant Protoss in the history of Starcraft. Maybe there's an argument for Ra during the horrifically imbalanced Paradoxxx era, but I really don't think so. If you compare everyone to Oov and Savior, NOBODY is dominant other than those two.
As to the other points...
First, let's assume that ProGaming now is way more competitive than it is then. I think we can all make the assumption that it's harder to pull off 7-0 over two seasons of MSL now than back when Oov was doing it.
Second, OF COURSE Oov's achievements look more impressive when you take a span of 4 years (oov) or 2 years (savior) vs 10 months (bisu).
A better judgment would be to take Oov's achievements over a year (or 10 months, if you want to be really strict) and see what they are.
Bisu has a HERO Proleague win, and two MSL wins, and the year isn't even over.
If you want to compare careers, wait until Bisu has played four years.
You said that we aren't comparing success--we're comparing dominance over a certain period of time. I am really surprised that you would even consider comparing 4 years of achievements to 10 months.
Given the heightened difficulty of current Progaming and winrates in Progaming in general, Bisu has been dominant in the past 9-10 months. This dominance has been close, and comparable, to the level of dominance Savior showed in 2005 (they both only dominated one league). It's not yet at Oov level, but again, it's close enough to be compared. He is quite clearly the best player right now.
Thus my statement (the one you disagree with) still holds. I haven't pulled back from that statement at all.
Like I said, it's a subjective feeling, and you're probably right, and all that. I just don't think he's scary in the same way, and he wasn't the clear favorite vs. Hwasin for example. Of course, he just beat him, so in retrospect it's like duh he's the favorite, but that just wasn't the perception. People weren't sure who was going to win that series. I for one wouldn't be SO sure that he would beat stork bo5 either. He probably would, but it's not like super obvious or something. And clearly he would fuck savior up, but I still think that isn't because he's better in terms of skill by a wide margin, but just because he has such a strong mental grip on him. I still acknowledge he's the strongest player at the moment. Just not by a huge margin and he's not super scary in the same way.
I think we both think mostly the same things we just disagree about whether or not they constitute dominance, so this is mostly a semantic argument. In the way you mean it, he's dominant. In the way I mean it, he isn't. So let's just leave it at that.
So you're saying that dominance is a product of the margin of victory? (or maybe what people perceive as the margin of victory?)
What about all the 3-2 wins Oov and Savior had? Just because people were SURE they were going to win that makes the win somehow "less close" than when Bisu wins 3-2?
By the way, I don't think anyone, not Oov or Savior, has ever won a league going 3-0 semis (vs at the time best PvP) and 3-0 finals (vs best PvZ ever). How is this not dominance??
Edit: Especially when using Protoss, a race many people assumed would never be able to be as consistent as T or Z. People forget how much of an underdog P was in the year or so before Bisu's GomTV1 win.
Again, on the protoss point, you've got it; he's the best protoss ever, the most dominant, etc.
In general, I think dominance is psychological and it's just not there for Bisu yet. It's a fine distinction: his greatness is in his psychological play, but in terms of the overall psychology surrounding the current scene, I just don't think people view him fearfully the same way. It's not the margin of victory as much as being absolutely the best. I'm just saying the jury is still out. If he doesn't win at least MSL this time, would you still say he was an uber-dominant player?
On October 24 2007 05:05 bine wrote: Again, on the protoss point, you've got it; he's the best protoss ever, the most dominant, etc.
In general, I think dominance is psychological and it's just not there for Bisu yet. It's a fine distinction: his greatness is in his psychological play, but in terms of the overall psychology surrounding the current scene, I just don't think people view him fearfully the same way. It's not the margin of victory as much as being absolutely the best. I'm just saying the jury is still out. If he doesn't win at least MSL this time, would you still say he was an uber-dominant player?
Between GomTV1 and when (if) he loses in the current MSL, yes, I'd say he was dominant for 9 months.
"Fear" is hard to quantify in terms of ZvP. I don't think people really are believing their eyes yet. Most Zergs when they play Bisu, since he's still relatively new, are still in a state of "what the hell is happening" when they play him. They have been successful at ZvP for so long, and their little universe is being turned on its head. Did you see the clip of Savior being consoled by his coach after GomTV1? Bisu BROKE him. That brutal 3-0 was the direct reason why Savior "slumped" (can we even call it that, I guess he did slump by Savior standards) after. I hated Bisu for it, but thought to myself, if he can continue winning, then I can't fault him, because it wasn't a fluke.
What is psychological fear?
Fear is Flash, a macro player, cheese rushing twice because he doesn't want to play straight up. Fear is Stork, the second best Protoss, saying:
"Once for an important ProLeague match, we got some supports from MBC Heroes, and Bisu was helping me prepare a PvsZ. It was unbelievable! In one game I was practicing, all of a sudden Bisu began to describe which kinds of battles will occur on the map after some minutes, on which spot of the map, which units, how many units and so on... and it happened right that way exactly! I asked afterwards how did he do that, but he didn't tell me."
Fear is the best ZvP in the world (10-0 in ZvP series other than you) changing his ZvP style. Fear is getting the badass clips in the OSL/MSL intros, despite that sappy girly commercial.
Fear is making players react to what you're doing, to put pressure on them so that they don't play like they usually do, that they are uncomfortable, that they try risky builds and bad decisions. When you watch Bisu's games, watch how his opponents play, how they react to him. Watch how they KNOW what he's going to do a lot of the times yet can't do anything about it (remind you of a certain Zerg or a certain Terran?)
Uhm, Bisu unlocked the 3-gas PvZ pandora's box, and that makes him untouchable and great. (I'm talking about when a toss has the option to go for the kill (FE only is still a do or die), and his strong harassing play is only there to sett him up for the lategame kill.)
Nada unlocked marine mirco. (APM lol)
Oov unlocked FE terran. (timing and macro)
Savior unlocked the 3-hatch-muta into lurker darkswarm. (great planning and good macro)
All of these players led the way and had a reign of dominance in the sense of other players not finding an answer to this in different race matchups, while at the same time providing solid same race performance.
This is what makes a player great. Eventually counters are found, but as of now, the high resource toss is the bane of zerg. It's certainly map-dependant, but occasionally we have those that even counters map-favorism and does the impossible, and while that is great part luck, it's also simply something else and out of this world.
Like Savior dominating MSL on zerg-maps, but taking an OSL on what I'd call very terran-friendly maps. That's just awesome and shows sheer will power and pressure built from respect.
He is not dominant. For him to be dominant, he will have to win more starleagues. What Bisu is is the best. And quite frankly, he's the closest there is to dominant. He's not there yet, but he could become a great, a legend.
I don't know near enough about progaming to fully enter this discussion, I'll only share my opinion as to why I think he is a dominant Protoss.
No, he is not as revered as Oov or Savior were at their peaks (yet). What scares me is not a stellar winrate, but the fact that his game has no largely exploitable flaws. If I were a player, and after analyzing his replays for a week had found no weaknesses, nothing I could grip onto to try and knock him down, knowing the only way to win would be through equally perfect micro, macro, control and timing, I would be scared.
On October 24 2007 09:35 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: hotbid: oov lost 2-3 to july in gillette osl and beat silent_control 3-2 in the 3rd/4th match
thanks for correction.
my point was that these matches were when Oov was at the peak of his ELO and according to bine, his dominance, and it shows both that ELO is not an end-all indicator of how good a player is and that Oov was having close matches too.
I thought Hwasin had it but he made some key errors: First he kept trying to put down his 4th expansion without securing the ramps, he had to rebuild that command center 3 times because he didnt have tanks and mines in place to defend it. Secondly, he over committed to the 12 expand. In the end he has 10-20 tanks more than he required to take the base, but left nothing at his 3rd and 4th expansions. Bisu sidestepped the knockout punch and blindsided him.
Once the 3rd and 4th expand were down Hwasin was trying to defend with goliaths against goons because his tanks were still up at the 12 o'clock; and his economy was dead; the commentators show you how little is left in the 2 bases he was taking resources from.
Bisu is a monster, but I feel Hwasin lost this one rather than Bisu winning it. Hwasin countered every move Bisu made, and at one point was ahead on expansions; if he had gone straight for Bisu's main rather than his 12 expand he might even have won.
[Edit] I also wanted to add that I think people are giving Bisu a little to much credit for the end. Put yourself in his position, when the 12 expand dies you have just lost a big chunk of tech, AND you are behind on expansions against terran.
Realistically, what are your options ? Economically you are just going to fall further and further behind with yoru 2 expansions against HWasins 3. So you take whatever you have, throw it at him, and hope something sticks; in this case it worked but I dont think it was some inspired genius. It was one last roll of the dice to see if he could win a game which was clearly slipping away from him, and it worked.
That is really one nice writeup and I enjoy also to follow the discussion between HotBid and Bine.
I was not aware of Bisu at all before DJEtter mentioned Bisu in his first PowerRanking. Now I am a big fan, hope he can continue do what he does in MSL till now. Protoss need really one dominant player, one really champion.
I can't believe how one calls bisu "not dominant". You can argue that he hasn't yet achieved the historycal greatness of nada, savior ... but he IS the one dominant force for some time now.
The remainder of this MSL and OSL is going to be a very interesting lot. With Hwasin facing down Iris to survive in the OSL, Bisu has an exceptionally good chance at both of those titles. That said, if he can take either one he'll be the only Protoss player in history to win three starleagues and with the way he's playing he deserves it.
Furthermore, IIRc bar the 0:2 loss to Flash, almost all of Bisu's major losses of late have come from either special events (IE, the Loss vs Hwasin in STX vs MBC, loss versus Luxury in OGN vs MBC) or the proleague itself. With Bisu now playing the 2v2's (and he's pulling in the results there) I would expect his statistics in 1v1's to improve.
I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3. I did not get the same impression when I looked at it. Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process. He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units). For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
On October 25 2007 02:37 Beamo wrote: I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3. I did not get the same impression when I looked at it. Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process. He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units). For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
I do not think you fully understand how PvT works. P usually takes its 3rd before the T, and if Bisu didn't DT drop, he would have had his third, a larger army, and a higher probe count. His nat expo was way later than Hwasin's because of the DT drop, and since he didn't do that much damage, Bisu was behind. Hwasin was ahead when he attacked, the reason he lost was because his armies were split, he had half his army defending and half of it killing Bisu 12:00. If Hwasin had his full army together I do not think Bisu wins the fight.
I still believe that the fact that Bisu is Protoss hurts the "aura." It's something that is built over time, and I think when we look back on this period we'll see Bisu as more "invincible" than he appears to us now.
On October 25 2007 02:37 Beamo wrote: I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3. I did not get the same impression when I looked at it. Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process. He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units). For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
I do not think you fully understand how PvT works. P usually takes its 3rd before the T, and if Bisu didn't DT drop, he would have had his third, a larger army, and a higher probe count. His nat expo was way later than Hwasin's because of the DT drop, and since he didn't do that much damage, Bisu was behind. Hwasin was ahead when he attacked, the reason he lost was because his armies were split, he had half his army defending and half of it killing Bisu 12:00. If Hwasin had his full army together I do not think Bisu wins the fight.
I still believe that the fact that Bisu is Protoss hurts the "aura." It's something that is built over time, and I think when we look back on this period we'll see Bisu as more "invincible" than he appears to us now.
I agree. People, even protosses are still used to them being the race that will never have a consistent winner.
[QUOTE]On October 24 2007 05:25 Hot_Bid wrote: [QUOTE]On October 24 2007 05:05 bine wrote: "Once for an important ProLeague match, we got some supports from MBC Heroes, and Bisu was helping me prepare a PvsZ. It was unbelievable! In one game I was practicing, all of a sudden Bisu began to describe which kinds of battles will occur on the map after some minutes, on which spot of the map, which units, how many units and so on... and it happened right that way exactly! I asked afterwards how did he do that, but he didn't tell me."[/QUOTE] woa... shit... is the full version around?
On October 25 2007 02:37 Beamo wrote: I do not find Bisu as dominating as you describe him...
Yes he has won 2 MSL in a row and is still in for the 3rd one but he does not have that "invinsible aura" Nada, Oov or Savior had in their prime.
He is more like July, he has shown he could beat anyone in any matchup but I do not find him way more impressive then Stork.
Concerning this game 3. I did not get the same impression when I looked at it. Bisu went for a DT drop and did little to no damage but took an extra expo during the process. He stayed on 3 against 2 expos for a long time perfectly blocking Hawasin from doing any damage with vultures and also denying Hwasin 3rd expo (with brilliant micro and perfectly placed units). For me Bisu was then ahead in the game and I'm sure he could have challenged Hwasin's army with carriers + ground units when Hwasin came out but he prefered to swap expos using the fact Hwasin's army was devided finalising the win.
I do not think you fully understand how PvT works. P usually takes its 3rd before the T, and if Bisu didn't DT drop, he would have had his third, a larger army, and a higher probe count. His nat expo was way later than Hwasin's because of the DT drop, and since he didn't do that much damage, Bisu was behind. Hwasin was ahead when he attacked, the reason he lost was because his armies were split, he had half his army defending and half of it killing Bisu 12:00. If Hwasin had his full army together I do not think Bisu wins the fight.
I still believe that the fact that Bisu is Protoss hurts the "aura." It's something that is built over time, and I think when we look back on this period we'll see Bisu as more "invincible" than he appears to us now.
I know Protoss usually take B3 before Terran and I know not hurting with the DT drops put Bisu behind. But after having the guts to take B3 in the same time as B2 even being behind and after managing to avoid all (almost all?) vulture harass (killing quite a few) brought Bisu back in the game. Stopping Hwasin from taking B3 a couple of time with superb micro gave him the advantage.
He already had 6 carriers when Hwasin came out and a much stronger economy.(4 bases with 3 Nexii building probes for way longer then Hwasin had his 2 to 1 expo advantage)
Very good post, well written and sweet pictures. Lets hope naruto and others read this and realize a retarded poll is not needed, just write a decent report and it will get its views if its of decent quality. This is a good example of how to write a report.
Hard to judge whether Bisu has reached the level of "Bonjwa"(invincible, godly, etc) yet. Even though the pro-gaming fanbase actually made it a semi-official title, they've failed to agree on what conditions must be met. All that's managed to be established is that Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Savior are the four who have earned the title so far. Kind of unfair to Bisu, since now there's actually some semi-official ruler to judge gamers with, making people put a lot more scrutiny on him.
Still, I think as long as people doubt him, he has more to prove. When July became the first Zerg to win a major tournament, defeating Reach in the OSL, everyone respected his achievement, but they still questioned certain things. Can he do it again? Answered that by beating Gorush in the KT-KTF Premiere League (greatest tourney EVER!). Can he beat a terran in a final? Answered by beating Goodfriend in OSL final. Can he prove he is an even match vs the big three terrans (Boxer, oov, nada)? Answered in his many games against them.
Now, no one thought July was a Bonjwa, but he cleared all doubt about him being one of the greatest zergs of all time.
I think Bisu is getting there, I think the major tasks people want him to complete right now are 1) win OSL, 2)Defeat a top-class terran in a best of 5.
I dunno if you can put Flash's double cheese vs Bisu on fear. I don't think we know that much about Flash yet. He could just be a pragmatic motherfucker. No one would put Boxer's 3-0 bunker rush victory over Yellow on fear, we know he's just a guy who likes winning over anything else. Seeing as how dull Flash is, I wouldn't be surprised if he just did it because he thought it was genuinely the best strategy.
I think the problem a lot of you guys are having with Bisu is he hasn't brought anything amazing to the table, no amazing new strategy (sure his build vs savior was the perfect counter, but just having it didn't seal the deal, how he played it was a key factor) and he's basically built upon a solid base of Protoss knowledge developed over all the years of professional Starcraft. However, his execution and understanding of the opponent and himself is immaculate. I mean, he attacked Hwasin at the perfect moment every time. Why? Because he could look at himself and think, now I am weak, he needs to attack me. So at that moment he moved out, just as he predicted Hwasin needed to carry out his attack and caught Hwasin in a Terran's weakest moment, as he is moving out, and destroyed him. It's almost like he wrote the Art of War, he turned his weakness into a strength.
The thinking he does during the game, while maintaining such high multytask and perfect macro is why he's simply good. Perhaps it's why he uses such open builds, with many options, just because he knows he can get the thinking done. I just watched one of his MSL Survivor FPVODs against some random zerg, and I think his prediction and knowledge of what should be being done to him helps so much. He was just running a pack of zealots around the map getting lurker kills while I'm sure the zerg didn't know what was going on, somehow he was there before the lurker crossed the path, and it made all the difference.
On October 25 2007 14:43 IaniAniaN wrote: I think the problem a lot of you guys are having with Bisu is he hasn't brought anything amazing to the table, no amazing new strategy (sure his build vs savior was the perfect counter, but just having it didn't seal the deal, how he played it was a key factor) and he's basically built upon a solid base of Protoss knowledge developed over all the years of professional Starcraft. ...
You can say this about any of the dominant players. Oov's strategy was only amazing because of his insane defensive ability, macro timing, etc. Savior by his game sense and multitask, Nada by his apm. Almost everyone that attempts to copy them can only do a half-assed job of it, because every single one of those guys makes strategy work "because of how they played it."
On October 25 2007 04:58 HiTexas wrote: Very good post, well written and sweet pictures. Lets hope naruto and others read this and realize a retarded poll is not needed, just write a decent report and it will get its views if its of decent quality. This is a good example of how to write a report.
Hey I love Bisu he brought back some pride to us Aiur refugees >. But I don't care much for the dominance thing. On the opposite I hope that sAviOr will rise once again and that they are gonna fight like never before during the MSL final. That would be so good. (especially because they both dispalyed beautiful end game handling with savior multitasking against Bisu's feeling of the game) Who cares about full time dominance? A rivalry is so much fun.
There's not a single matchup I can think of that Bisu displays any flaw in. There's not a single player I'd pick over Bisu for a bet. And I think it's safe to say my opinion is shared by practically anyone who's been following pro SC lately.
Whether bisu is "dominant" or not (a subjective term anyway), he is to my mind the best player in the world right now.
Besides, bisu is currently ranked numero uno on the TL Power Rankings. That should be good enough for all of you.
Bisu's tank push stops in games 2 and 3 were art and left me breathless. Fuck, haven't seen anything quite like that since perhaps Reach vs. Boxer on Neo Forbidden Zone and Boxer vs. Garimto on Incubus (the latter, OSL final, circa Winter 2001).
Flash is overrated and always was. Things could change (he's got a lot of years left in him if he chooses to continue), but a lot of the luster's disappeared since his recent poor showings.
EDIT: BTW, check out the reaction by both players after the final match. They are absolutely spent. There was nothing more left in the tank for either of them. Bisu may have won, but he got taken off the cyber-field on a stretcher. And Hwasin looked about as devastated as I've ever seen any SC player after losing. There was exhausted agony written all over the poor guy's face. Jin couldn't even bring himself to move from his seat even while the studio was emptying.
People, this is competitive cyber gaming at its very finest. A classic.
On October 26 2007 00:30 Shauni wrote: You people may reside in Bisu's glorious win over Hwasin, but the true challenge lies ahead!
Bisu vs Up fucking magic OSL RO 16 WEEK 4 GO!
this made me laugh
who's laughing now? O_O
hmm i'm still laughing? though the joke is kind of awkward at this point. bisu said that he didnt practice for his match against upmagic because he can still get out of his group without beating upmagic. being down 0-1 vs hwasin, especially after the way in which he lost game 1, presented a true challenge, whereas upmagic was the lucky guy who had an opponent that didnt care.
On October 22 2007 10:55 Oxygen wrote: It is no surprise, then, that Hwasin notices Bisu is overextending himself, and begins to tear a hole in Bisu's impenetrable psyche.
Or at least, he tries to. He has the army, he has the positioning. But Bisu is a fucking leprechaun - he pulls shit out of his ass and rips Hwasin a new one out of nowhere. I have re-watched the battle about a dozen times now and I still can't figure out how he did it.
Eh? I think the reason Bisu won that fight is pretty simple, and more like a blunder by Hwasin than some godliness by Bisu (though Bisu did make a very smart decision, which I cover later)
After Bisu ran up the ramp to attack the constructing CC and subsequently back off after losing several units but doing very little dmg, Hwasin feels it's obvious Bisu will just try to run after that kind of a loss but he decides to stop running and fight, which is what won him the battle (and arguably the game). Hwasin must not be aware Bisu stopped running and started fighting as his vultures just stand there and die without pulling back a bit and/or mining, not to mention his tanks start sieging too late.
In fact by the time his tanks are in siege mode almost all his vultures are dead, and zealots have already reached the tanks. mostly naked tanks combined with shuttle dropping dts, a few tanks in tank mode and a newly produced wave of zealots pouring in, there's no way hwasin could have won that fight. Add to that with the fact that he had 0 mines laid beforehand nor did he try to lay any during the fight nor did he have any vulture reinforcements, it's not surprising at all how Bisu won it. Hwasin made the mistake of being a bit greedy, expecting Bisu would just try to run, so he tried to pick off a few more guys but allowing himself to be much weaker should Bisu fight back. Bisu was smart enough to realize he should attack, and those 2 things combined is what won the battle.
I think it's very easy to downsize any kind of sick play Bisu makes, but I doubt Bisu really saw the full extent of Hwasin's army. He has an uncanny knack to sense his opponent's strength. Bisu had one observer where Hwasin's army was and didn't really see Hwasin's troops (unless there's an obs I can't see on the VOD). All Bisu saw was a few units and a bunch of mines with tanks perched on a ledge. Just because Hwasin fucked up by not pulling his units back to his takns and behind his mines doesn't mean that Bisu's attack wasn't beautiful. I don't know how he did it because it took so much confidence (read: balls) in oneself to know you can execute it perfectly. How the fuck does he know where Hwasin's head is at? How does he know how Hwasin will react? How does he know all the technical reasons you mentioned for his win of the skirmish?
On October 31 2007 05:47 Oxygen wrote: I think it's very easy to downsize any kind of sick play Bisu makes, but I doubt Bisu really saw the full extent of Hwasin's army. He has an uncanny knack to sense his opponent's strength. Bisu had one observer where Hwasin's army was and didn't really see Hwasin's troops (unless there's an obs I can't see on the VOD). All Bisu saw was a few units and a bunch of mines with tanks perched on a ledge. Just because Hwasin fucked up by not pulling his units back to his takns and behind his mines doesn't mean that Bisu's attack wasn't beautiful. I don't know how he did it because it took so much confidence (read: balls) in oneself to know you can execute it perfectly. How the fuck does he know where Hwasin's head is at? How does he know how Hwasin will react? How does he know all the technical reasons you mentioned for his win of the skirmish?
I think you're making a bit too much of it. He didnt necessarily know all those things, but he could see that hwasin had poor positioning, no mines, unsieged tanks, while bisu's forces had pretty good positioning, plus his shuttle full of dts nearby.
however I do think it's possible Bisu had planned that out from before, intentionally trying to lure hwasin out like that by going up the ramp to the CC under construction. The way he did it it certainly looked like he planned it.. and only he could pull off a move like that. If that was the case then damn that is just amazing. Incredible insight, confidence, execution. Masterful. Bisu
EPT![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5156/25470562ny5.jpg)
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....oh well...hopefully next time? 
![[image loading]](http://i21.tinypic.com/14uuhs2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/sAviOr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/Hwasin.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/liquibet/players/Bisu.jpg)
