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On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote: The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later.
Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc.
I don't really understand this. A character going from dere to tsun does not mean that the character can't have a personality/development outside of that. That doesn't change the fact that they are also a classical tsundere. They can be both. Tsundere only really describes how a character loves another character.
On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote: The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
man, did Neo link my MAL discussion about how I thought Akana from Kuzu no honkai is the worst character for just being that straight up "evil" person rather than something more nuanced?
random guy: What do you mean? She's the best character so far. She has the best basis: I am narcissist seeking attention because it "feels good". So far, that's the best, most honest motivation we've had so far! How are Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan better?
- Me: because Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan are confused teenagers that don't even know what they are themselves, rather than one specific character to the extreme. Sure there are some psycho's out there but most (real) people I meet aren't characters I'd dare to describe in such a simplistic way but instead a mix of a lot things.
But I've come to terms with Akane... more or less. The episode after that innitial one was way better, at least for me.
No he didn't but I think it's common sense, no? I think we even had this discussion here before.
Anyways, to come back to Unleashing's point: I like this charater development, specific for tsunderes, as well. But that doesn't mean the character can't be more nuanced. Wouldn't it be nicer if the character had the traits and developments kind of akin to a tsundere but other traits as well?
On February 15 2017 07:27 Unleashing wrote:
On February 15 2017 07:23 Miragee wrote:
On February 15 2017 07:08 IceHism wrote:
On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote: The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later.
Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc.
On February 15 2017 07:12 Unleashing wrote:
On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote: The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents.
Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast.
Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author.
I think we are talking about different definitions of archetypes. Using your definition, even real people fall into certain archetype categories, which I would deny to be true. Certain, overlapping similarities of character traits or reactions to situations, problems etc. do not equal the classification as archetypes imho.
Sure real people fall into archetypes, not in the same way a fictional character would but we are often are taught how different people fall into different archetypes during project or group work as well with some people being the leader type archetype and so on.
Sorry but that's bullshit. I know what they say for those group works etc. and it only works to a certain degree and people have to understand that. I could always throw up when I see how literally people are taking these theories.
Your definition might differ from mine but the original use of the word archetype included terms as broad as 'hero', 'explorer', 'rebel' and so on afaik, when they're that broad it's hard for a character to not fall into atleast one of them.
Again, only because they also fall into one or more of these categories doesn't mean the category completely defines them. And that's the difference here. Of course certain traits of people/characters fall into certain categories. I mean try to apply those 3 categories to you. I'm pretty sure that you can at least find all three of them in certain parts of life while in other parts of your life you are the exact opposite and/or more nuanced on it.
I never said that the archetype completely defines the character, i even said earlier that'd make the author a shitty one. But it doesn't change that a character that ticks most of the boxes that describes a classical tsundere is ultimately still a classical tsundere even if they're a much more complex character than other more generic or boring classical tsundere characters.
And i don't consider it bullshit, i don't think it's completely true or that it completely defines people but from my own experience there is truth in it, and as far as i'm concerned people do fall into certain archetypes. Some people are just much better leaders and take naturally to it, to me they fall into a leader archetype. I don't think those archetypes define them as people, but i still believe that they fall into them. I don't use archetypes in real life nor do i care about them and it's not something i think about normally, but if you were to ask me i believe they applied to real people then my answer is yes. You're free to disagree.
To me they're just ways to easily put characters and even people into boxes for easy comparisons. If we have two anti-hero characters then there could be a hundred other things defining them, but they'd still be falling into the anti-hero archetype even if it was a minor part of their character.
Edit: I think we'll have to agree to disagree
I'm inclined to agree heavily with this. Also, personally, I think people can always change so even though they may fit an archetype, they don't have to be defined by it for the rest of their lives etc...
People are pretty fluid so yea they probably have tons of archetypes contained within them. Everyone has been a tsundere sometime in their life most likely. It isn't an uncommon thing to get a bad 1st impression and dislike them and over time warming up to them (not necessarily falling in love ).
A lot of these character archetypes are just a description of the arc the relationship with that character will go. People are lazy though and make a tsundere be that way towards like everyone.
On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote: The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later.
Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc.
I don't really understand this. A character going from dere to tsun does not mean that the character can't have a personality/development outside of that. That doesn't change the fact that they are also a classical tsundere. They can be both. Tsundere only really describes how a character loves another character.
I think a more apt way to phrase the discussion is "the character traits commonly associated with 'tsundere' are shit, and the only time said character is good is when other, different character traits make up for the shitty ones".
On February 15 2017 23:11 Sentenal wrote: I think a more apt way to phrase the discussion is "the character traits commonly associated with 'tsundere' are shit, and the only time said character is good is when other, different character traits make up for the shitty ones".
That's my feelings on the matter and what I'm understanding everyone saying. Essentially "tsundere that stops being tsundere" is good.
On February 16 2017 08:29 Toadesstern wrote: man I was laughing a lot with that KonoSuba episode from today. So much good stuff. Even if just the last frame:
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A50cchZ.jpg)
