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On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway.
Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem.
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On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway.
idk, found it on google. All I remember is that there was some episode that had her bathing naked in a lake that obviously resulted in him walking in on her or something like that. Probably from that episode?
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Canada4481 Posts
On February 15 2017 04:23 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 03:10 Toadesstern wrote:On February 15 2017 01:00 Nagisama wrote:On February 14 2017 23:02 disformation wrote:On February 14 2017 06:12 Toadesstern wrote:On February 14 2017 06:02 Nagisama wrote:
Satania is literally the best in GabDropout. Together with Vigne who is pure love Dropout is weird. A lot of it is really really really stupid (looking at you Satania), but I still enjoy the show a lot. Ep. 3 was best so far though, really did lmao hard while watching that one. Also agree that Vigne is pure love. I also really like Gab. Raph is creepy/scary as fuck though. Enjoyable because she can be bullied so easily. Raph's constant trolling of her is what makes Raph enjoyable. At the same time, she's retarded ... not sure what I want. it's pretty easy. Raph is enabled by Satania. Without her Raph wouldn't even be a thing and Gab would be worse off as well. So while you guys can go ahead and enjoy all the fun you get from Raph bullying her, or Gab bullying her, or Vigne being pissed when she's had enough, at least I do acknowledge that the real source of all that fun is really just Satania :3 On February 14 2017 23:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
What about "Senpai, this is our fight!" girl? No love for her huh? I've come to terms with that line once I realized that that means there HAS TO BE fanfiction (the R18+ kind of stuff) that involves that line and that just made me burst out in laughter. + Show Spoiler [lewd? just 3 lines] +MC + Himeragi spend a night of nothing but lewd together.
After a couple times MC can't go on anymore.
"From here on it's MY fight [of manhoodness]" and Himeragi answers "no senpai, this is OUR fight" as she, literally, gives a helping hand. I should follow goody's path and become a doujinshi author just to make that a reality if that doesn't already exist. Also like Numy said, the girls are all looking really good in the series Nah, any scene with satania is worse than the scenes without her in general. Sure raph would be pointless but the others function fine without her, satania is just the most boring character of the bunch. So nah, she isn't the real source of the fun in the show. Me and the friend i watch it with are both happy whenever she's not a part of a scene. Pretty sure she alone drags the show down an entire score for me.
Pretty much this. Raphi would be pointless, but Gab and Vigne combo works perfectly fine. Tbh, Raphi can then troll Gab maybe. In the end, show would still be ok w/ Shitania.
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I don't mind the main girl from StB, there are just better ones *shrug* from the end arc of the anime he probably+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 15 2017 06:14 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. idk, found it on google. All I remember is that there was some episode that had her bathing naked in a lake that obviously resulted in him walking in on her or something like that. Probably from that episode?
This is episode 7 or 8. I think
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On February 15 2017 06:12 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem.
You say this and I've read people say this but when 99% of tsunderes are "shitty tsundere" then isn't it correct to say that tsunderes are the problem with a handful of exceptions?
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On February 15 2017 06:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem. You say this and I've read people say this but when 99% of tsunderes are "shitty tsundere" then isn't it correct to say that tsunderes are the problem with a handful of exceptions?
Not for people here. We had the same discussion about harems...
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On February 15 2017 06:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem. You say this and I've read people say this but when 99% of tsunderes are "shitty tsundere" then isn't it correct to say that tsunderes are the problem with a handful of exceptions?
No, because the problem stems from the fact that at some point like a decade or so ago someone somewhere popuralized the shit tsundere aka the modern tsundere who flipflops between dere and tsun like an absolutely awful person.
The point of a tsundere character is for her to start out tsun and slowly warm up and become dere, which is great, this flipflop bullshit from modern tsundere is what ruins it.
Classical tsundere are among the best dere types there are.
Modern tsundere are among the worst.
Violent bipolar cunts are never good and their popularity baffles me.
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The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them 
Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
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On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later.
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On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents.
Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast.
Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author.
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On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing.
man, did Neo link my MAL discussion about how I thought Akana from Kuzu no honkai is the worst character for just being that straight up "evil" person rather than something more nuanced?
random guy:
What do you mean? She's the best character so far. She has the best basis: I am narcissist seeking attention because it "feels good". So far, that's the best, most honest motivation we've had so far! How are Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan better?
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Me:
because Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan are confused teenagers that don't even know what they are themselves, rather than one specific character to the extreme.
Sure there are some psycho's out there but most (real) people I meet aren't characters I'd dare to describe in such a simplistic way but instead a mix of a lot things.
But I've come to terms with Akane... more or less. The episode after that innitial one was way better, at least for me.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 15 2017 07:02 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:59 Numy wrote:On February 15 2017 06:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem. You say this and I've read people say this but when 99% of tsunderes are "shitty tsundere" then isn't it correct to say that tsunderes are the problem with a handful of exceptions? No, because the problem stems from the fact that at some point like a decade or so ago someone somewhere popuralized the shit tsundere aka the modern tsundere who flipflops between dere and tsun like an absolutely awful person. The point of a tsundere character is for her to start out tsun and slowly warm up and become dere, which is great, this flipflop bullshit from modern tsundere is what ruins it. Classical tsundere are among the best dere types there are. Modern tsundere are among the worst. Violent bipolar cunts are never good and their popularity baffles me.
agree, the opening up slowly portion is great when it happens well.
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On February 15 2017 07:08 IceHism wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later.
Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc.
On February 15 2017 07:12 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents. Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast. Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author.
I think we are talking about different definitions of archetypes. Using your definition, even real people fall into certain archetype categories, which I would deny to be true. Certain, overlapping similarities of character traits or reactions to situations, problems etc. do not equal the classification as archetypes imho.
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It depends... I think for me I make a pretty clear cut between characters that are just there because a show needs characters and actual characters...
Himeragi I couldn't care less that she's a shitty character because she's there to look good and that's what she's supposed to be. I never got the idea that the show or the series attempted to make her into an actual character and was fairly straight forward with it being just fanservice.
In those situations I don't mind the "modern" tsundere one bit. I like Noire after all.
Obviously if you put such a character into a show like 3gatsu, to give a recent example, you're going to hate her.
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On February 15 2017 07:23 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:08 IceHism wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later. Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc. Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents. Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast. Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author. I think we are talking about different definitions of archetypes. Using your definition, even real people fall into certain archetype categories, which I would deny to be true. Certain, overlapping similarities of character traits or reactions to situations, problems etc. do not equal the classification as archetypes imho.
Sure real people fall into archetypes, not in the same way a fictional character would but we are often are taught how different people fall into different archetypes during project or group work as well with some people being the leader type archetype and so on.
So yeah, i believe even real people fall into various archetypes throughout their lives.
Your definition might differ from mine but the original use of the word archetype included terms as broad as 'hero', 'explorer', 'rebel' and so on afaik, when they're that broad it's hard for a character to not fall into atleast one of them.
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On February 15 2017 06:59 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 06:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 06:08 Numy wrote:
Which ep is that for the hoodie?
@Unleashing - sure she was prob worse character but she's really pretty so.... She's also pretty cool when she's not doing that dumb tsundere stuff. Well most tsunderes are better when they aren't tsundere anyway. Tsundere are fine, shitty tsundere are the problem. You say this and I've read people say this but when 99% of tsunderes are "shitty tsundere" then isn't it correct to say that tsunderes are the problem with a handful of exceptions?
History has shown this to be true. If a charactet is good, them being a tsundere is normally coincidental, or they are good in spite of it. If a character is easily defined by an archetype, thats already a red flag, especially when that archetype entails then being a bipolar bitch.
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On February 15 2017 07:18 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. man, did Neo link my MAL discussion about how I thought Akana from Kuzu no honkai is the worst character for just being that straight up "evil" person rather than something more nuanced? Show nested quote +random guy:
What do you mean? She's the best character so far. She has the best basis: I am narcissist seeking attention because it "feels good". So far, that's the best, most honest motivation we've had so far! How are Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan better?
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Me:
because Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan are confused teenagers that don't even know what they are themselves, rather than one specific character to the extreme.
Sure there are some psycho's out there but most (real) people I meet aren't characters I'd dare to describe in such a simplistic way but instead a mix of a lot things. But I've come to terms with Akane... more or less. The episode after that innitial one was way better, at least for me.
No he didn't but I think it's common sense, no? I think we even had this discussion here before.
Anyways, to come back to Unleashing's point: I like this charater development, specific for tsunderes, as well. But that doesn't mean the character can't be more nuanced. Wouldn't it be nicer if the character had the traits and developments kind of akin to a tsundere but other traits as well?
On February 15 2017 07:27 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:23 Miragee wrote:On February 15 2017 07:08 IceHism wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later. Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc. On February 15 2017 07:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents. Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast. Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author. I think we are talking about different definitions of archetypes. Using your definition, even real people fall into certain archetype categories, which I would deny to be true. Certain, overlapping similarities of character traits or reactions to situations, problems etc. do not equal the classification as archetypes imho. Sure real people fall into archetypes, not in the same way a fictional character would but we are often are taught how different people fall into different archetypes during project or group work as well with some people being the leader type archetype and so on.
Sorry but that's bullshit. I know what they say for those group works etc. and it only works to a certain degree and people have to understand that. I could always throw up when I see how literally people are taking these theories.
Your definition might differ from mine but the original use of the word archetype included terms as broad as 'hero', 'explorer', 'rebel' and so on afaik, when they're that broad it's hard for a character to not fall into atleast one of them.
Again, only because they also fall into one or more of these categories doesn't mean the category completely defines them. And that's the difference here. Of course certain traits of people/characters fall into certain categories. I mean try to apply those 3 categories to you. I'm pretty sure that you can at least find all three of them in certain parts of life while in other parts of your life you are the exact opposite and/or more nuanced on it.
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On February 15 2017 07:42 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:18 Toadesstern wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. man, did Neo link my MAL discussion about how I thought Akana from Kuzu no honkai is the worst character for just being that straight up "evil" person rather than something more nuanced? random guy:
What do you mean? She's the best character so far. She has the best basis: I am narcissist seeking attention because it "feels good". So far, that's the best, most honest motivation we've had so far! How are Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan better?
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Me:
because Hanabi, Mugi and Ecchan are confused teenagers that don't even know what they are themselves, rather than one specific character to the extreme.
Sure there are some psycho's out there but most (real) people I meet aren't characters I'd dare to describe in such a simplistic way but instead a mix of a lot things. But I've come to terms with Akane... more or less. The episode after that innitial one was way better, at least for me. No he didn't but I think it's common sense, no? I think we even had this discussion here before. Anyways, to come back to Unleashing's point: I like this charater development, specific for tsunderes, as well. But that doesn't mean the character can't be more nuanced. Wouldn't it be nicer if the character had the traits and developments kind of akin to a tsundere but other traits as well? Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 07:27 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 07:23 Miragee wrote:On February 15 2017 07:08 IceHism wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Everyone starts out as an archetype though. Like how do you not. You can only make them become something unique later. Of course. But the definition of the original tsundere archetype encompasses the whole character development. Which is completely different than starting out as some sort of archetype. I would also argue that I personally wouldn't judge a character until a certain point into the series. I mean, you don't judge people after you first met them, do you? At least I hope you don't.^^ Well, and at a certain point into the series the character already shouldn't be an archetype anymore but defined by his actions, words etc. On February 15 2017 07:12 Unleashing wrote:On February 15 2017 07:06 Miragee wrote:The best characters aren't archetypes and/or contain a number of them Although I agree with your sentiment Unleashing. Characters end up falling into archetypes if we want them to or not and i genuinely enjoy characters that start out cold and distant and slowly open up and eventually fall in love. It's one of my favourite ways for romance to play our, which is just what the classical tsundere represents. Even the most complex characters are to some degree a part of some sort of archetypal character that has been made somewhere else before. Not because the author is unoriginal, but because the amount of characters created by various stories is so extremely vast. Obviously you also have authors that leave the character as nothing more than the archetype, which is just being a garbage author. I think we are talking about different definitions of archetypes. Using your definition, even real people fall into certain archetype categories, which I would deny to be true. Certain, overlapping similarities of character traits or reactions to situations, problems etc. do not equal the classification as archetypes imho. Sure real people fall into archetypes, not in the same way a fictional character would but we are often are taught how different people fall into different archetypes during project or group work as well with some people being the leader type archetype and so on. Sorry but that's bullshit. I know what they say for those group works etc. and it only works to a certain degree and people have to understand that. I could always throw up when I see how literally people are taking these theories. Show nested quote +Your definition might differ from mine but the original use of the word archetype included terms as broad as 'hero', 'explorer', 'rebel' and so on afaik, when they're that broad it's hard for a character to not fall into atleast one of them. Again, only because they also fall into one or more of these categories doesn't mean the category completely defines them. And that's the difference here. Of course certain traits of people/characters fall into certain categories. I mean try to apply those 3 categories to you. I'm pretty sure that you can at least find all three of them in certain parts of life while in other parts of your life you are the exact opposite and/or more nuanced on it.
I never said that the archetype completely defines the character, i even said earlier that'd make the author a shitty one. But it doesn't change that a character that ticks most of the boxes that describes a classical tsundere is ultimately still a classical tsundere even if they're a much more complex character than other more generic or boring classical tsundere characters.
And i don't consider it bullshit, i don't think it's completely true or that it completely defines people but from my own experience there is truth in it, and as far as i'm concerned people do fall into certain archetypes. Some people are just much better leaders and take naturally to it, to me they fall into a leader archetype. I don't think those archetypes define them as people, but i still believe that they fall into them.
I don't use archetypes in real life nor do i care about them and it's not something i think about normally, but if you were to ask me i believe they applied to real people then my answer is yes. You're free to disagree.
To me they're just ways to easily put characters and even people into boxes for easy comparisons.
If we have two anti-hero characters then there could be a hundred other things defining them, but they'd still be falling into the anti-hero archetype even if it was a minor part of their character.
Edit: I think we'll have to agree to disagree 
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What's the point of a person/character falling into a certain archetype if they, at the same time, fall into a few dozen other archetypes? What's the additional value you can attain from that? Trying to fit people into certain boxes seems so pointless to me because the only benefit would be the option to define them easily - which isn't possible like you stated just now because the archetype doesn't fully define a person.
For example, it's like saying Hisoka (HxH) and Johann (Monster) are both villains. How does that help comparing them in any way + Show Spoiler [light HxH spoiler] +especially when Hisoka actually helps the protagonists multiple times for different reasons
Trying to fit people into boxes is not an easy way to compare them, it's dodging the problem of trying to understand why they really think and act that way.
Anyways, let me add to my initial statement: The best characters are so nuanced that trying to fit them into certain archetypes is utterly pointless.
In the end, I think you are right. We are better off just disagreeing with each other and let this slight.
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