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oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination.
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On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination.
Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here?
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On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:
[quote]
the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole...
all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed.
Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain?
what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death.
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On July 20 2013 00:26 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination. Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here?
Blackbread's 2nd ability that sucks in Devil fruit user's body and once he comes in physical contact with them the person will lose his fruit ability as long as blackbread is physically connected to them. Which means he could have wipe out all the marine admirals and whitebread crews if shanks didn't show up. Shanks doesn't have a DF as for as we know. That's what i'm trying to say.
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On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:
[quote]
Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death.
Haki allow people to negate devil fruit powers when that power is come into contact with the haki imbued body. as well as increase defensive power on the part of the body that is coated with the haki. The damage of the attack coated with haki has everything to do with the physical power behind the attack much more so than the amount of haki that is imbued into the attack. you can imbue your entire body with haki like vergo but if you are weak physically you still can't do any damage to people.
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On July 20 2013 00:44 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:
[quote]
It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far.
If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker).
i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death. Haki allow people to negate devil fruit powers as well as increase defensive power on the part of the body that is coated with the haki. The damage of the attack coated with haki has everything to do with the physical power behind the attack much more so than the amount of haki that is imbued into the attack. you can imbue your entire body with haki like vergo but if you are weak physically you still can't do any damage to people.
thats not true, the damage of the attack is physical power + Haki otherwise the amazons would never have been able to shoot arrows through rocks and Luffy wouldnt ahve used Haki on FI so much
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Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit.
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On July 20 2013 00:52 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:44 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:[quote] Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death. Haki allow people to negate devil fruit powers as well as increase defensive power on the part of the body that is coated with the haki. The damage of the attack coated with haki has everything to do with the physical power behind the attack much more so than the amount of haki that is imbued into the attack. you can imbue your entire body with haki like vergo but if you are weak physically you still can't do any damage to people. thats not true, the damage of the attack is physical power + Haki otherwise the amazons would never have been able to shoot arrows through rocks and Luffy wouldnt ahve used Haki on FI so much
WTF if you think about it just a little more you will have to agree with my logic here. The arrow with haki imbued strengthen the physical shape of the arrow, and make it harder than rocks, but the strength that propel the comes from the bow, and not the arrow, if you imbue the arrow and just let it drop on the floor it would not penetrate anything. There is a reason it's call the armament haki.
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On July 20 2013 00:58 shark. wrote:
Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit.
updated my post to clarify.
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On July 20 2013 01:01 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:58 shark. wrote:
Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit. updated my post to clarify.
You are still wrong because haki does not negate devil fruit powers. Busoshoku haki merely lets you "touch" the real form of the body of a devil fruit user. Read the posts on the last page that i made to learn properly.
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On July 20 2013 00:59 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:52 Forikorder wrote:On July 20 2013 00:44 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:
[quote]
thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person.
Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death. Haki allow people to negate devil fruit powers as well as increase defensive power on the part of the body that is coated with the haki. The damage of the attack coated with haki has everything to do with the physical power behind the attack much more so than the amount of haki that is imbued into the attack. you can imbue your entire body with haki like vergo but if you are weak physically you still can't do any damage to people. thats not true, the damage of the attack is physical power + Haki otherwise the amazons would never have been able to shoot arrows through rocks and Luffy wouldnt ahve used Haki on FI so much WTF if you think about it just a little more you will have to agree with my logic here. The arrow with haki imbued strengthen the physical shape of the arrow, and make it harder than rocks, but the strength that propel the comes from the bow, and not the arrow, if you imbue the arrow and just let it drop on the floor it would not penetrate anything. There is a reason it's call the armament haki.
none of which explains why Luffy and Vergo both constantly used it when attacking non-logia targets
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On July 20 2013 01:06 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:59 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:52 Forikorder wrote:On July 20 2013 00:44 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:[quote] I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death. Haki allow people to negate devil fruit powers as well as increase defensive power on the part of the body that is coated with the haki. The damage of the attack coated with haki has everything to do with the physical power behind the attack much more so than the amount of haki that is imbued into the attack. you can imbue your entire body with haki like vergo but if you are weak physically you still can't do any damage to people. thats not true, the damage of the attack is physical power + Haki otherwise the amazons would never have been able to shoot arrows through rocks and Luffy wouldnt ahve used Haki on FI so much WTF if you think about it just a little more you will have to agree with my logic here. The arrow with haki imbued strengthen the physical shape of the arrow, and make it harder than rocks, but the strength that propel the comes from the bow, and not the arrow, if you imbue the arrow and just let it drop on the floor it would not penetrate anything. There is a reason it's call the armament haki. none of which explains why Luffy and Vergo both constantly used it when attacking non-logia targets
it makes the part of their body that is coated with haki harder than whatever they are going to hit. if you throw a cotton ball at someone's face they are not ganna feel much pain, but if you throw a fucking rock in the fact which is harder than a cotton ball then they will feel much more pain even if you throw them with the same strength.
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On July 20 2013 00:38 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:26 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination. Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here? Blackbread's 2nd ability that sucks in Devil fruit user's body and once he comes in physical contact with them the person will lose his fruit ability as long as blackbread is physically connected to them. Which means he could have wipe out all the marine admirals and whitebread crews if shanks didn't show up. Shanks doesn't have a DF as for as we know. That's what i'm trying to say.
Are you trolling? Milkis never argued against you in how blackbeard's ability works. Blackbeard hypothetically wiping out the admirals wasn't even part of the discussion. I already explained why blackbeard's power is not a literal black hole. If you are going to troll, do it somewhere else.
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On July 20 2013 01:06 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:01 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:58 shark. wrote:
Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit. updated my post to clarify. You are still wrong because haki does not negate devil fruit powers. Busoshoku haki merely lets you "touch" the real form oe body of a devil fruit power. Read the poats on the last page that i made to learn properly.
by neglecting it i mean the same thing as what you described. we are in agreement in this matter. the "neglecting" word is key on the person neglecting the incoming DF power acting on him. when i said "neglect" i don't mean the DF user loses their ability all together.
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On July 20 2013 01:10 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:38 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:26 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination. Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here? Blackbread's 2nd ability that sucks in Devil fruit user's body and once he comes in physical contact with them the person will lose his fruit ability as long as blackbread is physically connected to them. Which means he could have wipe out all the marine admirals and whitebread crews if shanks didn't show up. Shanks doesn't have a DF as for as we know. That's what i'm trying to say. Are you trolling? Milkis never argued against you in how blackbeard's ability works. Blackbeard hypothetically wiping out the admirals wasn't even part of the discussion. I already explained why blackbeard's power is not a literal black hole. If you are going to troll, do it somewhere else.
wtf this is the first time you see me post here? you ask me if i'm trolling? oda is wrong? connect the dots?
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On July 20 2013 01:12 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:06 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 01:01 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:58 shark. wrote:
Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit. updated my post to clarify. You are still wrong because haki does not negate devil fruit powers. Busoshoku haki merely lets you "touch" the real form oe body of a devil fruit power. Read the poats on the last page that i made to learn properly. by neglecting it i mean the same thing as what you described. we are in agreement in this matter. the "neglecting" word is key on the person neglecting the incoming DF power acting on him. when i said "neglect" i don't mean the DF user loses their ability all together.
You said negate. Troll more?
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On July 20 2013 01:13 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:10 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:38 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:26 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination. Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here? Blackbread's 2nd ability that sucks in Devil fruit user's body and once he comes in physical contact with them the person will lose his fruit ability as long as blackbread is physically connected to them. Which means he could have wipe out all the marine admirals and whitebread crews if shanks didn't show up. Shanks doesn't have a DF as for as we know. That's what i'm trying to say. Are you trolling? Milkis never argued against you in how blackbeard's ability works. Blackbeard hypothetically wiping out the admirals wasn't even part of the discussion. I already explained why blackbeard's power is not a literal black hole. If you are going to troll, do it somewhere else. wtf this is the first time you see me post here? you ask me if i'm trolling? oda is wrong? connect the dots?
Nah not my first time. I'll just ignore you then. Sorry for intruding on your parade.
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On July 20 2013 00:28 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:22 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:
[quote]
Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users? You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain? what do you mean never explain? several examples have already been brought up. Vista vs Akainu compared to Doflamingo vs Smoker for example. in one occasion BH seems to do literary nothing, in the other case it brings smoker to the verge of death.
Edit: sent explanation in a PM.
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On July 20 2013 01:15 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:13 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 01:10 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:38 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:26 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:24 rei wrote:
oda name it blackhole, oda said not even light can escape. Whatever blackbread says comes from oda, blackbread is a character made up of oda's imagination. Yes I agree with you that whatever Blackbeard says comes from Oda. Blackbeard also says his fruit is Darkness, not a black hole. What are you even trying to say here? Blackbread's 2nd ability that sucks in Devil fruit user's body and once he comes in physical contact with them the person will lose his fruit ability as long as blackbread is physically connected to them. Which means he could have wipe out all the marine admirals and whitebread crews if shanks didn't show up. Shanks doesn't have a DF as for as we know. That's what i'm trying to say. Are you trolling? Milkis never argued against you in how blackbeard's ability works. Blackbeard hypothetically wiping out the admirals wasn't even part of the discussion. I already explained why blackbeard's power is not a literal black hole. If you are going to troll, do it somewhere else. wtf this is the first time you see me post here? you ask me if i'm trolling? oda is wrong? connect the dots? Nah not my first time. I'll just ignore you then. Sorry for intruding on your parade.
the things is nobody can ignore me, because you can't ignore sound logic that's back up by facts anyone who's capable of critical thinking can agree on.
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On July 20 2013 01:14 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 01:12 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 01:06 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 01:01 rei wrote:On July 20 2013 00:58 shark. wrote:
Haki does not negate Devil Fruit powers. Seastone negates Devil Fruit powers. Haki allows you to bypass the Devil Fruit ability but the Devil fruit user is still more than capable of using their Devil Fruit. updated my post to clarify. You are still wrong because haki does not negate devil fruit powers. Busoshoku haki merely lets you "touch" the real form oe body of a devil fruit power. Read the poats on the last page that i made to learn properly. by neglecting it i mean the same thing as what you described. we are in agreement in this matter. the "neglecting" word is key on the person neglecting the incoming DF power acting on him. when i said "neglect" i don't mean the DF user loses their ability all together. You said negate. Troll more?
auto spell check, sorry
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EPT
