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On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:34 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:28 sc2holar wrote:
Ok, i guess you are right there. Well the point is, i still dont think puma could push himself out of a vortex. You don't have to guess. You can fully believe that I am right there. Also, when Kuma uses his "push" ability for transportation, it's an instant effect. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2580-17/one-piece/chapter-473.html See here for confirmation. As I already showed you, Blackbeard can't negate anything until he touches them. Kuma can just "teleport" himself out. One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule)
oda is wrong
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On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole.
Nevermind the black hole, what about the 11 SUPERNOVA'S? imagine the universe shattering chain reaction of 11 supernovas going off simultaniously on a small, earth shaped planet.
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On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese.
The fruit literally makes the user become "darkness". The "darkness" itself has the property of gravity and sucks in everything.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
ODA IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
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5003 Posts
On July 19 2013 23:00 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese. The fruit literally makes the user become "darkness". The "darkness" itself has the property of gravity and sucks in everything.
So you mean it's like a vacuum sucking in things to them? Might be why Ace's power doesnt work (needs oxygen to combust)
Still not a black hole which is my point
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On July 19 2013 23:02 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:00 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese. The fruit literally makes the user become "darkness". The "darkness" itself has the property of gravity and sucks in everything. So you mean it's like a vacuum sucking in things to them? Might be why Ace's power doesnt work (needs oxygen to combust) Still not a black hole which is my point
I agree with you that it's not a black hole. I'm just telling you how Oda explained "darkness" in One Piece world.
And Ace's power was negated because the Darkness fruit negates all other fruits. That is the second known effect of the fruit. The first is the property of gravity.
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On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:34 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:28 sc2holar wrote:
Ok, i guess you are right there. Well the point is, i still dont think puma could push himself out of a vortex. You don't have to guess. You can fully believe that I am right there. Also, when Kuma uses his "push" ability for transportation, it's an instant effect. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2580-17/one-piece/chapter-473.html See here for confirmation. As I already showed you, Blackbeard can't negate anything until he touches them. Kuma can just "teleport" himself out. One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule)
I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki?
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7
Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki.
Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine.
Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where.
Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14
Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility.
2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed.
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On July 19 2013 22:55 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:34 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:28 sc2holar wrote:
Ok, i guess you are right there. Well the point is, i still dont think puma could push himself out of a vortex. You don't have to guess. You can fully believe that I am right there. Also, when Kuma uses his "push" ability for transportation, it's an instant effect. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2580-17/one-piece/chapter-473.html See here for confirmation. As I already showed you, Blackbeard can't negate anything until he touches them. Kuma can just "teleport" himself out. One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) oda is wrong
ODA CANT BE WRONG except for the magma burning fire part :D
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Busoshoku Haki allows you to Bypass the Devil Fruit power of the person so you can touch their "real" body hence why logias can be punched and Luffy can be hurt while also giving that defense property stuff if its strong enough or something. Seastone completely negates all Devil Fruit powers. Blackbeards Fruit gave his Body the property of a Black hole from what I understand as he can control gravity using himself as the epicenter of his abilities plus he can "absorb" objects and people into his body.
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On July 19 2013 23:45 shark. wrote:
Busoshoku Haki allows you to Bypass the Devil Fruit power of the person so you can touch their "real" body hence why logias can be punched and Luffy can be hurt while also giving that defense property stuff if its strong enough or something. Seastone completely negates all Devil Fruit powers. Blackbeards Fruit gave his Body the property of a Black hole from what I understand as he can control gravity using himself as the epicenter of his abilities plus he can "absorb" objects and people into his body.
Remember though it's not an actual black hole. The "absorb" or "sucking in" part of his fruit is an example of why it's not a black hole in that things are not reduced to atoms as when Blackbeard spews the marine soldiers out from his darkness, they are completely intact, but injured heavily.
And again, the fruit itself is DARKNESS. The darkness has the property of gravity. The fruit granted Blackbeard the power of darkness/ become darkness himself which is why he can use the power of gravity.
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On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:34 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:28 sc2holar wrote:
Ok, i guess you are right there. Well the point is, i still dont think puma could push himself out of a vortex. You don't have to guess. You can fully believe that I am right there. Also, when Kuma uses his "push" ability for transportation, it's an instant effect. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2580-17/one-piece/chapter-473.html See here for confirmation. As I already showed you, Blackbeard can't negate anything until he touches them. Kuma can just "teleport" himself out. One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed.
You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference.
But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this.
My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage.
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On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.html
yes literally light can't escape him according to oda, but u can always use my argument: oda is wrong.
and his dark gravitation ability can precisely draw in devil fruit user's body according to oda.
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On July 20 2013 00:00 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.htmlyes literally light can't escape him according to oda, but u can always use my argument: oda is wrong.
He didn't argue against you though. He merely said it's not a literal black hole.
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What bothers me about Blackbeards DF (and that he is being hyped as the "Final Boss") is that its actually not that strong when put into perspective. Its a hard counter to Logia fruits, but apart from that, the fact that his fruit actually makes him more vulnerable to damage (due the nature of darkness "sucking everything in") means that a character like Mihawk who relies on immense physical prowess and unmatched swordsmanship (and has not eaten a devil fruit) could cut him to pieces, and the darkness fruit would only serve as a weakness in such an encounter. Even a character like Krieg could do serious damage to BB.
I believe that was the reason why he sought to aquire whitebeards power (wich actually gives him incredible destructive/offensive powers) so that he would stand a better chance against non DF users.
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On July 20 2013 00:03 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:00 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.htmlyes literally light can't escape him according to oda, but u can always use my argument: oda is wrong. He didn't argue against you though. He merely said it's not a literal black hole.
well oda said it is literally a blackhole not only did he name it blackhole, he even have the description of "not even light can escape" he also described it as it sucks in everything, even feeling of pain, and devil fruit powers.
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On July 20 2013 00:04 sc2holar wrote:
What bothers me about Blackbeards DF (and that he is being hyped as the "Final Boss") is that its actually not that strong when put into perspective. Its a hard counter to Logia fruits, but apart from that, the fact that his fruit actually makes him more vulnerable to damage (due the nature of darkness "sucking everything in") means that a character like Mihawk who relies on immense physical prowess and unmatched swordsmanship (and has not eaten a devil fruit) could cut him to pieces, and the darkness fruit would only serve as a weakness in such an encounter. Even a character like Krieg could do serious damage to BB.
I believe that was the reason why he sought to aquire whitebeards power (wich actually gives him incredible destructive/offensive powers) so that he would stand a better chance against non DF users.
If you read that chapter i linked, you can see blackbread has the ability to suck in devil fruit user's bodies. that's his 2nd ability, dont' confuse it with the "blackhole" ability where he make everything sink into his shadow. So anyone with a Devil fruit is at his mercy of his 2nd ability in a fight. So you are right, people without a fruit power has a better chance vs him as they are immune to his 2nd ability.
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On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:34 Frost wrote:[quote] You don't have to guess. You can fully believe that I am right there. Also, when Kuma uses his "push" ability for transportation, it's an instant effect. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2580-17/one-piece/chapter-473.html See here for confirmation. As I already showed you, Blackbeard can't negate anything until he touches them. Kuma can just "teleport" himself out. One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage.
Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF?
I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case.
First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case.
Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here.
Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest.
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On July 20 2013 00:08 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:03 Frost wrote:On July 20 2013 00:00 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 22:43 Milkis wrote:On July 19 2013 22:41 rei wrote:On July 19 2013 21:33 sc2holar wrote:
i think a hypotethical confrontantion between Kizarus Light and Blackbeards Darkness would be more interesting. Logically, they should sort of cancel each others out. Kizaru, being able to move at the speed of light, might even be able to dodge blackbeards vortex by teleporting around several times a second while blasting BB with rays of light. light can not escape blackhole If BB's fruit was a black hole, then half the solar system would be crushed into it the moment he used it. It's not a literal black hole. Actually I'd be curious to see how it was actually described in japanese. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2548-15/one-piece/chapter-441.htmlyes literally light can't escape him according to oda, but u can always use my argument: oda is wrong. He didn't argue against you though. He merely said it's not a literal black hole. well oda said it is literally a blackhole not only did he name it blackhole, he even have the description of "not even light can escape" he also described it as it sucks in everything, even feeling of pain, and devil fruit powers.
You mean Blackbeard named his attack "black hole". Oda is telling you that Darkness has the property of gravity that's akin to a black hole.
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On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:38 sc2holar wrote:[quote] One misconception about the powers of the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi is that it gives its user the ability to transport at will. However, this assumption is incorrect. Rather than teleport, Kuma uses the incredible speed of his Devil Fruit power to propel himself across certain distances http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nikyu_Nikyu_no_Mithere is no proof that that he can push himself away if grabbed by vortex. i would definitely not bet on it. Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest.
The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances.
But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss.
Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash
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On July 20 2013 00:20 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:12 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 23:55 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 23:13 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:54 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:24 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 22:18 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 22:02 Frost wrote:On July 19 2013 21:52 sc2holar wrote:On July 19 2013 21:46 Frost wrote:[quote] Note I used quotation mark since I know it's not an actual teleport effect. I say instant effect as in his fruit power will immediately be used to push himself. Now, I wait for Oda's official confirmation on this particular situation, http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47876-8/one-piece/chapter-576.htmlBut, Whitebeard indeed used his fruit power while in physical contact with Teach and I'll have to credit that to use of Busoshoku Haki. Hypothetically, Kuma's fruit power can do the same if the user is Busoshoku Haki imbued. the point is that Blackbeards vortex essentially works like being dragged by an in incredible force of gravity equal to a black hole, as BB explains to Ace. i think if Kumas push would simply backfire and crush him if he dried to push himself out of a black hole... all kuma could do is push himself to the other side of the planet the moment he sees blackbeard, because once he is grabbed, he is basicly screwed. Going with what we have so far, yes it seems that Kurouzou is irresistible, but we won't know until another Blackbeard vs. ??? happens. It also comes down to the vague and quite inconsistent Haki VS DF equation, wich oda himself doesnt seem to have worked out so far. If Busoshoku Haki simply cancels out the defensive logia powers completlety, then even a paramecia user like DD could theoreticly solo every single character in the series (provided he gets the "surprise advantage") including the admirals and blackbeard, simply by using haki infused strings to slice their heads of (like he almost did to smoker). i personally think the introduction of Busoshoku Haki has the potential to turn every fight between powerful characters into "whoever gets the first strike/jump wins". its a mess, but it had to be introduced in order for luffy to combat logia users. its a tough spot for Oda. Then you have completely misread the manga regarding Busoshoku Haki because you can see in Marineford saga, Vista uses Busoshoku Haki on Akainu and slices his neck, but Akainu does not actually get cut. http://www.mangapanda.com/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.htmlOda will definitely explain this situation at some point, but Busoshoku Haki certainly does not make every fight "whoever gets first strike/jump wins" as you believe. thats the way Rayleight explained it to luffy, pretty much. It seems to be a question of plot inconsistency. when Jozu used it to tackle Crocodile, it completley neglected his logia powers and he was subjected to the damage like an "ordinary" person. Busoshoku Haki has been compared to seastone, and even logia users are said to be unable to recover damage taken while under the effect of seastone (as we know marco the phoenix is the only devil fruit user who is an exception to this rule) I just explained to you that Busoshoku Haki does not cancel out devil fruit powers. Do you not see Akainu still alive even when Vista slices his neck using Busoshoku Haki? http://www.batoto.net/read/_/107517/one-piece_ch671_by_mangarule/7Oda clearly explains the difference between seastone and Busoshoku Haki. Basically Busoshoku Haki allows the user to touch the actual form or body of another. Devil fruit users can still use their powers perfectly fine. Seriously, no offense but I am getting annoyed at you pulling things out of no where. Edit: I just took a look at Rayleigh's description as well. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14Rayleigh merely says Busoshoku Haki can be used to bypass devil fruit powers including Logia intangibility. 2nd Edit: Seastone and Darkness fruit are the only two things known in One Piece world that completely negates devil fruit powers. Obviously logia users are not going to recover damage taken under effect of seastone because their actual bodies are harmed. You miss my point. I never claimed that BH prevents DF users from using their abilities. what i was trying to say (poorly) is that when a logia user suffers injuries from B.H, it somewhat bypasses the nature of their intanglible nature and affects their physical bodies and causes injuries that their logia powers cannot completley heal (this is why it has been compared to damage taken while affected by seastone). Check the Logia fruit page on the one piece wiki for reference. But i think we can all agree on this point to a degree, the problem is that it is not consistent in the manga. the previous examples of vista vs akainu and jozu vs crocodile demonstrates this. My personal theory is that its simply a question about the level of haki of the Attacker vs the Targets Haki Level. it probably works somewhat like "power level" does in One Piece. Despite using Busoshoku Haki, Akainus personal Haki is too strong for Vista to cause any serious damage. Okay, now you are just trying to avoid my argument. When did I say that you claimed that BH prevents DF? I merely pointed out your mistake of somehow concluding that Rayleigh explains Busoshoku Haki as "cancelling out logia's defensive powers completely" which as I showed you is not the case. First of all, I showed you Vista vs. Akainu link because you claimed that "whoever gets first strike/jump with BH wins" which is not the case. Second, in Jozu vs. Crocodile, we don't even know if Jozu used BH. Crocodile only remarks on Jozu's incredible speed and strength. I don't even know what you are trying to argue for here. Simply, there is no inconsistency as you suggest. The reason im "avoiding your arguments" is that there is no point in trying to argue with you because you are obviously right in those instances. But its still a fact that BH CAN be used to KILL logia users. just look at doflamingo tearing up smoker, being only one stroke with his finger away from actually killing him. You are ignoring my point about BH inconsistency, wich is what i am trying to discuss. Edit: If Jozu wasnt using haki there is no way crocodile would have taken damage from his attack. he was actually bleeding from that smash
But I agree with you that BH can be used to kill logia users?
You keep saying there is a BH inconsistency but you never explain?
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EPT
