On June 08 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote: The current dilemma Stannis is in is along the lines of "do we kill this innocent boy, and potentially save thousands or tens of thousands of lives?"
The fact he's currently conflicted in his decision, by going to Davos and forcing Melissandre to verify that such a sacrifice would actually result in what she says. And the fact he's currently conflicted over this (with his two main councilors, Melissandre and Davos on opposite sides of the spectrum) is very telling (in a good way, at least for me).
a little dickleeching doesnt kill you :D
Well, the general implication has been that she wants to do something more, given the leeching was to be a demonstration (as Davos convinced Stannis to not go through with whatever she has planned quite yet).
Though honestly, that was a nice touch. It was probably Joffery's leech.
On June 08 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote: The current dilemma Stannis is in is along the lines of "do we kill this innocent boy, and potentially save thousands or tens of thousands of lives?"
The fact he's currently conflicted in his decision, by going to Davos and forcing Melissandre to verify that such a sacrifice would actually result in what she says. And the fact he's currently conflicted over this (with his two main councilors, Melissandre and Davos on opposite sides of the spectrum) is very telling (in a good way, at least for me).
a little dickleeching doesnt kill you :D
Well, the general implication has been that she wants to do something more, given the leeching was to be a demonstration (as Davos convinced Stannis to not go through with whatever she has planned quite yet).
Though honestly, that was a nice touch. It was probably Joffery's leech.
On June 08 2013 04:07 ore0z wrote: It feels more like little finger wants the iron throne himself, not just lands and titles. In a deleted scene he's seen looking upon the iron throne, talking with varys he tells him how many swords there are on the iron throne and then the speech about the latter ladder.
He might be playing a longer game
Edit: ladder not latter
That scene wasn't deleted. He's definitely got big plans, and as time progresses he looks more and more dangerous. We haven't heard from him in awhile, because there have been more important things going on, but he's out there.
Speaking of characters we haven't seen for awhile, I wonder how Theon is holding up.
On June 08 2013 04:07 ore0z wrote: It feels more like little finger wants the iron throne himself, not just lands and titles. In a deleted scene he's seen looking upon the iron throne, talking with varys he tells him how many swords there are on the iron throne and then the speech about the latter ladder.
He might be playing a longer game
Edit: ladder not latter
That scene wasn't deleted. He's definitely got big plans, and as time progresses he looks more and more dangerous. We haven't heard from him in awhile, because there have been more important things going on, but he's out there.
Speaking of characters we haven't seen for awhile, I wonder how Theon is holding up.
Littlefinger could certainly be out for power. I can't stop thinking of him as Tommy Carcetti which makes me have some appreciation for him, but in reality he's a total shitbag of a character. Varys is really sympathetic by contrast, hard not to like him. I also find myself irrationally liking the Hound. Despite the fact that he's a ruthless SoB, him saving Sansa resonated with me. I imagine that he actually regretted killing the butcher's boy despite his bravado. And that was one of the things that contributed to his epic 'fuck the king' line.
Also arguably saving Arya from the Bolton/Frey massacre was a good act. Of course he could not realise that the Starks he was searching have all been killed and still be expecting to collect his reward but perhaps he just did it because he didn't want to see her killed like that.
I also agree that Stannis does seem like a pretty reasonable person, he seems like he is constantly fighting his urge to resist Melisandre because he has seen that she can get shit done, even though he (afaik) regretted Renly's death. Btw can someone remind me why the hell Renly even thought he had a claim to the throne? Stannis seems like he would be a pretty decent ruler, at least more conscientious than Robert.
My favourite character is King Jeoffry. The true ruler of the seven kingdoms! I hope in next episode we'll see him kill Jon Snow, Arya Stark and Bran, not to talk about the baby stark boy whose been irrelevant so far...
Make it happen George RR Martin, you don't want to start disappointing us now!
I also agree that Stannis does seem like a pretty reasonable person, he seems like he is constantly fighting his urge to resist Melisandre because he has seen that she can get shit done, even though he (afaik) regretted Renly's death. Btw can someone remind me why the hell Renly even thought he had a claim to the throne? Stannis seems like he would be a pretty decent ruler, at least more conscientious than Robert.
Renly didn't have any claim to the throne, he just thought that he would be a better king than Stannis. His older brother is a very grim and strict person. On the other hand Renly was very likeable and very good at finding allies (for example the deal with Starks right before he died). That is why he had such a big support.
On June 08 2013 00:01 Stratos_speAr wrote: She doesn't necessarily have to put on armor and lead a charge, but she still hasn't done anything. All of the actual logistics are left to the competent servants she has. The only things she's actually done out of her own accord and effort were 1) getting some respect from Khal Drogo so she can treat the women better and 2) tricking the leader of Astapor so he gets roasted (but let's not forget that she immediately orders the slaughter of countless people right after this).
You do realize you can downplay any non-martial character's accomplishments that way, right?
By all rights, she should have been mass raped or sold/taken into slavery the very moment Drogo died. She had no real " protection" once he was gone, and if looks were her only asset, this is exactly what would have happened (and what would have happened to anybody else in her position). This was before the dragons hatched and "she walked in some fire", mind you.
The people that follow her aren't the kind of people that would blindly follow a teenage girl on a nigh impossible quest just because they think she's hot. Neither would a savage tribal chief like Drogo come to respect and even defer to her because of that. She certainly wasn't being compared to Rhaegar because of her looks.
The eggs were a wedding gift, but gifts can easily be taken away. What could she have done against anybody who wanted to take the eggs, or even hatched Dragons the size of a chicken? It's like taking candy from a little girl - in fact that's actually exactly what it would be.
If she managed to do all that by, as you say, not lifting a finger - than that's only a testament to the greatness inherent to her character.
No, it's not.
You are exactly right; she could've been raped and had all of her stuff (including the eggs) taken away. However, they weren't. But was it because of things she did? No. It boils down to pure luck, which is exactly my point. Dany didn't go out and fight the epic fight and win the ability to keep the eggs or not be raped; she was protected by the couple people still loyal to Drogo, and the rest just left. Viserys tried to take her eggs once (while she was under the protection of both Jorah and the entire Dothraki horde). Your giving credit to her character when it was all luck or circumstance which was largely out of her control.
Dany was incredibly lucky to end up where she was. She absolutely did some things right and is, on the whole, a fairly good person. That said, it's incredibly naive, ignorant, and idealistic to try to paint her as this awesome paragon of virtue that put hard work and dedication into everything that she's gotten and always does good things. An extreme run of good luck and a streak of selfishness has gotten her the majority of the power she has now.
People are not loyal for fun. It takes an extraordinary character to create an army from scratch. Ask Joan of Arc.
Was she lucky ? Yes. Was it pure luck ? No. Picture Sansa, an ordinary girl, in Dany's place. Would she have survived ? No. Dany did what she did because of exceptional traits like willpower; ideals and ruthlessness.
@ Aegon, perhaps putting that in spoilers would help (if only to cut down on the space it takes up).
@ Sent, Renly's claim to the throne was the shakiest of them all. Of the Five Kings, two are claiming themselves independent (Balon and Robb), while of the three contenders to the Iron Throne, Joffery has the claim by rights if he is trueborn, and Stannis in the event that Robert's three children with Cersei are bastards. Renly's next in line to succession to Stannis, not before, and was pointblank about the lack of a legal claim while Stannis was alive and well ("my friends will make me king"), while ignoring blood and family. This contrasts markedly with Stannis, who, while uncharismatic ("he has the personality of a lobster"), is above all else dutiful, doing whatever was required of him or asked of him by Robert (even enduring the insult of being given Dragonstone over Storms End). That, and despite Stannis' attempt to remind him of the legal succession, Renly was set on pressing forward his illegal claim (up to and including killing Stannis in battle with his vastly superior army). Certainly, the shadow baby was a ways to go (and Stannis is conflicted about it), but eh.
Wow holy shit never knew about those videos ^. That was awesome :D. I'm impressed Stannis had any compunction at all about Renly's death, given how ridiculous it was that Renly claimed the throne and was ready to do battle with his own brother just to get it. He should have honoured his older brother!
The videos are put out by HBO every DVD season (so there's the Season 1 and Season 2 Lore videos out), which generally covers a shitton of important lore.
One of the reasons why I speculate that a LoL/R'hllor video will be put out with this season's DVD (whenever it comes out), given one covering the Old Gods/New Gods were put out in Season 1, and the growing prominence of the Lord of Light in the story, both Beric and the BWB, and Melissandre means that it would be natural for them to give us one covering their beliefs, tenants, and motivations. Because presently, we don't really have an all-to-clear picture of Melissandre's motives, or even what her religion is about and its core beliefs. Why is their sigil a flaming heart? Why the importance of fire? We get some of it from Beric, but it's not really that clear.
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
On June 08 2013 06:16 Dosey wrote: While we're on the subject of Renly...
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
Mostly because they don't like each other if you havn't noticed; Renly is convinced he would make a far far far better king than Stannis.
On June 08 2013 06:16 Dosey wrote: While we're on the subject of Renly...
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
There is like 5 years or maybe 10 years between them (I do not know exactly). So Renly could maybe have the throne in 40 years for like 10 years if everything goes the natural way. Or he could even die before Stannis in 30 years or whatever. Also Stannis could still get another heir in those 40 remaining years. So your idea does not make much sense for him.
On June 08 2013 06:16 Dosey wrote: While we're on the subject of Renly...
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
The line of potential conspirators would indeed be long; there is no love for Stannis in King's Landing (which is in my opinion a good thing). Look at Varys for instance.
But why? Well, because Loras thinks he would be the best king. To be sure, Renly would be the best dressed king, but best king? Ehhh... To be sure, he isn't depicted as being after power for the sake of power, but merely because he's been persuaded that he would indeed be the best candidate (despite being completely unproven and having an illegal claim).
EDIT: Also, yes, the Baratheon brothers don't/didn't really like each other. Conflicting personalities/family spats and all.
On June 08 2013 06:16 Dosey wrote: While we're on the subject of Renly...
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
There is like 5 years or maybe 10 years between them (I do not know exactly). So Renly could maybe have the throne in 40 years for like 10 years if everything goes the natural way. Or he could even die before Stannis in 30 years or whatever. Also Stannis could still get another heir in those 40 remaining years. So your idea does not make much sense for him.
Odds are Stannis wouldn't get another heir through Selise and wouldn't conspire to kill her because of his "honor". Renly have the throne in 40 years? Are you mad? Robert had it for ~15 in a time of PEACE and was pretty much well loved by everyone. This is a time of war. Krakens, Lions, and Dragons, oh my. Odds are that if the Stress didn't kill him, one of those three would find a way to do it and Renly could possibly help the plans along the way.
On June 08 2013 06:16 Dosey wrote: While we're on the subject of Renly...
Renly's refusal to join Stannis never made much sense to me. It is pretty well known that Selise hasn't given Stannis a trueborn son (and probably cant) and Shireen has greyscale. In the line of succession after Stannis, Renly would basically be next. So why not just go along with Stannis and arrange for Shireen to die of "complications", effectively making himself the next in line. No one wants a Queen with greyscale anyway, so who would really give a fuck? Hell, there'd probably be a line of potential conspirators to help him out.
There is like 5 years or maybe 10 years between them (I do not know exactly). So Renly could maybe have the throne in 40 years for like 10 years if everything goes the natural way. Or he could even die before Stannis in 30 years or whatever. Also Stannis could still get another heir in those 40 remaining years. So your idea does not make much sense for him.
Odds are Stannis wouldn't get another heir through Selise and wouldn't conspire to kill her because of his "honor". Renly have the throne in 40 years? Are you mad? Robert had it for ~15 in a time of PEACE and was pretty much well loved by everyone. This is a time of war. Krakens, Lions, and Dragons, oh my. Odds are that if the Stress didn't kill him, one of those three would find a way to do it and Renly could possibly help the plans along the way.
Robert really wasn't that well loved, considering he was commonly named "the Usurper". The state of the realm and the talk amongst the Great Houses was enough that Balon Greyjoy (erroneously) thought he could get away with rebelling and breaking away, not to mention the condition that Robert left the kingdom in (in heavy debt to Casterly Rock and the Iron Bank of Braavos, as Tyrion finds out [though Littlefinger may have had something to do with it]).
But your point about the lifespan of kings is well noted.
EPT
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