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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 07 2013 21:26 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:
Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted My brain is full of fuck. Did you miss the part where Jaime just murdered the other guy in the cage by bashing his brains out just to aid his escape? Wasn't that guy actually a Lannister?
Jaime has done many bad things yes. But to lable him as evil based on some of his actions is simplfying it.
He's not pure evil at the core.
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On June 08 2013 01:32 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 00:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:
She doesn't necessarily have to put on armor and lead a charge, but she still hasn't done anything. All of the actual logistics are left to the competent servants she has. The only things she's actually done out of her own accord and effort were 1) getting some respect from Khal Drogo so she can treat the women better and 2) tricking the leader of Astapor so he gets roasted (but let's not forget that she immediately orders the slaughter of countless people right after this). You do realize you can downplay any non-martial character's accomplishments that way, right? By all rights, she should have been mass raped or sold/taken into slavery the very moment Drogo died. She had no real " protection" once he was gone, and if looks were her only asset, this is exactly what would have happened (and what would have happened to anybody else in her position). This was before the dragons hatched and "she walked in some fire", mind you. The people that follow her aren't the kind of people that would blindly follow a teenage girl on a nigh impossible quest just because they think she's hot. Neither would a savage tribal chief like Drogo come to respect and even defer to her because of that. She certainly wasn't being compared to Rhaegar because of her looks. The eggs were a wedding gift, but gifts can easily be taken away. What could she have done against anybody who wanted to take the eggs, or even hatched Dragons the size of a chicken? It's like taking candy from a little girl - in fact that's actually exactly what it would be. If she managed to do all that by, as you say, not lifting a finger - than that's only a testament to the greatness inherent to her character.
No, it's not.
You are exactly right; she could've been raped and had all of her stuff (including the eggs) taken away. However, they weren't. But was it because of things she did? No. It boils down to pure luck, which is exactly my point. Dany didn't go out and fight the epic fight and win the ability to keep the eggs or not be raped; she was protected by the couple people still loyal to Drogo, and the rest just left. Viserys tried to take her eggs once (while she was under the protection of both Jorah and the entire Dothraki horde). Your giving credit to her character when it was all luck or circumstance which was largely out of her control.
Dany was incredibly lucky to end up where she was. She absolutely did some things right and is, on the whole, a fairly good person. That said, it's incredibly naive, ignorant, and idealistic to try to paint her as this awesome paragon of virtue that put hard work and dedication into everything that she's gotten and always does good things. An extreme run of good luck and a streak of selfishness has gotten her the majority of the power she has now.
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On June 08 2013 02:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:16 sc4k wrote:On June 08 2013 01:09 Nebuchad wrote:
Wooooo. You're spending way too much time discussing which people are good and which people are bad.
People aren't good or bad. People are people. When they do good things, they're good. When they do evil things, they're bad. It's not contradictory for someone to be completely good one day and completely evil the next. Now depending how you want to paint the person, you can look at either the good or the bad stuff.
Discussing which characters are good in Martin's world is missing the point by a mile. It's pretty sad, really, that you are still stuck on this. Thinking that all people are on some equal level of morality just because they are capable of bad and good is so facile and missing the point. I guess you ought to tell Martin, he's been on several interviews telling people about how that was the point... He's writing the story and he's missing the point, that's pretty bad for the story, wouldn't you say?
Not really, he can write it from whatever level of understanding he wants. He might call humans neutral moral agents who can perform good or bad acts and that those actions cannot reflect onto the humans themselves, but I would tend to disagree with him. I still believe that different people have different tendencies towards good or bad acts depending on their personalities and therefore the ones who tend towards compassion and charity are good and the ones who tend towards selfishness and cruelty are bad. Not that either can't do good or bad actions.
On June 08 2013 02:31 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:26 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:
Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted My brain is full of fuck. Did you miss the part where Jaime just murdered the other guy in the cage by bashing his brains out just to aid his escape? Wasn't that guy actually a Lannister? Jaime has done many bad things yes. But to lable him as evil based on some of his actions is simplfying it. He's not pure evil at the core.
Of course he isn't, he's not that bad. But then again he did kill a guy in cold blood just to escape a cage. So he is definitely not a good guy.
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On June 08 2013 02:09 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:33 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
I'd say Tyrion is a better person then Dany by far really. He gave Bran blue prints to be able to ride a horse again, defended thousand of innocent lives at Kings landing while risking his own against attackers, defended Sansa Stark from Joffrey to the best of his ability and when forced to marry her didn't consummate the marriage because he knew she didn't want to. Tyrion is definitely a good person but because he is not a major player he does not count. There are plenty of good people in the show but who are not actively aiming for the throne. I was originally (AGES BACK) saying that Dany is the only sensible choice to root for to get the throne if you support good people and good actions.
The former Hand of the King and current Master of Coin and new Lord of Winterfell is not a major player.
Wait, what? o.O
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On June 08 2013 02:33 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:09 sc4k wrote:On June 08 2013 01:33 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
I'd say Tyrion is a better person then Dany by far really. He gave Bran blue prints to be able to ride a horse again, defended thousand of innocent lives at Kings landing while risking his own against attackers, defended Sansa Stark from Joffrey to the best of his ability and when forced to marry her didn't consummate the marriage because he knew she didn't want to. Tyrion is definitely a good person but because he is not a major player he does not count. There are plenty of good people in the show but who are not actively aiming for the throne. I was originally (AGES BACK) saying that Dany is the only sensible choice to root for to get the throne if you support good people and good actions. The former Hand of the King and current Master of Coin and new Lord of Winterfell is not a major player. Wait, what? o.O
Hey if Tyrion has any designs on the throne then I would fully support him but I don't think he does. But maybe he does. But until he does, I support Khaleesi 100%. If Tyrion 'declares' for the throne I'll give him 50% support 
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On June 08 2013 02:34 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:33 Conti wrote:On June 08 2013 02:09 sc4k wrote:On June 08 2013 01:33 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
I'd say Tyrion is a better person then Dany by far really. He gave Bran blue prints to be able to ride a horse again, defended thousand of innocent lives at Kings landing while risking his own against attackers, defended Sansa Stark from Joffrey to the best of his ability and when forced to marry her didn't consummate the marriage because he knew she didn't want to. Tyrion is definitely a good person but because he is not a major player he does not count. There are plenty of good people in the show but who are not actively aiming for the throne. I was originally (AGES BACK) saying that Dany is the only sensible choice to root for to get the throne if you support good people and good actions. The former Hand of the King and current Master of Coin and new Lord of Winterfell is not a major player. Wait, what? o.O Hey if Tyrion has any designs on the throne then I would fully support him but I don't think he does. But maybe he does. But until he does, I support Khaleesi 100%. If Tyrion 'declares' for the throne I'll give him 50% support
Oh. I suppose I missed how this is a discussion of the merits of Dany, Joffrey and Stannis only. Weren't you guys talking about Jaime for half the time, though?
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On June 08 2013 02:33 Conti wrote:
The former Hand of the King and current Master of Coin and new Lord of Winterfell is not a major player.
Wait, what? o.O
Being the former Hand of the King doesn't help him at all in his new position. Actually Tywin came exactly at the right time to steal the benefits of Tyrion's defense of King's Landing.
Last time I saw Winterfell it was burned to the ground and the war is still going on, so that title is a "honorary" one at best.
As a Master of Coin he has to deal with a frustrating task and doesn't even get any real influence. Tywin is controlling everything at the moment.
So I wouldn't consider him a major player right now. All he can do is watch while Tywin's plans unfold.
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On June 08 2013 02:30 Gene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:03 thOr6136 wrote:On June 08 2013 01:59 Gene wrote:On June 08 2013 01:42 SpiZe wrote:
How can you describe characters as good or bad in TV show that isn't even over yet ? To me, judging a character as black or white happens when you have complete information on said character, and even then, it's often impossible to judge. Some are easy : (history reference : Hitler, but even then you could look at his first 40 years of life and conclude he's a good guy. That's why it's important to have full picture (in before : he was a good guy during his first 40 years of life, still doesnt make him a good guy overall)) but they are rare. You can judge people in their action and determine whether or not they are good in specific domain, however judging them overall is very hard.
Heck I could make an argument as to Joffrey being a better ruler than Dany, doesnt make him a better person than Dany. Redemption can only get you so far. Once you do something terrible, you're bad. The good people still have a chance to be bad, sure. But bad is bad. Wouldn't you agree that realizing you did wrong and admitting it would make a mistake forgivable (with or without punishment but still forgivable) and thus making a person better? oh, I don't know. if Jaime recognized he was wrong in pushing Bran out a window, would his potential forgiveness let Bran walk again? no. he crippled a child.
You can point with fingers on things that happened and stay there. A deed is a deed and you can not change that, ever. What you can do is forgive if a person truly realizes that he/she made a mistake. Basically it's a matter of perspective. If you are not able to forgive then idk how you can live.
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Stannis is the only truly moral character in the series, he will do anything for the greater good.
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Do i smell books? :D
nice edit^ 
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I wouldn't say Stannis is doing what he does for the "greater good", he wants the throne, its all a power grab. The only person who seems to be utilitarian or for the "greater good" imo would be lord Varys. He describes his own motives to Little Finger with the phrase "For the realm".
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On June 08 2013 02:58 Ghost-z wrote:
I wouldn't say Stannis is doing what he does for the "greater good", he wants the throne, its all a power grab. The only person who seems to be utilitarian or for the "greater good" imo would be lord Varys. He describes his own motives to Little Finger with the phrase "For the realm".
But in his point of view the realm has been usurped by evil guys, who can he save that which he does not fully control, stannins will never bend to the will of his enemies.
Also, dont forget that despite Robb's king of the north shenanigans, his father supported Stannis claim, he is the rightfull king from the honored point of view, Stannis just want to rid his realm of all these thiefs and pretenders.
The one true god himself send a prophet to him to help him do all that is possible to asure light triumphs over the darkness.
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On June 08 2013 02:58 Ghost-z wrote:
I wouldn't say Stannis is doing what he does for the "greater good", he wants the throne, its all a power grab. The only person who seems to be utilitarian or for the "greater good" imo would be lord Varys. He describes his own motives to Little Finger with the phrase "For the realm".
Stannis doesn't really want the throne, but since he is the heir of Robert and rightfully his he sees it as his duty. If it's a power grab it's Melisandre's power grab.
I actually have no idea what Stannis would have done with his claim to the throne if Melisandre had not been there and manipulated him.
As for Varys, well, he may say it's "For the realm" but I don't really know more about his motivations than I do about Littlefinger's.
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On June 08 2013 03:12 shaippen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:58 Ghost-z wrote:
I wouldn't say Stannis is doing what he does for the "greater good", he wants the throne, its all a power grab. The only person who seems to be utilitarian or for the "greater good" imo would be lord Varys. He describes his own motives to Little Finger with the phrase "For the realm". Stannis doesn't really want the throne, but since he is the heir of Robert and rightfully his he sees it as his duty. If it's a power grab it's Melisandre's power grab. I actually have no idea what Stannis would have done with his claim to the throne if Melisandre had not been there and manipulated him. As for Varys, well, he may say it's "For the realm" but I don't really know more about his motivations than I do about Littlefinger's.
Theres some foreshadowing of his position on that phrase alone
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On June 08 2013 03:12 shaippen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:58 Ghost-z wrote:
I wouldn't say Stannis is doing what he does for the "greater good", he wants the throne, its all a power grab. The only person who seems to be utilitarian or for the "greater good" imo would be lord Varys. He describes his own motives to Little Finger with the phrase "For the realm". Stannis doesn't really want the throne, but since he is the heir of Robert and rightfully his he sees it as his duty. If it's a power grab it's Melisandre's power grab. I actually have no idea what Stannis would have done with his claim to the throne if Melisandre had not been there and manipulated him. As for Varys, well, he may say it's "For the realm" but I don't really know more about his motivations than I do about Littlefinger's.
Varys in one of my favorite characters for that exact reason. He is the only one left who's agenda is completely unknown to me. At least little finger's ambition of a title, army, and castle are clear. Varys worked his way up from nothing for what? To live his life consistently on the edge "for the realm"?
I really hope we get to see another side of him whenever they get around to showing us him dealing with the warlock who cut him (remember varys had him shipped to him in a box!) I want to see varys get medieval on a fool!! -- still wouldn't give much insight to his agenda though.
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The current dilemma Stannis is in is along the lines of "do we kill this innocent boy, and potentially save thousands or tens of thousands of lives?"
He's currently conflicted in his decision, by going to Davos and forcing Melissandre to verify that such a sacrifice would actually result in what she says. And the fact he's currently conflicted over this (with his two main councilors, Melissandre and Davos on opposite sides of the spectrum) is very telling (in a good way, at least for me).
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daenerys seems pretty stupid/naive, in all honesty. Her storyline is too perfect so far, I can't see that lasting. Jorah seems to want her and the Daario guy is one big cockblock. She keeps winning-at some point she's going to lose big I think. Same thing happened with Robb, he won a lot initially and it all seemed to be going according to plan...and then bam he's dead.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Tyrion + Jaime though. They're two of my favorite characters in the series. Dany is probably my least favorite lol
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It feels more like little finger wants the iron throne himself, not just lands and titles.
In a deleted scene he's seen looking upon the iron throne, talking with varys he tells him how many swords there are on the iron throne and then the speech about the latter ladder.
He might be playing a longer game
Edit: ladder not latter
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On June 08 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:
The current dilemma Stannis is in is along the lines of "do we kill this innocent boy, and potentially save thousands or tens of thousands of lives?"
The fact he's currently conflicted in his decision, by going to Davos and forcing Melissandre to verify that such a sacrifice would actually result in what she says. And the fact he's currently conflicted over this (with his two main councilors, Melissandre and Davos on opposite sides of the spectrum) is very telling (in a good way, at least for me).
a little dickleeching doesnt kill you :D
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On June 08 2013 04:07 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 04:03 Lord Tolkien wrote:
The current dilemma Stannis is in is along the lines of "do we kill this innocent boy, and potentially save thousands or tens of thousands of lives?"
The fact he's currently conflicted in his decision, by going to Davos and forcing Melissandre to verify that such a sacrifice would actually result in what she says. And the fact he's currently conflicted over this (with his two main councilors, Melissandre and Davos on opposite sides of the spectrum) is very telling (in a good way, at least for me). a little dickleeching doesnt kill you :D
Well, the general implication has been that she wants to do something more, given the leeching was to be a demonstration (as Davos convinced Stannis to not go through with whatever she has planned quite yet).
Though honestly, that was a nice touch. It was probably Joffery's leech.
:p
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EPT
