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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. You are missing the point of jaime then. He killed the king because the mad king was going to burn kings landing to the ground and kill the entire population. Knightly vows can contradict itself. Protect the king but also protect the innocent. So you are going to let a king burn an entire city down ? Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted
The other factor was also the king told him to bring Jamie Father's head to him.
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On June 07 2013 18:56 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of). Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne.
Well, she did kill the BFF servant girl, because she shared the bed with the black merchant dude.
She didn't literally get blood on her hands, but locking them in the vault pretty much equals death.
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On June 07 2013 21:00 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:56 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of). Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne. Well, she did kill the BFF servant girl, because she shared the bed with the black merchant dude. She didn't literally get blood on her hands, but locking them in the vault pretty much equals death.
That was so weird and bad. I really liked her, too. Killing your close friend out of anger is very "not good" and shortsighted. I think it defines Daenerys quite well
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On June 07 2013 21:00 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:56 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of). Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne. Well, she did kill the BFF servant girl, because she shared the bed with the black merchant dude. She didn't literally get blood on her hands, but locking them in the vault pretty much equals death.
Wait my memory of this is hazy. I thought it was because the servant girl like was 'in league' with the guy and was teaming up with him to betray Danaerys. She wasn't innocent?!
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On June 07 2013 21:08 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:00 zimms wrote:On June 07 2013 18:56 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of). Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne. Well, she did kill the BFF servant girl, because she shared the bed with the black merchant dude. She didn't literally get blood on her hands, but locking them in the vault pretty much equals death. Wait my memory of this is hazy. I thought it was because the servant girl like was 'in league' with the guy and was teaming up with him to betray Danaerys. She wasn't innocent?!
Indeed. It was not about her sleeping with him of course.
All of Dany's other staff was killed, Doreah wasnt. It is implied she betrayed Dany.
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On June 07 2013 21:01 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:00 zimms wrote:On June 07 2013 18:56 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of). Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne. Well, she did kill the BFF servant girl, because she shared the bed with the black merchant dude. She didn't literally get blood on her hands, but locking them in the vault pretty much equals death. That was so weird and bad. I really liked her, too. Killing your close friend out of anger is very "not good" and shortsighted. I think it defines Daenerys quite well
Dude, she locked her in the vault because Doreah betrayed her.
If you watched the cut scene for season 2 on youtube (don't have the link handy sorry) you'll see that she was also the one who murdered Irri.
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On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. You are missing the point of jaime then. He killed the king because the mad king was going to burn kings landing to the ground and kill the entire population. Knightly vows can contradict itself. Protect the king but also protect the innocent. So you are going to let a king burn an entire city down ? Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted
And he fucks his sister?....
Why does no one mention that?
Either way, last episode was crazy!
Who would of expected Robb Stark to die? And in such a silly matter...
Was rooting for him as well.
Oh and another thing, since Brann Stark controlled Hodor... you think he will be able to control a dragon as well?
That could be a real game changer when the time comes.
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On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:
Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted
My brain is full of fuck. Did you miss the part where Jaime just murdered the other guy in the cage by bashing his brains out just to aid his escape? Wasn't that guy actually a Lannister?
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On June 07 2013 21:22 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. You are missing the point of jaime then. He killed the king because the mad king was going to burn kings landing to the ground and kill the entire population. Knightly vows can contradict itself. Protect the king but also protect the innocent. So you are going to let a king burn an entire city down ? Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted And he fucks his sister?.... Why does no one mention that?
Presumably because few on TL seem to find incest intrinsically immoral, as you'd see from the somewhat disturbing number of times the topic pops up here. That's a reasonable stance, though in Jaime's case there are a lot of extrinsic considerations.
edit:
One weird thing I've noticed is that it's often brought up in discussion of Jaime, but rarely in discussions of Cersei. Maybe this is just because she hasn't done enough good for it to be worthwhile adding up the wrongs, maybe also some gendered implicit biases about sexual agency. Jaime, after all, is the one who has always been "faithful" to her. She's even slept with other Lannisters.
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On June 07 2013 19:53 -Archangel- wrote:
I cannot really give a good answer here because it would involve book knowledge but I don't agree with you and can tell you why in other thread or through PM.
I believe comments like this should be punished as spoilers. You're saying he's wrong based on knowledge from the books, even though it's just your opinion and you didn't spell it out word-for-word. Furthermore, a statement like this contributes nothing to the thread, besides "I know something you don't know".
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ok, time to stop reading this tread... you cant post here what happens in book 5
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Zurich15361 Posts
Alright please stop the meta-moderation discussion in here.
If you have an issue with a post or with how this thread is moderated use the report function or make a thread in Website Feedback.
The only thing worse than the regular Who is the best swordman argument is this constant discussion how spoilers are supposed to be moderated. Just keep it out of this thread and try to stay on topic please.
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On June 07 2013 21:26 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 20:16 jj33 wrote:
Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted My brain is full of fuck. Did you miss the part where Jaime just murdered the other guy in the cage by bashing his brains out just to aid his escape? Wasn't that guy actually a Lannister?
book spoilers
User was temp banned for this post.
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I can't believe people are debating whether Jamie is "good" or "bad" based on him killing the Mad King (which he did to save the entire population of King's Landing), when pushing Brann to his supposed death and coldly killing his cousin to have a shot at escaping the Stark prison camp are imo way more morally reprehensible.
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On June 07 2013 21:52 kwizach wrote:
I can't believe people are debating whether Jamie is "good" or "bad" based on him killing the Mad King (which he did to save the entire population of King's Landing), when pushing Brann to his supposed death and coldly killing his cousin to have a shot at escaping the Stark prison camp are imo way more morally reprehensible.
Imo the worst thing he has done was sleeping with the king's wife and trying to pass off his children as the king's own. I imagine that is about the worst crime you can commit in Westeros. And it lead to a huge war with tens or hundreds of thousands of dead. He cant repay that by rescuing one woman from a bear.
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How did Jamie get away with killing the Mad King ? Were another knights like no bigie he was asshole anyways.
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The entire discussion of whether a character is "good" or "bad" is kind of stupid, given that almost all characters are deliberately written as being neither.
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On June 07 2013 21:55 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:52 kwizach wrote:
I can't believe people are debating whether Jamie is "good" or "bad" based on him killing the Mad King (which he did to save the entire population of King's Landing), when pushing Brann to his supposed death and coldly killing his cousin to have a shot at escaping the Stark prison camp are imo way more morally reprehensible. Imo the worst thing he has done was sleeping with the king's wife and trying to pass off his children as the king's own. I imagine that is about the worst crime you can commit in Westeros. And it lead to a huge war with tens or hundreds of thousands of dead. He cant repay that by rescuing one woman from a bear.
Oh come on, incest is less morally reprehensible than killing an innocent person. If immorality is a scale of 1-10, incest is about 3 and murder of innocents is 9/10.
On June 07 2013 22:03 Conti wrote:
The entire discussion of whether a character is "good" or "bad" is kind of stupid, given that almost all characters are deliberately written as being neither.
Not really, different characters have different levels of good and bad in them. Just like real life. Not everyone is equal in terms of morality, for different reasons of course.
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On June 07 2013 21:59 NIIINO wrote:
How did Jamie get away with killing the Mad King ? Were another knights like no bigie he was asshole anyways.
You swear fealty to the new king, he pardons you. Ser Barristan mentions that he killed about half a dozen of Roberts buddies in the Rebellion and still stayed head of the Kingsguard (but was not invited to the small council).
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EPT
