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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity
jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back.
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On June 07 2013 18:15 tertos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 16:26 sc4k wrote:On June 07 2013 16:19 sickle wrote:
Don't forget that simply 'freeing' everyone does not necessarily guarantee a better life. They now have the freedom to starve, since their entire institution that was build upon feeding them and guaranteeing somewhat of a life, is gone.
When Rome, a slave-owning institution, fell, life didn't suddenly and miraculously improve. Burning every single citizen of ancient Rome to the ground, leaving it in ashes for the 'freed' slaves. Wait did that (bolded part) even happen? Yes murdering all the citizens of Astapor would be a terrible act. But she didn't. She allowed the slaves to kill their slave masters. Even if it is not guaranteeing them a better life, freeing slaves is the only right act to do. Especially when considering Dany's position of relative weakness and the fact that she wouldn't be able to, like a modern nation, be able to install rulers and attempt to bring the city out of its moral doldrums. Since when allowing the victim to become judge and executioner has become a moral standard?
The oppressed have always had the moral right to rebel against their oppressors. Obviously it's less than ideal that it involves mass murder, but not even that can undermine the righteousness of their purpose.
On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:
jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back.
He sacrificed his honor (at least the superficial kind that others will judge him by) to save thousands.
That nets him a positive mark in my book.
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to sc.am:
Did you watch the episode where he poured his heart out and gave his reasoning as to why?
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On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity
And I can't believe you think this. Dany has not done anything to harm innocents. Jaime attempted to murder Bran. The fact that Jaime will do this without compunction means that he is clearly not a good person (but let me add he does certainly have redeeming features and is by no means evil - he's still a pretty decent person when all's said and done- but doesn't go out of his way to protect innocents). Dany's methods of retribution may be a little over the top but her motivation is always from a good place.
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On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back.
Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals.
And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side.
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On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side.
But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only.
In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference.
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On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference.
Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents.
Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of).
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On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference.
Who you kill doesn't make a difference. Why you kill doesn't make a difference. In the end, you're both killers. I don't blame Dany nor Jaime for killing those that they killed, but I definitely don't think that Dany is a saint.
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On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents. Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of).
Dany's murdering the witch was the most morally reprehensible thing she's done, but she has still not killed or attempted to kill anyone innocent. I feel that Dany's actions show she is a good person with an 'edge', which is clearly the best possible thing to be. You can't just be a doormat and mother teresa, you have to have a sense of kingly vengeance otherwise you will never be able to rise to the top. But she is the best possible person who could rise to the throne.
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Does she really kill to protect others? Or can she just not stand to see innocents (or the disadvantaged) stomped on by those with advantage? I think this goes back to what Tolkien has been saying about her being very short-sighted in terms of statecraft. Yes, she raised an army, but gutted a town which will have many, many people left to suffer through the aftermath, and this army is to achieve a selfish goal of her own, which is to take back the iron throne for her family. I think her choices are drawn from conceit more than anything, but she has convinced herself that she is the moral authority.
These attributes have ended up assisting her in her conquest, but do not by any means make her a 'good' person.
Jamie will kill a boy (1/XX,000,000) to protect a secret that will end his and his sister's lives, but will betray an oath (which one, etc?) to save thousands of people.
Dany will not kill innocents or women or children (that she directly sees), but will destabilize local states which will cause countless casualties to bolster her war efforts.
Where is the line?
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On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side.
I don't like dany at all.
She seems to have a sense of justice and an obsession for slaves but always act out of self-interest and in a cruel way.
She broke her deal in a viscious manner and killed the masters in Astapor because the guy was being a huge dick to her and because she wanted to keep her drake. She cares about the slaves but yet can't see the consequencies of her acts.
The way she handled dario showed aggain that she is sly and strange and im sure her attitude will become worse and worse.
Dany ain't one of the good character if you seek them. She's crazy, selfish, short-sighted, arrogant and has an obsession for slaves. Do you know her motivations? Vengeance on her mad father and take the throne because she's the rightful heir.
Some good characters are Tyrion, Snow, Bran, the onion knight, Osha etc... I don't see any king or leader that is good exept for beric perhaps
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On June 07 2013 19:01 Badgerdavis wrote:
Dany will not kill innocents or women or children (that she directly sees), but will destabilize local states which will cause countless casualties to bolster her war efforts.
The thing is, you can't hold her ineptitude and shortsightedness as a ruler against her in the context of a discussion about morality. She's basically a kid - a kid that's been through a lot, but a kid nonetheless. Especially in matters of state and governing that she has little to no knowledge and experience of. It is very well possible that she doesn't see or understand the full long term consequences of her actions.
In terms of her general moral compass, she did what she thought was in the best interest of the people of Astapor (considering her own interests as well, obviously). It remains to be seen what the consequences of her actions end up being, and how she will react to them.
On June 07 2013 19:02 Acertos wrote:
Dany ain't one of the good character if you seek them. She's crazy, selfish, short-sighted, arrogant and has an obsession for slaves. Do you know her motivations? Vengeance on her mad father and take the throne because she's the rightful heir.
Some good characters are Tyrion, Snow, Bran, the onion knight, Osha etc... I don't see any king or leader that is good exept for beric perhaps
If Dany's only goal is the Iron Throne, then Tyrion's only goal is Casterly Rock. Tyrion is still a Lannister pawn through and through, and everything he does is driven by the interests of his house so that he can get his dad to like him more.
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Acertos you're just twisting events. Dany has compassion for innocent and weak people. She doesn't take any bullshit from people who screw with her or inflict pain on innocents. She is the best option for assuming the iron throne if you support 'good' people, although she is no saint. You are right that those characters you mentioned are good but they of course will never sit on the throne.
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Jamie accepts and knows he's not good, he does sort of follow his own 'code'.
Dany on the other hand is a stuck up bitch who thinks she's morally right and above everyone else.
Who has killed more people? Who has saved more people? Jamie comes out winner there EASY.
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On June 07 2013 19:12 Fulla wrote:
Jamie accepts and knows he's not good, he does sort of follow his own 'code'.
Dany on the other hand is a stuck up bitch who thinks she's morally right and above everyone else.
Who has killed more people? Who has saved more people? Jamie comes out winner there EASY.
Yeah but Jaime attempted to murder a completely innocent person and also killed that guy in the cage without even a second thought. He is clearly someone who has no problem using people's deaths as means to an end. No matter how many people he saved technically in King's Landing that doesn't make him better than Dany who has never so far killed an innocent person and hasn't shown nearly as much dispassionate capability to murder in cold blood.
By the way my colleague has pointed out to me the pointlessness and intractability of this argument but I consider myself a modern day jorah mormont. I must defend the khaleesi's virtue.
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On June 07 2013 18:53 Talin wrote:
Jamie has also killed (Aerys) to protect innocents.
Dany has killed to avenge Drogo and Rhaego - and while you can say that the witch wasn't really innocent, she was also standing up for her people that were brutalized and enslaved by Drogo's Khalasar (which Dany herself was very well aware of).
I cannot really give a good answer here because it would involve book knowledge but I don't agree with you and can tell you why in other thread or through PM.
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On June 07 2013 18:53 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:42 -Archangel- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:34 h41fgod wrote:On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back. Like any of them would count for good characters. But they both have good qualities. You know, like real life. Which of them you choose and what you overlook reveals something of your own morals. And while Jaime killed someone he swore to protect, he stopped the literal annihilation of Kings Landing. He also pushed a kid out a window, that he did not kill him was pure bad luck on his side. But the difference is that Dany kills to protect others (including innocents) while Jamie kills to protect himself and his family only. In a world where killing is way of life that is a huge difference. Who you kill doesn't make a difference. Why you kill doesn't make a difference. In the end, you're both killers. I don't blame Dany nor Jaime for killing those that they killed, but I definitely don't think that Dany is a saint.
It is in this world. My post was to answer the guy that said we need to look at their era and morals.
And their morals says it is OK to kill your enemies and since Dany is from Westeros where slavery is forbidden and not moral it is OK for her to kill all slave masters and free all slaves.
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On June 07 2013 19:02 Acertos wrote:
She broke her deal in a viscious manner and killed the masters in Astapor because the guy was being a huge dick to her and because she wanted to keep her drake. She cares about the slaves but yet can't see the consequencies of her acts.
What are you talking about? Their transaction was done. There was no part of the deal that said he is not allowed to use those same troops to conquer the city. She didn't break any deals. And she wanted to free the slaves, keeping a Dragon was just natural as spoils of war.
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On June 07 2013 18:21 sc_a.M wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 18:09 OutlaW- wrote:On June 07 2013 18:02 sc4k wrote:
Well obviously Tolkein that isn't a viable option. Dany has a purpose she isn't specifically there to be a peacekeeper. If you strike out the option of staying for the foreseeable future she CLEARLY makes the right choice. I don't have time for your bizarrely disproportionate wall of text.
The point remains and you even concede it, that Dany is the 'good' character out of the major players left alive. So stop quibbling!!!!! I can't believe you still think this. Dany is definitely not a "good" character. She's a murderer, a hypocrite, doesn't abhor to deals, a thief (stealing from the rich and the "bad" is still stealing) vengeful and incredibly short sighted. Jaime is a much more "good" character than she is Obviously, she can be your favorite character if you want her to be, but I feel like you're blind to her bad sides, your use of exclamation marks only supports that insecurity jaime is most definatly not more good than daenrys. he killed the person he sworn to protect by stabbing him in the back.
You are missing the point of jaime then.
He killed the king because the mad king was going to burn kings landing to the ground and kill the entire population.
Knightly vows can contradict itself. Protect the king but also protect the innocent. So you are going to let a king burn an entire city down ?
Jaime is at the core a good guy. He has just been judged due to killing the king but what he did was better than lettinv the mad king do what he wanted
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