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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2013 03:44 TSORG wrote:On May 24 2013 03:00 KwarK wrote:
Theon is a bad guy not through malice but because he is a massive bundle of daddy/abandonment/jealousy/resentment issues which lead to him getting way out of his depth and not having the sense to just run away when it gets too heavy. He hasn't done anything good, we've seen him being friendly etc with his foster brothers but even then he was a spoiled stuck up whiny kid. If he gets out of his current situation and learns to deal with his feels appropriately he could be a good guy but as it is he's just a fuckup, not bad to the bone but messed up so much that he might as well be. theon isnt a bad guy, he just got stuck in a bad situation. He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously.
I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy.
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On May 28 2013 12:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2013 03:44 TSORG wrote:On May 24 2013 03:00 KwarK wrote:
Theon is a bad guy not through malice but because he is a massive bundle of daddy/abandonment/jealousy/resentment issues which lead to him getting way out of his depth and not having the sense to just run away when it gets too heavy. He hasn't done anything good, we've seen him being friendly etc with his foster brothers but even then he was a spoiled stuck up whiny kid. If he gets out of his current situation and learns to deal with his feels appropriately he could be a good guy but as it is he's just a fuckup, not bad to the bone but messed up so much that he might as well be. theon isnt a bad guy, he just got stuck in a bad situation. He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously. I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy.
Peer pressure is one thing, because you can get new peers, but when the pressure to fit into expectations comes from family that you desperately want acceptance from... it's hard to keep things in perspective. Theon is a tragic character in that he was moving blindly towards that goal and ended up committing horrific things that he barely could process and would never have done on his own (remember that he defends Bran's life in S1).
I see him more as a 'guy who ended up doing bad things' than a bad guy outright, and the fact he feels intense regret for it supports that. But a guy's gotta pay for what he's done.
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theon is probably the biggest idiot on the show. And i mean that in his inability to step back and think. he's ALWAYS in the moment unable to comprehend the big picture.
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United States43877 Posts
People hate on Joffrey despite the shitty insane upbringing he had and yet defend Theon's actions as being because of his childhood which left him with all sorts of crazyballs issues. Yeah, Theon has a desperate need for acceptance and a family based on jealousy towards Robb and so forth but everyone has their reasons, he killed two children, he's evil.
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MOD EDIT: wtf -.-
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 28 2013 13:44 KwarK wrote:
People hate on Joffrey despite the shitty insane upbringing he had and yet defend Theon's actions as being because of his childhood which left him with all sorts of crazyballs issues. Yeah, Theon has a desperate need for acceptance and a family based on jealousy towards Robb and so forth but everyone has their reasons, he killed two children, he's evil.
Theon is evil indeed, but does that warrant the torture he's had to go through? I feel like that's the more important question when it comes to Theon's current predicament.
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On May 28 2013 12:32 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2013 03:44 TSORG wrote:On May 24 2013 03:00 KwarK wrote:
Theon is a bad guy not through malice but because he is a massive bundle of daddy/abandonment/jealousy/resentment issues which lead to him getting way out of his depth and not having the sense to just run away when it gets too heavy. He hasn't done anything good, we've seen him being friendly etc with his foster brothers but even then he was a spoiled stuck up whiny kid. If he gets out of his current situation and learns to deal with his feels appropriately he could be a good guy but as it is he's just a fuckup, not bad to the bone but messed up so much that he might as well be. theon isnt a bad guy, he just got stuck in a bad situation. He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously. I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. Peer pressure is one thing, because you can get new peers, but when the pressure to fit into expectations comes from family that you desperately want acceptance from... it's hard to keep things in perspective. Theon is a tragic character in that he was moving blindly towards that goal and ended up committing horrific things that he barely could process and would never have done on his own (remember that he defends Bran's life in S1). I see him more as a 'guy who ended up doing bad things' than a bad guy outright, and the fact he feels intense regret for it supports that. But a guy's gotta pay for what he's done.
Come on, we are not talking about Theon doing drugs because of peer pressure. He took a castle of only people that loved him, murdered people inside and then murdered two innocent kids. There is no excuse for this.
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On May 28 2013 15:10 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:32 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2013 03:44 TSORG wrote:
[quote]
theon isnt a bad guy, he just got stuck in a bad situation. He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously. I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. Peer pressure is one thing, because you can get new peers, but when the pressure to fit into expectations comes from family that you desperately want acceptance from... it's hard to keep things in perspective. Theon is a tragic character in that he was moving blindly towards that goal and ended up committing horrific things that he barely could process and would never have done on his own (remember that he defends Bran's life in S1). I see him more as a 'guy who ended up doing bad things' than a bad guy outright, and the fact he feels intense regret for it supports that. But a guy's gotta pay for what he's done. Come on, we are not talking about Theon doing drugs because of peer pressure. He took a castle of only people that loved him, murdered people inside and then murdered two innocent kids. There is no excuse for this.
I feel like he thought he had no other choice. I think he never wanted to do what he did, but felt if he didn't his men would abandon or overthrow him. I think the key thing here is his intentions not his actions and that he wanted to do everything the peaceful way but due to his stupidy or age or whatever he didn't know how to correctly handle the people around him. Personally though I don't believe in good/evil so I think it's a bit of a silly debate.
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On May 28 2013 13:44 KwarK wrote:
People hate on Joffrey despite the shitty insane upbringing he had and yet defend Theon's actions as being because of his childhood which left him with all sorts of crazyballs issues. Yeah, Theon has a desperate need for acceptance and a family based on jealousy towards Robb and so forth but everyone has their reasons, he killed two children, he's evil. Doing evil doesnt make you evil, it just makes you shitty.
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Stannis is the best character by far, I really hope he takes the iron throne. 
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On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote:
stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
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On May 28 2013 15:10 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:32 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2013 03:44 TSORG wrote:
[quote]
theon isnt a bad guy, he just got stuck in a bad situation. He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously. I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. Peer pressure is one thing, because you can get new peers, but when the pressure to fit into expectations comes from family that you desperately want acceptance from... it's hard to keep things in perspective. Theon is a tragic character in that he was moving blindly towards that goal and ended up committing horrific things that he barely could process and would never have done on his own (remember that he defends Bran's life in S1). I see him more as a 'guy who ended up doing bad things' than a bad guy outright, and the fact he feels intense regret for it supports that. But a guy's gotta pay for what he's done. Come on, we are not talking about Theon doing drugs because of peer pressure. He took a castle of only people that loved him, murdered people inside and then murdered two innocent kids. There is no excuse for this.
They're at war. Every character on the show is a murderer.
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On May 28 2013 13:44 KwarK wrote:
People hate on Joffrey despite the shitty insane upbringing he had and yet defend Theon's actions as being because of his childhood which left him with all sorts of crazyballs issues. Yeah, Theon has a desperate need for acceptance and a family based on jealousy towards Robb and so forth but everyone has their reasons, he killed two children, he's evil.
I think people forget that Theon is a hostage, kept from his family for almost his entire upbringing. While he does identify with the Starks, he still has a longing to prove himself to his family.... I can't imagine anyone not harboring resentment towards people who killed the ones he loved, destroyed his families legacy, and kept him from the family he belonged too. It is obvious he was troubled by his actions and maybe even regrets them.
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On May 28 2013 15:38 Renent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 13:44 KwarK wrote:
People hate on Joffrey despite the shitty insane upbringing he had and yet defend Theon's actions as being because of his childhood which left him with all sorts of crazyballs issues. Yeah, Theon has a desperate need for acceptance and a family based on jealousy towards Robb and so forth but everyone has their reasons, he killed two children, he's evil. I think people forget that Theon is a hostage, kept from his family for almost his entire upbringing. While he does identify with the Starks, he still has a longing to prove himself to his family.... I can't imagine anyone not harboring resentment towards people who killed the ones he loved, destroyed his families legacy, and kept him from the family he belonged too. It is obvious he was troubled by his actions and maybe even regrets them. Edit: Drunk post. I hope this makes moderate sense. double edit: Lost a ladder game writing this, forgot I queued lol!
he also didn't WANT to kill anyone, he's a child mentally and doesn't get that he has to kill if he acts like he does.
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On May 28 2013 15:23 ragingfungus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 15:10 -Archangel- wrote:On May 28 2013 12:32 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:27 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:23 Dfgj wrote:On May 28 2013 12:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 12:14 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 11:09 Zooper31 wrote:On May 28 2013 11:07 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
He killed two children. Granted they were 2 innocent children he pretended they were 2 important characters he was looking for and didn't actually want to kill. He even gave the farmer money for some sort of compensation as a sort of apology. lol? Is that supposed to make it any less bad or were you just elaborating on details? It's just not as cut and dry as he makes it sound. I think it makes it sound worse if anything. He killed two innocent children so he wouldn't look bad. Sure there's worse reasons you could have for killing two innocent children, but not many. Pretty much everything he did was out of desperation to assert himself rather than malice or cruelty. That makes him a little less than outright evil because there's something to sympathize with there. It doesn't excuse his actions, obviously. I'd throw self-absorbed vanity and pride on top of it as well with blatant disregard to the well-being of others. He's obviously not evil like Gregor or Joffrey, but that doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy. Peer pressure is one thing, because you can get new peers, but when the pressure to fit into expectations comes from family that you desperately want acceptance from... it's hard to keep things in perspective. Theon is a tragic character in that he was moving blindly towards that goal and ended up committing horrific things that he barely could process and would never have done on his own (remember that he defends Bran's life in S1). I see him more as a 'guy who ended up doing bad things' than a bad guy outright, and the fact he feels intense regret for it supports that. But a guy's gotta pay for what he's done. Come on, we are not talking about Theon doing drugs because of peer pressure. He took a castle of only people that loved him, murdered people inside and then murdered two innocent kids. There is no excuse for this. I feel like he thought he had no other choice. I think he never wanted to do what he did, but felt if he didn't his men would abandon or overthrow him. I think the key thing here is his intentions not his actions and that he wanted to do everything the peaceful way but due to his stupidy or age or whatever he didn't know how to correctly handle the people around him. Personally though I don't believe in good/evil so I think it's a bit of a silly debate.
He could have not gone after Winterfell to begin with? It's nowhere near the sea anyways and his orders were to raid the coast.
Saying he had no choice is a pathetic excuse for a cop out.
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On May 28 2013 16:53 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
He could have not gone after Winterfell to begin with? It's nowhere near the sea anyways and his orders were to raid the coast.
Saying he had no choice is a pathetic excuse for a cop out.
IN his mind he thinks he can take winterfell easily and since taking winterfell symbolizes him succeeding where his brothers failed, his father will approve of him like he did the other sons. He somehow thought he could do that and only kill soldiers. things got out of hand because his troops toyed with him.
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On May 28 2013 15:35 ragingfungus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote:
stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best. On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly?
He is the lawful king and heir to Robert Baratheon until someone else claims the throne from House Baratheon by conquest as Robert did from House Targaryen.
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On May 28 2013 16:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 16:53 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
He could have not gone after Winterfell to begin with? It's nowhere near the sea anyways and his orders were to raid the coast.
Saying he had no choice is a pathetic excuse for a cop out. IN his mind he thinks he can take winterfell easily and since taking winterfell symbolizes him succeeding where his brothers failed, his father will approve of him like he did the other sons. He somehow thought he could do that and only kill soldiers. things got out of hand because his troops toyed with him.
His brothers never tried to take Winterfell so I don't really see how it is succeeding where they failed.
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On May 28 2013 16:56 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 15:35 ragingfungus wrote:On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote:
stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best. On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something. His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either). How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon? Even if one requires a battle fought in the eyes of the Gods to legitimize a claim by conquest, the Battle of Blackwater surely does just that.
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On May 28 2013 16:57 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 16:55 PrinceXizor wrote:On May 28 2013 16:53 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
He could have not gone after Winterfell to begin with? It's nowhere near the sea anyways and his orders were to raid the coast.
Saying he had no choice is a pathetic excuse for a cop out. IN his mind he thinks he can take winterfell easily and since taking winterfell symbolizes him succeeding where his brothers failed, his father will approve of him like he did the other sons. He somehow thought he could do that and only kill soldiers. things got out of hand because his troops toyed with him. His brothers never tried to take Winterfell so I don't really see how it is succeeding where they failed.
they died fighting the starks. the starks ARE winterfell. to theon taking winterfell is defeating the starks.
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On May 28 2013 16:59 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 16:56 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2013 15:35 ragingfungus wrote:On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote:
stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best. On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something. His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either). How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert. His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
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EPT
