On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
It doesn't matter that Renly is dead, Stannis relegated Renly's claim to the throne illegitimate prior to his murder, when his own claim is predicated on the very standard Renly invoked, thus making Stannis a hypocrite.
He could have not gone after Winterfell to begin with? It's nowhere near the sea anyways and his orders were to raid the coast.
Saying he had no choice is a pathetic excuse for a cop out.
IN his mind he thinks he can take winterfell easily and since taking winterfell symbolizes him succeeding where his brothers failed, his father will approve of him like he did the other sons. He somehow thought he could do that and only kill soldiers. things got out of hand because his troops toyed with him.
His brothers never tried to take Winterfell so I don't really see how it is succeeding where they failed.
they died fighting the starks. the starks ARE winterfell. to theon taking winterfell is defeating the starks.
No they didn't.
The first son was slain by Lord Jason Mallister in the Iron Islander assault on Seagard. Jason Mallister was a Riverlander loyal to House Tully.
The second was killed in the Siege of Pyke, which had an assembled force of the forces of the Iron Throne.
The Greyjoy Rebellion wasn't just Greyjoy vs Baratheon/Stark. Robert Baratheon rallied all the forces of the realm to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
It doesn't matter that Renly is dead, Stannis relegated Renly's claim to the throne illegitimate prior to his murder, when his own claim is predicated on the very standard Renly invoked, thus making Stannis a hypocrite.
Stannis isn't invoking claim by conquest though. Robert claimed the throne by conquest from House Targaryen.
Stannis' claim as the King stems form being the legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon by all the laws of the seven kingdoms because he is the oldest living brother of Robert who had no trueborn sons.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
On May 28 2013 17:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: The Greyjoy Rebellion wasn't just Greyjoy vs Baratheon/Stark. Robert Baratheon rallied all the forces of the realm to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. .
aaaand literally none of that matters when his family attributes all of the anger toward the starks.
On May 28 2013 17:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: The Greyjoy Rebellion wasn't just Greyjoy vs Baratheon/Stark. Robert Baratheon rallied all the forces of the realm to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. .
aaaand literally none of that matters when his family attributes all of the anger toward the starks.
I don't see how any of this is relevant to somehow making Theon less responsible or accountable for his actions.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
His alliance with the Riverlands is the main reason he is stuck in this war and cannot just go home. Just sitting there isn't an option either since that would be terrible for the morale of the Northern troops who will want to go home before the winter. He at least needs to come to some sort of cease fire with the Lannisters to be able to leave the Riverlands.
On May 28 2013 17:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: The Greyjoy Rebellion wasn't just Greyjoy vs Baratheon/Stark. Robert Baratheon rallied all the forces of the realm to deal with the Greyjoy Rebellion. .
aaaand literally none of that matters when his family attributes all of the anger toward the starks.
I don't see how any of this is relevant to somehow making Theon less responsible or accountable for his actions.
I was explaining his motivations. He has the mind of a child. he doesn't think things through or understand what he's doing really. he gets put in no win situations and figured he's gone in too deep to back out so he keeps going forward. It's like when a guy has an affair and realizes that if he stops the other woman will make his life hell, damned if you do damned if you don't. He made bad decisions based on child-like motivations, and then was rapidly forced to mature over the course of his life being thrown into chaos. he really doesn't understand why everything he does makes him more and more enemies.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
I don't think "King of the North" is equivalent to "King of the Seven Kingdoms".
He wanted justice and vengeance against Joffrey for murdering his father.
Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with Cersei's claim or not, but she isn't exactly the most competent character in the show, let alone war commander. If someone like Stannis or Tywin said that, it may as well be scripture, but Cersei isn't really a source on military strategy.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon? Even if one requires a battle fought in the eyes of the Gods to legitimize a claim by conquest, the Battle of Blackwater surely does just that.
Actually, it goes a little deeper than that. Robert did take the crown by force, but it is not just a case of "who conquers the throne has a right to sit on it". As a matter of fact, the Baratheon family is decended from a Targaryen bastard son of Aegon the Conqueror, making them direct successors to the throne that was created by them. This is how the Baratheons justified their claim to the throne after Robert's Rebellion, since they pretty much killed or exiled all members of the Targaryen family main line. So Stannis is not only the rightful heir to King Robert, but also to the Targaryen family, something neither Joffrey nor Robb, Renly or Balon could claim.
After all, the reign over all seven kingdoms was only created 300 years ago by Aegon Targaryen, and never conquered from the family per se. Calling the other "kings" usurpers therefore makes perfect sense, from a kind of twisted, overly literal point of view.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
It doesn't matter that Renly is dead, Stannis relegated Renly's claim to the throne illegitimate prior to his murder, when his own claim is predicated on the very standard Renly invoked, thus making Stannis a hypocrite.
Stannis isn't invoking claim by conquest though. Robert claimed the throne by conquest from House Targaryen.
Stannis' claim as the King stems form being the legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon by all the laws of the seven kingdoms because he is the oldest living brother of Robert who had no trueborn sons.
It doesn't matter that Stannis is not invoking claim by conquest, as I've already explained previously. His claim via inheritance only floats if it also recognizes the legitimacy of claim by conquest, or else Robert would have no viable claim to the throne, and accordingly neither would Stannis.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon? Even if one requires a battle fought in the eyes of the Gods to legitimize a claim by conquest, the Battle of Blackwater surely does just that.
Actually, it goes a little deeper than that. Robert did take the crown by force, but it is not just a case of "who conquers the throne has a right to sit on it". As a matter of fact, the Baratheon family is decended from a Targaryen bastard son of Aegon the Conqueror, making them direct successors to the throne that was created by them. This is how the Baratheons justified their claim to the throne after Robert's Rebellion, since they pretty much killed or exiled all members of the Targaryen family main line. So Stannis is not only the rightful heir to King Robert, but also to the Targaryen family, something neither Joffrey nor Robb, Renly or Balon could claim.
After all, the reign over all seven kingdoms was only created 300 years ago by Aegon Targaryen, and never conquered from the family per se. Calling the other "kings" usurpers therefore makes perfect sense, from a kind of twisted, overly literal point of view.
This is fine, it still does not absolve Stannis from having a duplicitous view on his brother Renly's claim, for he is a Baratheon as well and it is not a simple question of who is the oldest. This conversation requires references to the book from this point forward, so best to agree to disagree or take it to the other thread.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
I don't think "King of the North" is equivalent to "King of the Seven Kingdoms".
He wanted justice and vengeance against Joffrey for murdering his father.
Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with Cersei's claim or not, but she isn't exactly the most competent character in the show, let alone war commander. If someone like Stannis or Tywin said that, it may as well be scripture, but Cersei isn't really a source on military strategy.
What Robb actually wants is even unclear to himself, I think. Judging from the negotiations that Catelyn was sent out to do, the desired outcome to the war was something like:
- Unite Stark/Tully forces under Robb with Baratheon/Tyrell forces under Renly or at least Stannis. - Defeat the Lannisters under Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and kill them all. - Place Renly as king of the five kingdoms south of the trident. - Rule as King of the North and the Riverlands.
I think dethroning Joffrey was the main goal of the Starks during the war so far. Maybe also defending the Riverlands against Tywin and Clegane. Whether Stannis or Renly ruled the South was not a major concern, even though everybody seemed to agree that Renly was the more likeable of both, and he had the support of the Reach. Robb would still gladly make peace with Stannis and coexist as two realms after the Lannisters are defeated.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
It doesn't matter that Renly is dead, Stannis relegated Renly's claim to the throne illegitimate prior to his murder, when his own claim is predicated on the very standard Renly invoked, thus making Stannis a hypocrite.
Stannis isn't invoking claim by conquest though. Robert claimed the throne by conquest from House Targaryen.
Stannis' claim as the King stems form being the legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon by all the laws of the seven kingdoms because he is the oldest living brother of Robert who had no trueborn sons.
It doesn't matter that Stannis is not invoking claim by conquest, as I've already explained previously. His claim via inheritance only floats if it also recognizes the legitimacy of claim by conquest, or else Robert would have no viable claim to the throne, and accordingly neither would Stannis.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon? Even if one requires a battle fought in the eyes of the Gods to legitimize a claim by conquest, the Battle of Blackwater surely does just that.
Actually, it goes a little deeper than that. Robert did take the crown by force, but it is not just a case of "who conquers the throne has a right to sit on it". As a matter of fact, the Baratheon family is decended from a Targaryen bastard son of Aegon the Conqueror, making them direct successors to the throne that was created by them. This is how the Baratheons justified their claim to the throne after Robert's Rebellion, since they pretty much killed or exiled all members of the Targaryen family main line. So Stannis is not only the rightful heir to King Robert, but also to the Targaryen family, something neither Joffrey nor Robb, Renly or Balon could claim.
After all, the reign over all seven kingdoms was only created 300 years ago by Aegon Targaryen, and never conquered from the family per se. Calling the other "kings" usurpers therefore makes perfect sense, from a kind of twisted, overly literal point of view.
This is fine, it still does not absolve Stannis from having a duplicitous view on his brother Renly's claim, for he is a Baratheon as well. This conversation requires references to the book from this point forward, so best to agree to disagree or take it to the other thread.
It doesn't require any book references though. Older brother inherits before the younger. It's as simple as that when it comes to Renly. Renly didn't claim the throne by conquest. He tried to and failed.
Robert DID claim the throne by conquest. It was undisputed and all houses swore fealty to Robert. House Baratheon's claim by conquest over House Targaryen was made legitimate. Renly's claim over Stannis by conquest was never legitimate because Stannis didn't yield.
I feel like you are mistaking "claim by conquest" as something like "I'm a mercenary with a couple mercenary friends my claim is just as powerful as Renly's". Your claim by conquest isn't actually legitimate until you actually win.
Stannis is lawful heir of the Iron Throne. The only other way to claim the throne is by conquest. No one has conquered the seven kingdoms, therefore, no one has a legitimate claim by conquest the way Robert Baratheon had a legitimate claim of conquest over House Targaryen. Hence, there is no hypocrisy from Stannis regarding his legitimacy over Renly.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
I don't think "King of the North" is equivalent to "King of the Seven Kingdoms".
He wanted justice and vengeance against Joffrey for murdering his father.
Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with Cersei's claim or not, but she isn't exactly the most competent character in the show, let alone war commander. If someone like Stannis or Tywin said that, it may as well be scripture, but Cersei isn't really a source on military strategy.
What Robb actually wants is even unclear to himself, I think. Judging from the negotiations that Catelyn was sent out to do, the desired outcome to the war was something like:
- Unite Stark/Tully forces under Robb with Baratheon/Tyrell forces under Renly or at least Stannis. - Defeat the Lannisters under Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and kill them all. - Place Renly as king of the five kingdoms south of the trident. - Rule as King of the North and the Riverlands.
I think dethroning Joffrey was the main goal of the Starks during the war so far. Maybe also defending the Riverlands against Tywin and Clegane. Whether Stannis or Renly ruled the South was not a major concern, even though everybody seemed to agree that Renly was the more likeable of both, and he had the support of the Reach. Robb would still gladly make peace with Stannis and coexist as two realms after the Lannisters are defeated.
You're just agreeing with me. Robb doesn't really want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms and rule from the Iron Throne. Therefore, a claim by conquest of the seven kingdoms makes no sense for him.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon? Even if one requires a battle fought in the eyes of the Gods to legitimize a claim by conquest, the Battle of Blackwater surely does just that.
Actually, it goes a little deeper than that. Robert did take the crown by force, but it is not just a case of "who conquers the throne has a right to sit on it". As a matter of fact, the Baratheon family is decended from a Targaryen bastard son of Aegon the Conqueror, making them direct successors to the throne that was created by them. This is how the Baratheons justified their claim to the throne after Robert's Rebellion, since they pretty much killed or exiled all members of the Targaryen family main line. So Stannis is not only the rightful heir to King Robert, but also to the Targaryen family, something neither Joffrey nor Robb, Renly or Balon could claim.
After all, the reign over all seven kingdoms was only created 300 years ago by Aegon Targaryen, and never conquered from the family per se. Calling the other "kings" usurpers therefore makes perfect sense, from a kind of twisted, overly literal point of view.
This is fine, it still does not absolve Stannis from having a duplicitous view on his brother Renly's claim, for he is a Baratheon as well and it is not a simple question of who is the oldest.
Actually, in feudal inheritance law, it is!
On May 28 2013 17:28 farvacola wrote:This conversation requires references to the book from this point forward, so best to agree to disagree or take it to the other thread.
On May 28 2013 10:40 EleanorRIgby wrote: stannis is the rightful king, if renly hadn't took up arms against him the true baratheons would still be at the throne.
I'm really hoping stannis eventually takes the throne, as he will NEVER bend the knee to anyone even if it means all his men die. Joffrey is like 1/10000 the man stannis is, the boy ran and hide when stannis hadn't even breached the walls yet, then on the other hand stannis saw half or more of his fleet burn alive infront of him and doesn't hesitate to go forward, he was the first one in the boats the first one of the shore and the first one up the ladders. He will never bend the knee.
I think it's funny that he calls himself the rightful king and claims everyone else is a usurper. He seems to conveniently forget how his brother acquired the throne in the first place. I enjoy his character, but I feel he can be a bit of a hypocrite at times when it comes to his ideals in that he sort of twists them to serve him best.
On another note I do think he will be on the throne at some point, but it won't last long. I feel like it will be some big climax where he will completely turn on his ideals and realize this and have himself executed or try to kill mel or something.
His brother acquired the throne by conquest (but it didn't hurt that he had a weak claim either).
How is Stannis a hypocrite exactly? He is the lawful king and heir to Robert.
His claim to rightful inheritance via relation to Robert de facto legitimizes Robert's claim by conquest, meaning alternate claims are similarly justified. If Robert can claim conquest, why can't Renly, Robb, or Balon?
Well for one, Renly is dead.
Secondly, Robb and Balon aren't fighting for the throne, they are fighting for secession.
Its unclear what Robb is fighting for. If he just wanted to be an independent kingdom he could have left as soon as his dad's head got chopped off. Cercei admits that the 6 Kingdoms couldnt conquer the Northmen in the North. Especially with Winter Coming. Even sitting in the Riverlands and killing the one army at a time the Kingdoms could send at him -- one army at a time because the Riverlands are ravaged so a multiple armies would just starve long before they got to Robb -- he would effectively be independent with 2 kingdoms.
I don't think "King of the North" is equivalent to "King of the Seven Kingdoms".
He wanted justice and vengeance against Joffrey for murdering his father.
Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with Cersei's claim or not, but she isn't exactly the most competent character in the show, let alone war commander. If someone like Stannis or Tywin said that, it may as well be scripture, but Cersei isn't really a source on military strategy.
What Robb actually wants is even unclear to himself, I think. Judging from the negotiations that Catelyn was sent out to do, the desired outcome to the war was something like:
- Unite Stark/Tully forces under Robb with Baratheon/Tyrell forces under Renly or at least Stannis. - Defeat the Lannisters under Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and kill them all. - Place Renly as king of the five kingdoms south of the trident. - Rule as King of the North and the Riverlands.
I think dethroning Joffrey was the main goal of the Starks during the war so far. Maybe also defending the Riverlands against Tywin and Clegane. Whether Stannis or Renly ruled the South was not a major concern, even though everybody seemed to agree that Renly was the more likeable of both, and he had the support of the Reach. Robb would still gladly make peace with Stannis and coexist as two realms after the Lannisters are defeated.
You're just agreeing with me. Robb doesn't really want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms and rule from the Iron Throne. Therefore, a claim by conquest of the seven kingdoms makes no sense for him.
Yes, but he _does_ deny the Baratheon (be it of King's Landing, Dragonstone or Storm's End) family their somewhat rightful claim to rule over all seven kingdoms.
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