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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
ON TOPIC
i've had some chance to digest the final episode as well as read the comments online, and enjoy the hilarious memes.
FINAL GRADE - C+
my sentiment is the same. given how shitty the season was, this was the best i could'e hoped for. by lowering my expectations drastically i was still able to appreciate the tremendous work and mastery that the team put forth in this goodbye episode. peter dinklage is an incredible actor, and his grief at discovering his bro and sis dead was heartfelt. dany's heartbreak as she got stabbed was also portrayed powerfully, and i still feel upset that dany is dead - even though her death was predictable! drogon burning down the throne was good imagery, as was the shot of drogon spreading his wings behind dany - it looked like she was evil kerrigan. beautiful. the production team really has gone above and beyond, all starbucks and water bottles aside. they created a visual masterpiece. costumes, set, cgi, everything just gorgeous. actors too gave it their all. like raul julia as m bison in street fighter: THE MOVIE.
does it make any sense that a bunch of randoms would just accept a broken cripple as emperor? fuck no. does it make any sense they'd listen to tyrion a prisoner. does it make any sense grey worm and the dothraki wouldn't have killed jon snow on the spot, and then disintegrated into a wild unruly mob without a leader, devolving into a terrifying horde raping and pillaging everywhere?of course not. did it get fucking annoying to hear jon snow keep saying: "SHE IS MY QUEEN!!!!" and not display any capacity for independent thought? does it make any sense that jon snow got resurrected, had the lineage he had, only for it to not matter at all? no of course not!
but he finally pet ghost! the actors shouldn't feel bad, and they should be proud of the work they've done. they'e created a cultural cornerstone on the same level of LOTR. its GRRM fault for being a slow writer, and D&D fault for trying to cram 2-3 seasons worth of material into 6 episodes. fuck em
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On May 22 2019 03:26 fishjie wrote:
ON TOPIC
i've had some chance to digest the final episode as well as read the comments online, and enjoy the hilarious memes.
FINAL GRADE - C+
my sentiment is the same. given how shitty the season was, this was the best i could'e hoped for. by lowering my expectations drastically i was still able to appreciate the tremendous work and mastery that the team put forth in this goodbye episode. peter dinklage is an incredible actor, and his grief at discovering his bro and sis dead was heartfelt. dany's heartbreak as she got stabbed was also portrayed powerfully, and i still feel upset that dany is dead - even though her death was predictable! drogon burning down the throne was good imagery, as was the shot of drogon spreading his wings behind dany - it looked like she was evil kerrigan. beautiful. the production team really has gone above and beyond, all starbucks and water bottles aside. they created a visual masterpiece. costumes, set, cgi, everything just gorgeous. actors too gave it their all. like raul julia as m bison in street fighter: THE MOVIE.
does it make any sense that a bunch of randoms would just accept a broken cripple as emperor? fuck no. does it make any sense they'd listen to tyrion a prisoner. does it make any sense grey worm and the dothraki wouldn't have killed jon snow on the spot, and then disintegrated into a wild unruly mob without a leader, devolving into a terrifying horde raping and pillaging everywhere?of course not. did it get fucking annoying to hear jon snow keep saying: "SHE IS MY QUEEN!!!!" and not display any capacity for independent thought? does it make any sense that jon snow got resurrected, had the lineage he had, only for it to not matter at all? no of course not!
but he finally pet ghost! the actors shouldn't feel bad, and they should be proud of the work they've done. they'e created a cultural cornerstone on the same level of LOTR. its GRRM fault for being a slow writer, and D&D fault for trying to cram 2-3 seasons worth of material into 6 episodes. fuck em
Your grade and your criticism don't really coincide, lol. With a criticism like that, it should be a D. Which is about what I'd give the episode. A fail. Not the worst possible fail, but defniitely not a pass.
Just because they'd set themselves up to fail by writing the whole season badly doesn't mean they get a pass because they couldn't possibly do better. Firstly, they obviously could do better as you pointed out some of the glaring flaws that really didn't need to be introduced in this episode. And second, if they set themselves up to fail, and then fail... well, they still failed, didn't they?
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Zurich15355 Posts
On May 22 2019 03:02 Logo wrote:
Not to mention Cersei is increasingly drunk and increasing fat in a way that she's not able to understand let alone reconcile.
And starts mistreating and hurting her female lover. She is turning into Robert and we get it all from her PoV of not realizing at all what's happening.
It's an amazing series of chapters.
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On May 22 2019 03:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 03:26 fishjie wrote:
ON TOPIC
i've had some chance to digest the final episode as well as read the comments online, and enjoy the hilarious memes.
FINAL GRADE - C+
my sentiment is the same. given how shitty the season was, this was the best i could'e hoped for. by lowering my expectations drastically i was still able to appreciate the tremendous work and mastery that the team put forth in this goodbye episode. peter dinklage is an incredible actor, and his grief at discovering his bro and sis dead was heartfelt. dany's heartbreak as she got stabbed was also portrayed powerfully, and i still feel upset that dany is dead - even though her death was predictable! drogon burning down the throne was good imagery, as was the shot of drogon spreading his wings behind dany - it looked like she was evil kerrigan. beautiful. the production team really has gone above and beyond, all starbucks and water bottles aside. they created a visual masterpiece. costumes, set, cgi, everything just gorgeous. actors too gave it their all. like raul julia as m bison in street fighter: THE MOVIE.
does it make any sense that a bunch of randoms would just accept a broken cripple as emperor? fuck no. does it make any sense they'd listen to tyrion a prisoner. does it make any sense grey worm and the dothraki wouldn't have killed jon snow on the spot, and then disintegrated into a wild unruly mob without a leader, devolving into a terrifying horde raping and pillaging everywhere?of course not. did it get fucking annoying to hear jon snow keep saying: "SHE IS MY QUEEN!!!!" and not display any capacity for independent thought? does it make any sense that jon snow got resurrected, had the lineage he had, only for it to not matter at all? no of course not!
but he finally pet ghost! the actors shouldn't feel bad, and they should be proud of the work they've done. they'e created a cultural cornerstone on the same level of LOTR. its GRRM fault for being a slow writer, and D&D fault for trying to cram 2-3 seasons worth of material into 6 episodes. fuck em Your grade and your criticism don't really coincide, lol. With a criticism like that, it should be a D. Which is about what I'd give the episode. A fail. Not the worst possible fail, but defniitely not a pass. Just because they'd set themselves up to fail by writing the whole season badly doesn't mean they get a pass because they couldn't possibly do better. Firstly, they obviously could do better as you pointed out some of the glaring flaws that really didn't need to be introduced in this episode. And second, if they set themselves up to fail, and then fail... well, they still failed, didn't they?
there's only so much they can do in just one episode. they crammed two seasons worth into one episode. also if it makes more sense, if i take the individual grade components:
actors: A+++++
production/cgi/set/etc: A+++++
writing: F-----
if i average it out, and give an extra + because i'm a huge peter dinklage fan, then yeah C+ lol
i forgot to mention some things that made it more enjoyable. the fan service! bronn has always been my favorite, so to hear him go on about brothels was fantastic. i forget the exact dialogue but it was like:
bronn: "brothels!"
sam: "i think we can agree ships are more important than brothels"
bronn: "sounds like you haven't been to the right ones!"
LOL oh good old bronn. does it make any sense he'd get highgarden? FUCK NO, but that blatant fan service scene gave me a good chuckle
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Northern Ireland25998 Posts
On May 22 2019 03:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 00:07 Dazed. wrote:
To be fair it was always more than self evident danny was a bad person; her very fucking initial goal is to conquer a foreign land because she thinks her blood gives her that right. She starts out as an advocate of: right of conquest, nobility, absolute monarchy, feudal society. She gets worse from there consistently every season. There was never any serious indication that danny was even half way decent let alone good. I actually always hated Danny. She was a merciless, cold hearted bitch with a messiah complex. I think her last line summarizes her perfectly: "because they don't get to chose". Ultimately, all she truly believed in was strength. Also, worse than anything else, she had no humour. At all. And that's never a good sign.
She’s always been one of my least favourite characters in the entire show, not because of moral stance or actor performance but she just has never seemed particularly human to me.
Her lack of humour definitely contributes to that for me.
She feels as divorced from how people actually behave as a Disney princess from the olden days, she’s more flawed but those flaws are a ruthlessness combined with that faith in destiny that that aren’t especially relatable.
Melisandre does actual magic too and has more doubt in herself and her place in the world.
Stannis wasn’t exactly Mr humour, but we’ve met people like that, I know I have. Plus we got some moments with Shirlene where him struggling to express what he felt, he still felt a real person.
I can’t quite 100% put my finger on exactly what it is, Dany has never quite felt all that real to me, and within this show that’s extremely atypical.
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@wombat: I think the problem is danny was written to be like 14, then they changed her to 20. the other characters who were aged up still had a lot of grrms stuff and other main characters to base their characterization around, plus grrm was writing in the early seasons. Danny is just an isolated character playing off a bunch of one off villains and a horny jorah, and even that relationship is skewed massively because danny is no longer an early teen but early womanhood.
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Northern Ireland25998 Posts
On May 22 2019 03:43 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 03:32 Acrofales wrote:On May 22 2019 03:26 fishjie wrote:
ON TOPIC
i've had some chance to digest the final episode as well as read the comments online, and enjoy the hilarious memes.
FINAL GRADE - C+
my sentiment is the same. given how shitty the season was, this was the best i could'e hoped for. by lowering my expectations drastically i was still able to appreciate the tremendous work and mastery that the team put forth in this goodbye episode. peter dinklage is an incredible actor, and his grief at discovering his bro and sis dead was heartfelt. dany's heartbreak as she got stabbed was also portrayed powerfully, and i still feel upset that dany is dead - even though her death was predictable! drogon burning down the throne was good imagery, as was the shot of drogon spreading his wings behind dany - it looked like she was evil kerrigan. beautiful. the production team really has gone above and beyond, all starbucks and water bottles aside. they created a visual masterpiece. costumes, set, cgi, everything just gorgeous. actors too gave it their all. like raul julia as m bison in street fighter: THE MOVIE.
does it make any sense that a bunch of randoms would just accept a broken cripple as emperor? fuck no. does it make any sense they'd listen to tyrion a prisoner. does it make any sense grey worm and the dothraki wouldn't have killed jon snow on the spot, and then disintegrated into a wild unruly mob without a leader, devolving into a terrifying horde raping and pillaging everywhere?of course not. did it get fucking annoying to hear jon snow keep saying: "SHE IS MY QUEEN!!!!" and not display any capacity for independent thought? does it make any sense that jon snow got resurrected, had the lineage he had, only for it to not matter at all? no of course not!
but he finally pet ghost! the actors shouldn't feel bad, and they should be proud of the work they've done. they'e created a cultural cornerstone on the same level of LOTR. its GRRM fault for being a slow writer, and D&D fault for trying to cram 2-3 seasons worth of material into 6 episodes. fuck em Your grade and your criticism don't really coincide, lol. With a criticism like that, it should be a D. Which is about what I'd give the episode. A fail. Not the worst possible fail, but defniitely not a pass. Just because they'd set themselves up to fail by writing the whole season badly doesn't mean they get a pass because they couldn't possibly do better. Firstly, they obviously could do better as you pointed out some of the glaring flaws that really didn't need to be introduced in this episode. And second, if they set themselves up to fail, and then fail... well, they still failed, didn't they? there's only so much they can do in just one episode. they crammed two seasons worth into one episode. also if it makes more sense, if i take the individual grade components: actors: A+++++ production/cgi/set/etc: A+++++ writing: F----- if i average it out, and give an extra + because i'm a huge peter dinklage fan, then yeah C+ lol i forgot to mention some things that made it more enjoyable. the fan service! bronn has always been my favorite, so to hear him go on about brothels was fantastic. i forget the exact dialogue but it was like: bronn: "brothels!" sam: "i think we can agree ships are more important than brothels" bronn: "sounds like you haven't been to the right ones!" LOL oh good old bronn. does it make any sense he'd get highgarden? FUCK NO, but that blatant fan service scene gave me a good chuckle
As a huge Bronn fan, it was kinda dumb but, a dumb I could tolerate, especially after my disappointment thus far.
I liked Jon’s fate thematically a lot, not really sure why Greyworm didn’t just kill him of course, but whatever. The guy gets to live with the Wildlings who he won over with his character, and his unearned legitimate claim to the throne was shut off to him. Plus he still had to sacrifice something, I imagine he won’t get to see his Stark brethren again.
A bit shlocky but Brienne re-writing Jaime’s bio was a touch I definitely enjoyed, for both characters.
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yeah its a good way to put it, it was a dumb bronn scene, but dumb in a tolerable way lol.
also brienne adding to jaime's bio was great! a few good bits in a sea of shit.
ON BOOK DISCUSSION:
btw guys my friends pointed me out to this reddit post. i take it back, young griff was not stupid in dance with dragons! i mean book 4 still sucks and book 5 slightly sucks less, and both should've been combined into one. but now young griff makes way more sense, and would've solved all the problems in the last two seasons of the show:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bozxfa/spoilers_main_99_of_the_shows_problems_are_due_to/
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I didn't like book 4 much on the first read. Several of the things that happened in book 3 could have been shifted to book 4 to better pace some of the more exciting plot points, while introducing some of the new characters in book 3 instead.
But on re-read of book 4, it's certainly better than the original scripts from the show. Littlefinger in the books is much more like Keyser Söze in The Usual Suspects, or Ben from Lost. In the books he feels much more like a second tier schemer who just sucks up to who ever is in charge for his own gain for the first two books until the moment he "rescues" Sansa after Joffrey's death, and you realize how much he has been guiding things. Likewise his story line in the Vale is much more calculated than the show. He is confronted by the lords of the Vale, who are unhappy with him becoming their de facto ruler after the death of Lady Lysa Arryn. One of the lords, whom Littlefinger bribed ahead of time, breaks custom by threatening him with steel during the meeting. Littlefinger uses the insult to turn the tables on the lords, who eventually allow him to remain Lord Protector of little Lord Robert Arryn for the next year. Afterwards, Littlefinger discusses the deception with Sansa (who is posing as his bastard daughter, Alayne Stone) and is impressed at how quickly she picks up on the subtleties of his scheme. He reveals to her that if something should happen to little Robert, the Eyrie and the name Arryn will pass to Harrold Hardyng, a distant nephew of the house, and if Harry and Sansa were to wed, that would give her an army with which to reclaim Winterfell. In the show Littlefinger has no plan after killing Lysa and only lives because Sansa lies for him. Show Littlefinger is a buffoon. After the show ran out of book material, all the "smart" characters stopped doing anything smart, and were reduced to people telling us they were smart instead of showing it.
Book 4 does introduce a lot of new characters we have no attachment to, and lots of micro level stories showing the effect of the war on different parts of the world, like Brienne's quest to find Sansa. But the stories all have logical consistency that the show often lacks.
The other problem was that Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons were originally one super long book, but to get things out faster it was split. This meant it was a LONG time waiting to hear what happened to the characters that didn't have chapters in book 4. That made chapters from new characters I had no attachment to feel even worse. And of course book 3 was like shocking event after shocking event to all the main characters, I don't know that it's possible to match that again. I think book 4 is only crap compared to the brilliance of book 3 though. I liked book 5, but again not up to book 3's level.
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On May 22 2019 03:59 fishjie wrote:yeah its a good way to put it, it was a dumb bronn scene, but dumb in a tolerable way lol. also brienne adding to jaime's bio was great! a few good bits in a sea of shit. ON BOOK DISCUSSION: btw guys my friends pointed me out to this reddit post. i take it back, young griff was not stupid in dance with dragons! i mean book 4 still sucks and book 5 slightly sucks less, and both should've been combined into one. but now young griff makes way more sense, and would've solved all the problems in the last two seasons of the show: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bozxfa/spoilers_main_99_of_the_shows_problems_are_due_to/
I'm starting to drift to the belief that the books will have a very different ending, fwiw. It's not just that some characters are missing, all of the magic that wasn't in the show is going to lead to very different situations. Lady Stoneheart won't just take the role of Beric Dondarrion like this. The prophecies are also ignored by the show and the book won't do that. All of the sorcerers also have to be there fore a reason, Euron, Moqorro (although that could be just to eliminate some dragons without making them appear ridiculously weak like the show does)
I also think a lot more people are going to die, and there is a fuckton of foreshadowing to back that up. Tyrion is getting greyscale (well he might survive that I guess), Arya dies in the north fighting (for?) the Others...
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I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale?
I really hope we have more losses during the Long Night. I really liked that episode of the show (even with dumb NK snipe), but the show just didn't sell the impact of the losses that well since the armies just grew to meet the challenges in the next episodes anyways.
Like idk, the Long Night did all this building to impart just how many losses were being taken and how much these losses were due to the politics getting in the way of a good response, but it fell short of really driving it home. I still think the choreography (and soundtrack) of Jorah defending Dany is my favorite part of the entire season.
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On May 22 2019 05:56 Logo wrote:
I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale?
He's described as a gargoyle like 9 times throughout the books
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On May 22 2019 06:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 05:56 Logo wrote:
I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale? He's described as a gargoyle like 9 times throughout the books
Yeah on account of his severed nose, I don't know what that has to do with greyscale though? There's no sign yet he has it.
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On May 22 2019 06:10 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 06:08 Nebuchad wrote:On May 22 2019 05:56 Logo wrote:
I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale? He's described as a gargoyle like 9 times throughout the books Yeah on account of his severed nose, I don't know what that has to do with greyscale though? There's no sign yet he has it.
No not only on account of his severed nose. This is from his introduction talking to Jon at Winterfell.
"Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the Great Hall, looking for all the world like a gargoyle."
Look, obviously as long as we don't have the books I can't assert that he'll definitely get greyscale, I could be wrong. It's just that we know how GRRM writes by now. He loves to do this, he does this over and over and over again.
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On May 22 2019 05:56 Logo wrote:
I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale?
I really hope we have more losses during the Long Night. I really liked that episode of the show (even with dumb NK snipe), but the show just didn't sell the impact of the losses that well since the armies just grew to meet the challenges in the next episodes anyways.
Like idk, the Long Night did all this building to impart just how many losses were being taken and how much these losses were due to the politics getting in the way of a good response, but it fell short of really driving it home. I still think the choreography (and soundtrack) of Jorah defending Dany is my favorite part of the entire season.
At first I thought there was no need to keep so many characters alive, but even someone as irrelavant as Gendry had to survive so Arya could reject him later to show the viewers that she's uhh not the kind who wants to settle down. I guess Davos, Sam and Tormund could die, but the writers probably thought the ending would be worse without them even though they were no longer "important".
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I desperately hoped the leaks I read were wrong. They weren't.
We set out with a tale where we learned the expected way of the heroes' journey is foolish to adhere to, but ended with a fairy tale. I don't get it.
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On May 22 2019 06:16 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 05:56 Logo wrote:
I thought Tyrion seemed fine and it was Connington that got the Greyscale?
I really hope we have more losses during the Long Night. I really liked that episode of the show (even with dumb NK snipe), but the show just didn't sell the impact of the losses that well since the armies just grew to meet the challenges in the next episodes anyways.
Like idk, the Long Night did all this building to impart just how many losses were being taken and how much these losses were due to the politics getting in the way of a good response, but it fell short of really driving it home. I still think the choreography (and soundtrack) of Jorah defending Dany is my favorite part of the entire season. At first I thought there was no need to keep so many characters alive, but even someone as irrelavant as Gendry had to survive so Arya could reject him later to show the viewers that she's uhh not the kind who wants to settle down. I guess Davos, Sam and Tormund could die, but the writers probably thought the ending would be worse without them even though they were no longer "important".
Yeah, it's a hard line to have to deal with I suppose. I don't want like Sam and Davos just dying randomly without some narrative attached to it either given how long we've been with them. I think not having a lot of major characters die would work if they didn't just replenish the troops themselves next episode so we continued to feel the losses going forward. It's not like they needed more than a couple dozen unsullied, northmen, and vale soldiers to take kings landing. Losing Rhaegal to Viserion would also have probably been a lot more fitting of a loss but idk.
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On May 22 2019 05:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 03:59 fishjie wrote:yeah its a good way to put it, it was a dumb bronn scene, but dumb in a tolerable way lol. also brienne adding to jaime's bio was great! a few good bits in a sea of shit. ON BOOK DISCUSSION: btw guys my friends pointed me out to this reddit post. i take it back, young griff was not stupid in dance with dragons! i mean book 4 still sucks and book 5 slightly sucks less, and both should've been combined into one. but now young griff makes way more sense, and would've solved all the problems in the last two seasons of the show: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bozxfa/spoilers_main_99_of_the_shows_problems_are_due_to/ I'm starting to drift to the belief that the books will have a very different ending, fwiw. It's not just that some characters are missing, all of the magic that wasn't in the show is going to lead to very different situations. Lady Stoneheart won't just take the role of Beric Dondarrion like this. The prophecies are also ignored by the show and the book won't do that. All of the sorcerers also have to be there fore a reason, Euron, Moqorro (although that could be just to eliminate some dragons without making them appear ridiculously weak like the show does) I also think a lot more people are going to die, and there is a fuckton of foreshadowing to back that up. Tyrion is getting greyscale (well he might survive that I guess), Arya dies in the north fighting (for?) the Others...
i think for sure dany will turn mad. jaime will hopefully kill cersei, arya will hopefully kill dany???, and jon snow will hopefully be the prince that was promised. littlefinger and varys wont be morons who die from ineptitude, and tyrion wont be an idiot.
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On May 22 2019 00:12 karazax wrote:
By that standard, everyone who wanted to be king was a bad person. Conversely Dany's main driving force beyond just conquest was freeing the slaves and protecting the weak, so there was plenty to say she was decent, if not good. Ideally GRRM wants most of his characters to be grey though. Capable of doing good and bad things in different situations.
Even if you want to ignore all the massive red flags that were displayed throughout the entire series (too numerous to list them all), she showed her true colors when Jon revealed his lineage to her and she became a blatant hypocrite.
She spent 7 seasons saying how that her claim to the iron throne rested on her bloodline and her vision. Along comes Jon, who has a stronger claim by virtue of birthright and is also believes in justice/protecting the weak/etc, turning her claim on its head, and yet she immediately tries to bury any notion of Jon becoming the king. It was undeniable then.
I never understood why Dany was such a well liked character. She was cold, authoritarian, messianic, impulsive, egotistical, prone to tunnel vision, and power hungry.
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By GoT standards Jaime and Cersei shouldn’t have died under that rubble if both their skulls weren’t turned to mush.
So yes I think they’re still alive and will be in a side story. Get to it HBO
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EPT
