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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 21 2019 21:57 Yosheekee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:22 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:50 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 20:31 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote:
The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners. Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end. I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore. Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo. I'm not discussing them actually, I just agree that this is another sign showing how much they didn't care to give us something great. Let's admit that 2 years is not enough. HBO and Martin both wanted more time, more seasons, more episodes. They said no. They delivered us with shitty ending AND shitty production. How can you say it's not their fault ? THEY decided their own budget/time constraints. They blew it, badly.
Im disappointed in the show like most people and I do agree that what we got wasn't great in terms of story, but if there's one thing that shined was the production, so I don't know how you can say it was shitty. I understand the anger people have with the show, heck Im angry too, but lets keep it real.
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On May 21 2019 22:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:
actually if HBO really wanted more seasons why didnt they just find different people to do the series? lol Because there was not enough reason to fire D&D when those negotiations were happening? Sure there was a bit of drop in quality after they ran out of book material but I don't think it was nearly bad enough to fire them for prior to season 7.
Can they even do that? I’m not sure how all the rights and contractual stuff works out, presumably it’s not as simple as just getting rid of them, but I don’t actually know.
If HBO got Martin’s OK and installed showrunners themselves, yeah they probably could, wasn’t it vaguely the other way round with DnD selling it to Martin and then getting HBO on board?
Presumably in that case they maybe have more contractual protection, again I’m not sure.
There’s the added part of them knowing Martin’s vague plot sketches, I’m not sure who else knows all that stuff, they certainly kept it pretty close to their chests, nothing was leaking prior to actual production.
I’m not sure how the interpersonal stuff works, maybe Martin likes the guys I don’t know. If HBO fired them and their plot knowledge are they guaranteed that Martin will just give that to the next guys?
A lot of speculation here of course, some people more in the know on production stuff and all will probably make me look like an idiot lol.
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On May 21 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:
actually if HBO really wanted more seasons why didnt they just find different people to do the series? lol
I dont know the details, but they couldn't due their contract with D&D. For the other series that they have planned HBO made a direct contract with GRRM, so they wont have that problem moving forward. At least this is what I've been reading on freefolk/asoiaf and I dont know if its the actual truth, but it does make sense.
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Finland916 Posts
On May 21 2019 21:57 Yosheekee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:22 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:50 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 20:31 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote:
The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners. Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end. I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore. Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo. I'm not discussing them actually, I just agree that this is another sign showing how much they didn't care to give us something great. Let's admit that 2 years is not enough. HBO and Martin both wanted more time, more seasons, more episodes. They said no. They delivered us with shitty ending AND shitty production. How can you say it's not their fault ? THEY decided their own budget/time constraints. They blew it, badly.
Virtually all films and TV series have similar mistakes, and it's in no way another sign showing how much they didn't care. You're just reading too much into it, simple as that.
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On May 21 2019 22:21 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:57 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 21:22 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:50 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 20:31 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote:
The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners. Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end. I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore. Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo. I'm not discussing them actually, I just agree that this is another sign showing how much they didn't care to give us something great. Let's admit that 2 years is not enough. HBO and Martin both wanted more time, more seasons, more episodes. They said no. They delivered us with shitty ending AND shitty production. How can you say it's not their fault ? THEY decided their own budget/time constraints. They blew it, badly. Im disappointed in the show like most people and I do agree that what we got wasn't great in terms of story, but if there's one thing that shined was the production, so I don't know how you can say it was shitty. I understand the anger people have with the show, heck Im angry too, but lets keep it real.
My general rule of thumb is that if I don’t notice it while watching it doesn’t really count at all.
Plenty of great films have those errors, from wristwatches in Spartacus and all sorts of things over the years. Someone holding something in different hands from shot to shot etc.
I’m surprised there aren’t more to be honest, especially given the cottage YouTube industry of freeze framing everything and actively looking for errors to pore over and upload immediately to the internet is something that’s only matured relatively recently.
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On May 21 2019 22:27 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 21:57 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 21:22 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:50 Yosheekee wrote:On May 21 2019 20:31 FreakyDroid wrote:On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote:
The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners. Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end. I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore. Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo. I'm not discussing them actually, I just agree that this is another sign showing how much they didn't care to give us something great. Let's admit that 2 years is not enough. HBO and Martin both wanted more time, more seasons, more episodes. They said no. They delivered us with shitty ending AND shitty production. How can you say it's not their fault ? THEY decided their own budget/time constraints. They blew it, badly. Virtually all films and TV series have similar mistakes, and it's in no way another sign showing how much they didn't care. You're just reading too much into it, simple as that.
Except GOT actually didn't have these kind of mistakes before. It was a great show for a lot of other reasons, but it was also clear from this stuff. And then, you have the final season that is rushed, badle written and OH, surprise, mistakes like starbuck cup and water bottle. I think it's kinda related.
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because the song is awesome :D
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On May 21 2019 20:05 zatic wrote:
Edit: Regarding laziness and the writers not caring anymore
And then there are all these small errors that simply point to laziness, like forgetting Sam is the older brother or making Gendry a Rivers.
Even if D&D don't care for details like this anymore, anyone with qualifications "has read the books", or even "has seen season 1-6" should have caught these instantly while proofreading the script. Which apparently didn't happen. When did they forget sam was the older brother?
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On May 21 2019 23:29 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 20:05 zatic wrote:
Edit: Regarding laziness and the writers not caring anymore
And then there are all these small errors that simply point to laziness, like forgetting Sam is the older brother or making Gendry a Rivers.
Even if D&D don't care for details like this anymore, anyone with qualifications "has read the books", or even "has seen season 1-6" should have caught these instantly while proofreading the script. Which apparently didn't happen. When did they forget sam was the older brother?
In one of the post show interviews. It was pretty minor to be honest. Though they did also forget that Yara negotiated for an independent Iron Islands.
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I think D&D believe they did a good job. I just don't think they care about any of the details, they just want the high light plot points as quickly as possible and don't care if the path to hitting those plot points makes any sense. Conversely GRRM has said I have long contended: story is more than plot, that it's the journey that matters, not how fast you arrive at your destination.
There is also a good chance they were burned out on Game of Thrones and ready to move onto other projects, considering HBO basically gave them a blank check to make as many episodes as they wanted and more seasons.
Martin said he understood why they weren't doing more seasons, but that if they fully developed the plot lines the way he plans to in the books, they could have had content for at least 5 more seasons.
If they crammed 5 seasons worth of plot lines into 6 episodes, it's not surprising it feels rushed and incomplete.
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Also, 3ER has been sitting on the throne since S1 ...
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United States41958 Posts
Is there a list of all the book things that got left out. Glass candles, real Night King maybe being Bran the Builder who fell in love with a lady WW, Lady Stoneheart, wolf dreams, etc. etc.?
It might help show watchers to understand just how overgrown GRRM’s garden is and why he’s just given up on pruning it.
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If they hadnt bothered with filler episodes season after season-- especially TWO in the final six-- and filler bullshit storylines in general, like a eunuch trying to bone missandei...they could of easily filled in enough plot details while still maintaining their schedule. The useless fluff d@d put in that went no where at least amounts to a total of 4-6 hours, I would think.
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Yeah but when you take a real look at season 7 and 8 you see just how empty it all is. Even season 6 is pretty lame in the north with everyone sitting around board until they decide to kill Littlefinger because they realize he doesn't have anything to do anymore.
Season seven has maybe an episode of content until the season gets thrown into the morass of the ice lake battle. A nonsensical wild goose chase that consumed everything around it in order to have the night king have a dragon in time for the battle of winterfell.
The battle of winterfell was garbage from so many angles. Constant teasing that someone will die only for no one really to die. armor being turned into paper. The worst siege defense in history. The story thats been running from the first second of the show ends without so much of a whisper of sense before being wholesale thrown away because it really didn't matter to anyone.
Dany could have taken kings landing the first episode she came to westeros Full stop. She took the city in season 8 and it surrendered without her doing much more then superficial roasting of the walls.
Think of all the girls with the name Danny or Khallesi. They're all basicaly named adolf now.
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The most comprehensive way to get a scope of the books without reading them is to read all the chapter summaries from Tower of the Hand. Still a lot to read, but every chapter is condensed into a few paragraphs. The audio books are well done though.
GRRM posted his thoughts on the show ending:
How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…
Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?
How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.
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On May 21 2019 23:37 KwarK wrote:
Is there a list of all the book things that got left out. Glass candles, real Night King maybe being Bran the Builder who fell in love with a lady WW, Lady Stoneheart, wolf dreams, etc. etc.?
It might help show watchers to understand just how overgrown GRRM’s garden is and why he’s just given up on pruning it.
Probably not? There's so many minor/2ndary characters it'd be hard to catalogue them all.
The biggest ones relevant to the plot we saw during the show are probably:
(this list is also probably not comprehensive and doesn't include a ton of minor characters)
- Glass Candles (they're burning!)
- Doran is not an idiot in the books and may be one of the major players on the level of LF/Varys.
- Sand Snakes enacting the Dornish Master Plan [Dorne in the book has a daughter of Doran, not Elia, attempt a plot and that plot is to crown Myrcella as the true heir to the Iron Throne under Dornish law in an attempt to spark a war between Dorne and the 7 Kingdoms so Doran will commit to action.
- Varys and Illyrio backing "Young Griff" who they claim to be Aegon Targaryan (may be a Blackfyre?). Young Griff has begun a conquest of Westeroes to win Dany's favor.
- Cersei's prophecy includes being choked to death by a volanquar (younger brother)
- Jon's death likely involves warging and Ghost rather than just R'hollor bringing him back, though both are likely to come into play.
- Jon deserves mutiny in the books, he attempts to lead the Wildlings against Ramsay Bolton in violation of his oath. No one fails upwards better than Jon Snow.
- Alys Karstark is forcibly married to Ramsay as Arya Stark. Theon/Reek lies that Alys is Arya to vouch for the marriage.
- Mance Raider and his son. In the books Melisandre spares Mance by burning the Lord of Bones while using a shimmer trick to make him look like Mance. Mance has a child that is swapped with Sam Jr. and smuggled out when Sam and Gilly leave for Oldtown so Stannis won't burn or kill the child. Mance seems to have gone to try to rescue "Arya Stark" and possibly been captured and/or killed.
- Victorian, (brother of Balon and Euron) under orders of Euron, travels to Mareen for Dany. His mission is to woo Dany for Euron, but he may instead take Dany herself
- Asha/Yara is captured by Stannis rather than sailing to Mareen
- Lady Stonehart (Beric sacrifices himself to resurrect Cat, Cat then proceeds to systematically murder Freys and Lannisters).
- Brienne rather than traveling north falls in with Lady Stonehart and lures Jaime Lannister to her. Brienne has yet to meet Sansa or Arya at all
- Sam is still at the citadel having yet to do anything but has fallen in with a mysterious Maester there. There is also a Faceless man after something at the citadel.
- The Citadel is starting to be revealed to have much more motivation and plotting power than the show. They're possibly very anti-dragon/anti-magic in nature. Either way they're going to have something to say about the events upcoming.
- Selmy is still alive and is/was ruling Mareen in Dany's absence.
- Euron Greyjoy has a mysterious horn "Dragonbinder" that he claims can put a dragon under your will. It seems to kill people who blow it
- There is a Horn of Joramun that Mance was looking for. It's claimed to have the power to bring down the Ice Wall. Mance claimed to have found it (a claim that seems potentially dubious), but never blew it as Stannis' troops arrived.
- There are Giant Ice Spiders foreshadowed. This isn't plot relevant, but we didn't get Giant Ice Spiders and you should be mad maybe?
- Arya seems more committed to the House of Black and White (for now). She's successfully carried out one assassination and is going to apprentice under another Faceless Man.
- Bran's sight is more closely related to warging and weirwoods. Now that the south has chopped down many of the Weirwoods, there's less current events he can view down there. So he's not all seeing quite as much as the show.
- Littlefinger and Sansa are still in the Vale, Sansa's presence is not known publicly yet. The best we know of LF's plot at this point is he wants to wed his bastard daughter (Sansa) to the 2nd in line for the Vale (rip Robert?) then reveal Sansa and have her take Winterfell with help of the Vale.
- In one of the best Cersei moments in all of the books Cersei befriends Aurane Waters, a bastard ship captain that fought for Stannis then bends the knee for Joffery. Believing that Aurane desires Cerseis he puts a lot of power into his hands and makes him grand Admiral (Master of Ships more or less). Cersei funds a reconstruction of the Royal Fleet. Aurane builds the fleet, mans it with his men, then sails all the ships off and becomes a pirate.
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To be fair it was always more than self evident danny was a bad person; her very fucking initial goal is to conquer a foreign land because she thinks her blood gives her that right. She starts out as an advocate of: right of conquest, nobility, absolute monarchy, feudal society. She gets worse from there consistently every season. There was never any serious indication that danny was even half way decent let alone good.
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By that standard, everyone who wanted to be king was a bad person. Conversely Dany's main driving force beyond just conquest was freeing the slaves and protecting the weak, so there was plenty to say she was decent, if not good. Ideally GRRM wants most of his characters to be grey though. Capable of doing good and bad things in different situations.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://5movies.live/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Game-of-Thrones.jpg)
