On May 20 2019 14:10 KwarK wrote: Remember that scene with Meera leaving after getting Bran back and he’s like “l8r g8r” and she goes “really? Jojen died for this shit. Summer and Hodor died for this shit. Why are you such a dick Bran” only for him to explain that Bran is gone and he’s some weird Children of the Forest thing possessing Bran’s corpse?
I don’t think the writers remembered that. This is some Lost shit all over again.
I'm affraid that this is not on the writers anymore. It is GRRM's ending... and it's bad.
It's not. If GRRM intends for Bran to be King it changes EVRRYTHING. Bran has said repeatedly I'm not Bran I'm the 3ER. A blended collected conciousness of Children who hated humans so much they created the NK.
Book King Bran pretty much confirms Ragnarok theory.
I don't know if it was updated but the original Ragnarok theory was very flawed. It said that Aerys was Odin and Bloodraven was Loki, which is clearly nonsense. Bloodraven makes 1000% more sense as Odin than Aerys does.
Basically the reason why the theory said that Bloodraven was Loki is because it needed this to be true so that the Stark children could be Loki's wolves. You can't start from your conclusion like that. If a dude with one eye uses ravens as spies to see stuff around the world and binds himself to a tree to gain knowledge, he's Odin, that's all. So we can deduce that Martin used norse mythology as inspiration for his characters, and that's already an interesting thing to see. We don't need to shape our perception of who the characters are around the theory so that all of the story of ASOIAF fits norse mythology when, clearly, it doesn't.
Do you *really* think producers / writers just *didn't care* anymore? Like, I can see that one might not like it, but thinking that they just "didn't care" it's a bit silly imho
On May 21 2019 18:59 VHbb wrote: Do you *really* think producers / writers just *didn't care* anymore? Like, I can see that one might not like it, but thinking that they just "didn't care" it's a bit silly imho
Yes, I think the writing is so quantifiably bad that it shows they didn't care and wanted out so that they could make Disney bucks.
The other option is that this mess truely is the best thing D&D are capable of writing.
It's always tricky to read into some individual's creative effort in these. Some of the most brilliant musicians have also released unbeliavable stinkers. Often people lose their work ethic when the payroll, fame or fan pressure gets too big. The whole business is well equipped to derail a creative personality.
What bothers me a bit on with the GoT writing is how many of the awkward moments probably could have been avoided with fairly small changes. Someone posted somewhere an edit of the fleet ambushing dragons with a handful of quick cuts to the fleet hiding in some kind of cove and Dany seeing them too late. It wasn't by any means good judging by the series highest standards, but for that miniature fan effort it already improved things a lot.
Not impressed. My main quibble isn't with Drogon either being smart enough to know his mother had to die because she was evil (despite being a very willing accomplice in her act of evil) and wouldn't stop killing people, or being dumb enough to think the chair killed his mother. That was pretty dumb, but they had to resolve that point somehow, and just went with this. Not impressed, but meh.
My main quibble is with the absolutely retarded resolution to who rules the 7 Kingdoms. Firstly, we're supposed to believe that Grey Worm and the Dothraki threw Jon in a dungeon with Tyrion and kept the Queenslayer alive long enough to assemble a council of the lords. Let alone that they give a rat's ass what a bunch of fancy lords think. Why don't they all go on a pillaging and murdering spree all over Westeros? It's what Mhysa wanted, as we know from her Hitler speech. And Grey Worm has gone full psychopath too, so who is the calming influence on these two huge armies?
But lets get over that, apparently it happened. Grey Worm kept his cool, and protected Tyrion and Jon in a dungeon for months while the lords of the lands arrive. Who do we have there?
1. Lord Robin Arryn, Defender of the Vale. 2. Golden robe guy. Prince of Dorne. 3. Asha Greyjoy. Queen of the Iron Isles. 4. Sansa Stark. Interim Queen of the North. 5. Edmure Tully. Lord of Riverrun.
Now things start going slightly sideways. 6. Gendry Storm. I guess people went along with Daenerys legitimizing him and recognzing Robert Baratheon as his father. In which case he should have had a real claim to the throne. But /shrug. Okay, I guess? Lord of Storm's End. 7. Samwell Tarly. Heir of Summerhall, but also swore multiple times to lay no claims. Summerhall should go to a cousin or something.
And then things go completely haywire. 8. Arya Stark. Because... 9. Brandon Stark. Actual heir of Winterfell and should be Lord of Winterfell, but isn't because... reasons. But either he is the Lord of Winterfell, and Sansa should fuck off, or he isn't and he should fuck off. 10. Brienne of Tarth. Uhh... okay? 11. Yohn Royce. Should absolutely be there. But either him or Sweet Robin should have the say for the Vale. Not both.. 12. Ser Davos Seaworth. Lord of... Onions?
Missing: 13. Bronn of the Blackwater. Lord of Highgarden (apparently) 14. Jon Snow, King of the North. Aka Aegon Tagaryen, Heir apparent to the Iron Throne.
Tyrion does his whole little spiel, and names Brandon Stark Lord of the Realms. All hail Bran the Broken!
How this should have gone:
1. Asha Greyjoy says "fuck that shit, we're an idependent kingdom, and definitely don't bend the knee to a cripple. You will pay the iron price!" Storms off and raids the coast on her way back home. 2. Golden Robe guy says "who's that? Fuck it. Dorne is a free kingdom. We swear no fealty to northerners" 3. Sansa says "but I really wanted my little brother to have a kingdom. Oh well, he's still heir of Winterfell. All hail the King in the North" 4. Robin Arryn says "ok, I'll take my toys and go home now" 5. Gendry Storm makes moon eyes at Arya. 6. Edmure Tully wonders out loud why the fuck he came to meet this group of incompetent assholes.
The unsullied and Dothraki go about raping and pillaging everybody after slicing Tyrion and Jon's throats.
And thus the 7 Kingdoms fell apart and became 7 little warring nations again instead of 1 big warring nation.
Edit: Regarding laziness and the writers not caring anymore
And then there are all these small errors that simply point to laziness, like forgetting Sam is the older brother or making Gendry a Rivers.
Even if D&D don't care for details like this anymore, anyone with qualifications "has read the books", or even "has seen season 1-6" should have caught these instantly while proofreading the script. Which apparently didn't happen.
On May 21 2019 18:59 VHbb wrote: Do you *really* think producers / writers just *didn't care* anymore? Like, I can see that one might not like it, but thinking that they just "didn't care" it's a bit silly imho
It is on record that HBO wanted 10 seasons, but d&d wanted 7 and they made a compromise on 8 with 6 rather than 10 episodes.
Them also being mentally checked out makes sense, as their career depends on how well they do Star Wars, not how they finished GoT.
Acrofales, yes I agree that that is the logical way the story would end from a narrative-perspective. But is it also the way the writers should have written the story?
I already found it a bit strange that the ending focused on what the main characters would fill their everyday lives with. So now, Sansa is going to sit in that castle for the rest of her life? And we should feel happy about it? Does she have any friends? Ambitions? Is she going to get married? We see her sit in this absurd Disney dress and we see these rough Northern men declare her queen, and we should feel happy for her? I think it is kind of tragic.
The problem with this is that we all have no real idea about what these characters would want to do with their lives if there wasn't this conflict going on.
It is really that they ended the story with Jon killing Daenerys and they were like "Lets just add a bunch of happy stuff."
Ending this in a good and satisfying way was going to be really hard. I haven't seen any alternatives on how to do episode 6 differently that I find convincing, except ending the entire show after Dany dies.
What I find most strange is how they cut out essential scenes. Like Jon surrendering himself and explaining what he did. Or Jon telling Sansa and Arya about what he knows about his parents. Or Bran talking with Tyrion.
On May 21 2019 20:05 zatic wrote: And then there are all these small errors that simply point to laziness, like forgetting Sam is the older brother or making Gendry a Rivers.
Even if D&D don't care for details like this anymore, anyone with qualifications "has read the books", or even "has seen season 1-6" should have caught these instantly while proofreading the script. Which apparently didn't happen.
werent they all praising how the script was kept top secret with that fancy app that deleted it after reading it? Pretty sure D&D didnt allow anyone to proofread it and thats how this all turned out lol
The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners.
That's why I only highlighted them as additional support. On their own, no big deal (though those sorts of errors are quite rare in HBO-quality productions), but as one among a host of apparent oversights, and the interview admissions, they all add up to a pretty strong suggestion that attention to detail was discounted in the interest of other things.
On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote: The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners.
Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end.
On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote: The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners.
Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end.
I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore.
On May 21 2019 18:34 Nebuchad wrote: I don't know if it was updated but the original Ragnarok theory was very flawed. It said that Aerys was Odin and Bloodraven was Loki, which is clearly nonsense. Bloodraven makes 1000% more sense as Odin than Aerys does.
Basically the reason why the theory said that Bloodraven was Loki is because it needed this to be true so that the Stark children could be Loki's wolves. You can't start from your conclusion like that. If a dude with one eye uses ravens as spies to see stuff around the world and binds himself to a tree to gain knowledge, he's Odin, that's all. So we can deduce that Martin used norse mythology as inspiration for his characters, and that's already an interesting thing to see. We don't need to shape our perception of who the characters are around the theory so that all of the story of ASOIAF fits norse mythology when, clearly, it doesn't.
This happens way more than I realized. Look at this in the original theory:
"Hel & Surtr are represented by Melisandre & Jon Snow. Melisandre currently resides in an ice world, at the Wall (i.e. the Bifrost Bridge), and wears a glamor to hide the fact that she is either extremely old, or already dead (i.e. two faces). She is also an enemy of the Seven, and obsessed with death and sacrifice, constantly searching for king's blood to feed to her fires. And, up until this point, she has provided Stannis with his fiery sword."
Now let's look at Surtr's Wikipedia page:
"The völva says that, during Ragnarök, Surtr will come from the south with flames, carrying a very bright sword"
Okay so Surtr is obviously Stannis. Duh.
But because of the way he has built his theory, he needs Jon Snow to be Surtr, and so he just says that Jon Snow is Surtr because he's taken the black and he lives at the wall. Wholly unconvincing, wtf.
Even if you favor an actual Ragnarok theory, as opposed to just saying some characters are influenced by norse mythology, you should be able to get a picture that is more coherent with what we know if you don't let your own theory lead you into corners.
On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote: The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners.
Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end.
I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore.
Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo.
On May 21 2019 20:15 farvacola wrote: The fact that there have been at least two huge post-production flubs involving easily observable non-set pieces also supports an across the board lack of care on the part of the show runners.
Its probably due to budget/time constraints. The production crew practically made 6 feature films in just 2 years, most of those people were probably working 15+ hours a day for months on end.
I don't buy that. They told us to wait 2 years to improve the quality of the last season. This is plain BS for me. It's not 6 features films, the first 2 episodes are 50+ minutes. The last episode is 30 min of ppl walking/sitting in chairs. They just didn't care anymore.
Its not that simple. The amount of work the production crew has to put in the "just walking/sitting scenes" is quite a lot and it takes time. But that's besides the point, concluding they didn't care because of a plastic bottle and a coffee cup is stretching the argument too thin. Things like that aren't because of carelessness but because of few people having too much work to do in a short time and 2 years is incredibly short time for what we got in terms of production. The last few seasons had many problems, the few technical mistakes that have zero impact on the story are completely negligible and aren't even worth discussing imo.
I'm not discussing them actually, I just agree that this is another sign showing how much they didn't care to give us something great.
Let's admit that 2 years is not enough. HBO and Martin both wanted more time, more seasons, more episodes. They said no. They delivered us with shitty ending AND shitty production. How can you say it's not their fault ? THEY decided their own budget/time constraints. They blew it, badly.
On May 21 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote: actually if HBO really wanted more seasons why didnt they just find different people to do the series? lol
Because there was not enough reason to fire D&D when those negotiations were happening? Sure there was a bit of drop in quality after they ran out of book material but I don't think it was nearly bad enough to fire them for prior to season 7.
I have close to zero production issues whatsoever, in fact I really think they nailed a lot of it. A lot of it looks better than most to my eye, probably because they augment real locations rather than going full CG, there’s less of a. Uncanny
Botching so much in terms of plot, consistency and logic in and around all that spectacle is doubly bad because it drags the spectacle down with it.
Good ideas don’t cost money. Outside of memes on my Facebook feed this thread is really the only discussion I have on the show I have. Outside of not always being 100% my preference, basically every criticism or alternative plot, or suggestion on how to keep the same plot thread but do it better has been something I agree with wholeheartedly as being better than what we got.
I don’t know what happened, I don’t think the DnDs are complete hacks lacking talent, they’ve done good stuff before while diverging from Martin and the books before. Some of their changes in cutting bloat or suiting the medium have IMO been absolutely good choices and well done.
Did they lose interest and get lazy, or perhaps their desperation to avoid leaks hurt the process of constructive feedback and fixing things? Or was it a George Lucas surrounded by yes men scenario?
Who knows, it still sucks as a fan of the shows who then got into the books, and then sought out similar books to have it end this badly.
EPT
