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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 21 2019 01:36 Rasalased wrote:
I thought it was always clear that Jon was supposed to have no progress, despite all this foreshadowing that he should. Like the opposite of Daenerys who was exactly foreshadowed to be changing. Jon was exactly what he was portrayed to be, despite the audience wanting him to be more. And Daenerys was actually a complex character, despite being a shallow Mary Sue-like figure, and with the audience fearing that she would stop being a Mary Sue and change to be evil.
People keep talking about archs and about progression. Some good character do not progress. How is it lazy that Jon is what he is? People really need to learn how to differentiate between what they personally don't like, and what is objectively badly written.
Daenerys and Jon are the main characters of the show. Having absolutely no character progression for the only surviving MC in a character driven show is lazy writing for the ending. Lazy writing can be entertaining, but it's still lazy. Ygrittes death, didn't change him, Red Wedding, didn't change him, Sansa being raped and abused, didn't change him. In the last season they were literally drowning in opportunities to redeem and grow his character but decided to just essentially turn him into nothing short of a static plot device.
The show went from being filled with twists and depth into story telling you'd expect in a B-movie. The ending left absolutely no impact on me and my headcanon is already it just ends with Dany sitting in the ashes on the Iron Throne with a smug face queue outro.
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The end credits made me think about the show as a whole and I definitely don't regret watching it. I want to add something but don't know what. I could list all the things I didn't like about the last few seasons and say those are heavily outweighed by the good stuff, but that wouldn't do the show justice.
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oh thank god its over. What a nightmare of a season. I'll be rewatching seasons 1-6 many times tho.
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Has anyone read Fire & Blood? Is that stuff worth reading or is it shit like last two asofai books?
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I mean, that was kind of a neutral ending. It was okay.
Doesn't salvage the rest of the season but doesn't dig it a deeper hole either.
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On May 21 2019 05:01 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean, that was kind of a neutral ending. It was okay.
Doesn't salvage the rest of the season but doesn't dig it a deeper hole either.
Yeah, that was my thinking as well. It works as long as you don't have high expectations
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Only good thing about this shitshow of an episode are people making fun of the episode..
+ Show Spoiler +
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What a lackluster season.
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On May 21 2019 02:06 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Well firstly it depends on how we look at bran's powers and what they mean. Either we think it simply means determinism where noone can really choose to do anything and time/everything already played out. There is no agency left for anyone at that point.
If we don't, then it's first arguable if he even knows everything perfectly, the honest answer is that he is a plot device to make people know these things, in universe there is no real reason.
You realize that you cannot have determinism, causality, and visions from the future at the same time, right? This opens a huge can of worms and absurdities. This simply has to remain closed. There has to be a simple logical answer to this question, or you could have just as well not told a story in the first place. Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It happening and them telling us that he basically knows everything is kinda weak, isn't it?
Of course it is weak. But this is literally what the characters are telling each other on the show. I am not making this up. I always think in these debates that others remember exaclty like I do everything that was said. But maybe I need to slowly start to realize that others do not. So from the subtitle file. But I ask you now, if we choose you will you wear the crown? Will you lead the Seven Kingdoms to the best of your abilities from this day until your last day? Why do you think I came all this way? To Brandon of House Stark I say aye source: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=game-of-thrones&episode=s08e06 Yes but it doesn't setup that bran was scheming to get to power. It might imply he knew he would get it, if he truly knows everything. We don't know if that is indeed true or not. Bran isn't developed, he is used as a plot device. There is also no payoff if it was indeed their plan, there is no WTF moment there, no twist ending. Nothing. It is the last episode. You have a surprise king selection. And the only thing the writers tell us about this new king is that he already knew he was going to be king. Why would you him being evil or plotting or a secret mastermind in one of the last scenes of your last episode? You had all these empty plot threads about the 3ER, Bran, NK and the lord of light, and you deliberately refuse to answer them and move on from the story. And then you hint at Bran manipulating events to be king. So your interpretation is that the future is 100% determined and Bran seeing the future gives him zero power as knowing or not knowing the future won't make you do anything different? Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As Logo already said, the setup is the complete opposite, he says he doesn't want it, he doesn't want anything. They tell us the best kings are the ones who don't have any desire to be king. It's right there.
Well yes, if anything the story tells us that the best kings are those who don't want to have power. But at the same time, we have this character about which we don't really know if he is still a person that has seen both the past and possible futures and can time travel that has been 'manipulating' events based on the futures he has already seen. We know as an audience that he knew the Night King was going to be killed by Arya using the Cat'spaw dagger at that Weirwood tree. There is a difference between setup and payoff and people trying to rationalize things together. It could have been a nice payoff if the show actually went for it, but it didn't. We got the opposite in fact, everything seem to be just fine, no hint at bran planning it all along, nothing. I don't know what you even mean by this? Are you saying that we should realize that this scene was cinematic symbolism and has zero plot consequences? This is not how a story works. A scene has meaning. Bran either has a power or he has not. It doens't matter if the writers go out of their way to create a payoff. I mean, you aren't even saying this was a coincidence. Just that the writers did this but only used it as a payoff for one thing, and that we should completely ignore this 'setup' for everything else in the story that is not that specific payoff. You seem to propose that people should watch a tv series and be in a QM superposition about whether something happened or not depending on payoff. Bran told them they should put him in the King's Wood during the battle for Winterfell. Why? His visions. If he hadn't said anything, he wouldn't have been there and the NK would have come from him somewhere else. But he clearly changed events based on his vision. And he clearly had a very accurate vision a very long time before the Winterfell battle. Yes, it could be that Bran had this single very specific vision of Arya killing the NK. But we know he had more visions, And now we have a a scene of him admitting that he knew why to come to KL. And you say it doesn't matter because there was no payoff? What does that mean? Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is "grasping at straws" insofar that people try to add complexity to something which isn't there, probably because what we got is kinda disappointing. 'Grasping at straws' means that you are trying to be positive in a desperate situation. In this context, it should refer to finding any 'straw' to defend the show as being positive. Explaining things you apparently missed that show the last episode was a train wreak on more levels that you realize is not 'grasping at straws'. But that is what you are doing? You try to find deeper meaning to this ending, that bran was the chessplayer all along and everything we saw was his plan to get to power. That's a positive interpretation of the things which happened, without the show actually trying to get you to that conclusion, where is the payoff? All we get are some funny council meetings where bran says he is searching for the dragon. Don't you think there would be some ending scene where something like this is implied, to get a "holy shit" moment? That would be effective storytelling, if it indeed was going on. So yeah, you are indeed "grasping at straws" here. The theory would work if there was added content, right now this added content only exists in your head. Dude, it is not a theory. It is the writers bungling things. They tell us nothing about what Bran is really doing and what his effect on the story is. Ever since Bran returned to Winterfell and drops creepy hints that he 'knows stuff', we don't see anyone talk to him. Everyone is straight out ignoring Bran. Until Tyrion talks to him off camera. And then the NK dies exactly as Bran foresaw it would happen. Then Bran betrays Ned and Jon by telling Sansa that Jon is a Targaryan (because that is what 'it is your choice' means), which directly causes one of the visions we know he already had. And then he magically becomes king, I guess literally through magic, and the writers drop even more odd hints. Him suddenly saying he is going to find Drogon is just one other example that you bring up. What does that mean? It gives rise to all these crazy theories that the 3ER used the Night King to posses Bran and to become King. I mean, if the story tells us that Bran is no longer Bran and we see no sigh of Bran being an actual person, why isn't the 3ER or the Night King controlling Bran's body? Why do you add scenes to your last episode to fuel all these crazy theories while in all other scenes you are trying to bring closure? I am literally saying it isn't a theory, that it shouldn't, be and that these scenes shouldn't be there. Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:53 Dazed. wrote:
What do you think i mean? It is apparent who he is because we know how he was raised, the values he began with, the events that shaped his life, we saw him make fucking choices for years. If knowing someone for years doesnt mean you know them then what the fuck are we even talking about? We were made to understand bran as the audience just as were made to understand every major character. The hijink is that he then became a robotic prophet like figure, but again, everything that was explicitly put in-- dialogue, musical score, actual acting, all went along exactly with what he was presenting himself to be: an unemotional robot who knew a bunch of shit in the past.
I literally don't know if the person that is in Bran's body has anything to do with Bran. And whoever is in there, it only tried to give off a creepy vibe. Yes, it helped kill the Night King, so everyone around him have to assume he is benevolent. But the audience knows more. Maybe you should rewatch the Sansa and Bran reunion scene. Sansa is all happy to see her little brother again and relived that there is now a lord of Winterfell. And all Bran has to say is that he has to speak with Jon and that he cannot be a lord of anything because he is the 3ER (a phrase which he knows doesn't mean anything to her). And the writers have Sansa say: "I don't know what that means." and then Bran basically tells Sansa "I was watching when Ramsey raped you." with Sansa looking super-disturbed and then immediately leaving while Bran actually asks her to stay a bit longer. Sansa basically rejects Bran as a brother for being a creep. So Bran doesn't know what other people know or how they perceive him. But he has something important to tell to Jon. Namely R+L=J. And the only thing R+L=J did in the story is drive Jon and Daenerys apart and cause Daenerys to burn KL. And they vote him to be king based on Tyrion's chat with him, and then drop even more hints that something is very wrong with Bran. This is literally what the story is. Not anything more, but also not anything less.
I didn't articulate it well here, the main point is that if the story wants to have us believe that bran was indeed planing this all along, him having the desire to be king and thus influencing everything around him to get to that ending, the story needs to have some form of payoff at the end when it happens.
That would happen in some form of scene where it is laid out for the audience, it could still be somewhat ambigious, but it has to be there to have any impact. There was nothing though.
So what we have right now is bran indeed doing things which then lead to bran becoming king, but that would also be the case if he didn't scheme anything, but used some of his powers for information. Aka being used as a plot device on a narrative level.
I am also not quite sure why one cannot have determinism, causality and visions at the same time? Narratively it destroys agency if one thinks about it because we would know there is no other way in the first place.
So for storytelling it's dangerous to use.
The writers simply had no idea what to do with bran, other than using him as a plot device. That is why they didn't give us any real meaning, the only thing they indeed setup was bran becoming king with the whole "the best king is the one who doesn't want to be one" thing, which first suggests jon but ultimately fits bran even more. That's it.
People hoped there would be more to bran, which is why all these theories of evil bran started, but that was never the intention of the writers.
For me personally the most interesting part about this ending is the thoughts about how this will happen in the books honestly, why would jon go back to the nightswatch and why would bran be king.
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Memes this season have been glorious. I never laughed so much. Tnx D&D, if you two have not been so bad at your job I would not have laughed so much in these past 5 weeks.
On May 21 2019 04:43 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
oh thank god its over. What a nightmare of a season. I'll be rewatching seasons 1-6 many times tho.
I will be rewatching the memes of season 8 many times 
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"I know a killer when I see one"
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On May 20 2019 11:23 Warri wrote:
As a final parting gift, drogon created some valyrian steel out of the iron throne!
Anyone else felt like the initial scenes were a bit too Star Wars'y? Felt so much like the First Order scenes from TFA.
Yea I thought Dany looked like a Sith Lord when she begun her speech. The dragon wings behind her were over the top, but the whole setting looked cool. Star Wars'y cool, but still cool.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
A few things I wouldn’t have included for sure, I didn’t mind the finale all in all.
Needed another series alas, or at least 3-4 more episodes. Basically most of the beats of this needed more breathing room and more material.
Based off what lead into it I thought it was decent, first episode this season that was better rather than worse than what I was expecting.
As borderline epilogues to a terribly disappointing final stretch go, it lives or dies off what preceded it of course.
Almost everything this season feels fine to me in a plot direction sense and almost always feels massively premature and underwhelming when it happens.
Arya killing the Night King - Fine but like that? Why not as part of a group desperation fight?
Varys/Tyrion scheming/betrayal - Fine but so rushed that Varys did a Littlefinger and seemingly forgot how to scheme, which would have new explicable if it was a desperation play from him except he didn’t seem to have enough to go off to be that desperate.
Dany going mad - Fine but she went from tinges of Machiavellian ruthlessness to genocide insane
I mean I could go on but basically everything feels like that for me, or even worse doesn’t even feel rushed but completely lacking in continuity.
Dany’s forces are shown to be decimated in The Long Night, then for plot convenience they’re still equivalent with Cersei’s?
I say convenience but in that particular instance I think it’s actually an inconvenience.
If Dany has a way weaker standing army, but the Westeros equivalent of a nuke in a dragon, then she’s actually placed in a dilemma between ultimately losing, or winning but using the nuke. If she uses the nuke, It’s explicable as pure ruthlessness in pursuit of the throne, Jon and Tyrion can still turn on her anyway, without making her absolutely irrationally crazy for an episode in a won battle.
This shit is basic stuff, I’m not a writer, I’m borderline sentient and I know this, the fuck were DnD doing? Every element is better in that version, consistency with the character, the moral dilemma and the subsequent emotional turmoil in her allies turning on her.
Wow Jon killed Dany because she flew around for 20 minutes of episode time actively burning civilians, what a dilemma for the man given his record in doing the right thing. Vs Dany defeats Cersei in the only way she actually could, innocents die en masse and Jon has a legitimate moral dilemma on his hands.
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On May 21 2019 05:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am also not quite sure why one cannot have determinism, causality and visions at the same time? Narratively it destroys agency if one thinks about it because we would know there is no other way in the first place.
So for storytelling it's dangerous to use.
Because the future vision is changing your actions. And changing your actions is what caused that future which you see in your vision in the first place. So the vision caused itself.
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On May 21 2019 06:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I wouldn’t have included for sure, I didn’t mind the finale all in all.
Needed another series alas, or at least 3-4 more episodes. Basically most of the beats of this needed more breathing room and more material.
Based off what lead into it I thought it was decent, first episode this season that was better rather than worse than what I was expecting.
As borderline epilogues to a terribly disappointing final stretch go, it lives or dies off what preceded it of course.
Almost everything this season feels fine to me in a plot direction sense and almost always feels massively premature and underwhelming when it happens.
Arya killing the Night King - Fine but like that? Why not as part of a group desperation fight?
Varys/Tyrion scheming/betrayal - Fine but so rushed that Varys did a Littlefinger and seemingly forgot how to scheme, which would have new explicable if it was a desperation play from him except he didn’t seem to have enough to go off to be that desperate.
Dany going mad - Fine but she went from tinges of Machiavellian ruthlessness to genocide insane
I mean I could go on but basically everything feels like that for me, or even worse doesn’t even feel rushed but completely lacking in continuity.
Dany’s forces are shown to be decimated in The Long Night, then for plot convenience they’re still equivalent with Cersei’s?
I say convenience but in that particular instance I think it’s actually an inconvenience.
If Dany has a way weaker standing army, but the Westeros equivalent of a nuke in a dragon, then she’s actually placed in a dilemma between ultimately losing, or winning but using the nuke. If she uses the nuke, It’s explicable as pure ruthlessness in pursuit of the throne, Jon and Tyrion can still turn on her anyway, without making her absolutely irrationally crazy for an episode in a won battle.
This shit is basic stuff, I’m not a writer, I’m borderline sentient and I know this, the fuck were DnD doing? Every element is better in that version, consistency with the character, the moral dilemma and the subsequent emotional turmoil in her allies turning on her.
Wow Jon killed Dany because she flew around for 20 minutes of episode time actively burning civilians, what a dilemma for the man given his record in doing the right thing. Vs Dany defeats Cersei in the only way she actually could, innocents die en masse and Jon has a legitimate moral dilemma on his hands.
I don't think additional episodes would help. In the abstract sense they would, you're right about needing breathing room.
But the problem is the show do the leg work didn't gear up for that. They never replaced dead characters to the extent the books do so the cast just isn't big enough to drive additional content. Even if you wrote top notch dialogue, the conversations would stagnant and the plotting feel shallow because there's just not enough people to drive the plots around.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On May 21 2019 06:36 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 06:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I wouldn’t have included for sure, I didn’t mind the finale all in all.
Needed another series alas, or at least 3-4 more episodes. Basically most of the beats of this needed more breathing room and more material.
Based off what lead into it I thought it was decent, first episode this season that was better rather than worse than what I was expecting.
As borderline epilogues to a terribly disappointing final stretch go, it lives or dies off what preceded it of course.
Almost everything this season feels fine to me in a plot direction sense and almost always feels massively premature and underwhelming when it happens.
Arya killing the Night King - Fine but like that? Why not as part of a group desperation fight?
Varys/Tyrion scheming/betrayal - Fine but so rushed that Varys did a Littlefinger and seemingly forgot how to scheme, which would have new explicable if it was a desperation play from him except he didn’t seem to have enough to go off to be that desperate.
Dany going mad - Fine but she went from tinges of Machiavellian ruthlessness to genocide insane
I mean I could go on but basically everything feels like that for me, or even worse doesn’t even feel rushed but completely lacking in continuity.
Dany’s forces are shown to be decimated in The Long Night, then for plot convenience they’re still equivalent with Cersei’s?
I say convenience but in that particular instance I think it’s actually an inconvenience.
If Dany has a way weaker standing army, but the Westeros equivalent of a nuke in a dragon, then she’s actually placed in a dilemma between ultimately losing, or winning but using the nuke. If she uses the nuke, It’s explicable as pure ruthlessness in pursuit of the throne, Jon and Tyrion can still turn on her anyway, without making her absolutely irrationally crazy for an episode in a won battle.
This shit is basic stuff, I’m not a writer, I’m borderline sentient and I know this, the fuck were DnD doing? Every element is better in that version, consistency with the character, the moral dilemma and the subsequent emotional turmoil in her allies turning on her.
Wow Jon killed Dany because she flew around for 20 minutes of episode time actively burning civilians, what a dilemma for the man given his record in doing the right thing. Vs Dany defeats Cersei in the only way she actually could, innocents die en masse and Jon has a legitimate moral dilemma on his hands. I don't think additional episodes would help. In the abstract sense they would, you're right about needing breathing room. But the problem is the show do the leg work didn't gear up for that. They never replaced dead characters to the extent the books do so the cast just isn't big enough to drive additional content. Even if you wrote top notch dialogue, the conversations would stagnant and the plotting feel shallow because there's just not enough people to drive the plots around.
Disagree, even towards the end I felt there were too many characters to wrap things up in the runtime, especially when they didn’t massacre half the cast in episode 3 although less with interesting motivations for sure. The likes of Tywin were big losses and characters I loved, I felt they shone when it was setup and political intrigue, given how the focus was shifting towards the end, I was ok with good/bad and a bit of grey here and there if it was done well.
Still more than enough for a relatively simplified, but still well-realised finish to the show’s run.
Euron is a character they could have cut from the show almost entirely, yes he’s new but they were already lacking in time.
Other botches aside Dorne same thing. Good subplot in the books but they probably could have cut it entirely and focused more tightly on the characters we did have on the final stretch.
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On May 21 2019 06:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 06:36 Logo wrote:On May 21 2019 06:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I wouldn’t have included for sure, I didn’t mind the finale all in all.
Needed another series alas, or at least 3-4 more episodes. Basically most of the beats of this needed more breathing room and more material.
Based off what lead into it I thought it was decent, first episode this season that was better rather than worse than what I was expecting.
As borderline epilogues to a terribly disappointing final stretch go, it lives or dies off what preceded it of course.
Almost everything this season feels fine to me in a plot direction sense and almost always feels massively premature and underwhelming when it happens.
Arya killing the Night King - Fine but like that? Why not as part of a group desperation fight?
Varys/Tyrion scheming/betrayal - Fine but so rushed that Varys did a Littlefinger and seemingly forgot how to scheme, which would have new explicable if it was a desperation play from him except he didn’t seem to have enough to go off to be that desperate.
Dany going mad - Fine but she went from tinges of Machiavellian ruthlessness to genocide insane
I mean I could go on but basically everything feels like that for me, or even worse doesn’t even feel rushed but completely lacking in continuity.
Dany’s forces are shown to be decimated in The Long Night, then for plot convenience they’re still equivalent with Cersei’s?
I say convenience but in that particular instance I think it’s actually an inconvenience.
If Dany has a way weaker standing army, but the Westeros equivalent of a nuke in a dragon, then she’s actually placed in a dilemma between ultimately losing, or winning but using the nuke. If she uses the nuke, It’s explicable as pure ruthlessness in pursuit of the throne, Jon and Tyrion can still turn on her anyway, without making her absolutely irrationally crazy for an episode in a won battle.
This shit is basic stuff, I’m not a writer, I’m borderline sentient and I know this, the fuck were DnD doing? Every element is better in that version, consistency with the character, the moral dilemma and the subsequent emotional turmoil in her allies turning on her.
Wow Jon killed Dany because she flew around for 20 minutes of episode time actively burning civilians, what a dilemma for the man given his record in doing the right thing. Vs Dany defeats Cersei in the only way she actually could, innocents die en masse and Jon has a legitimate moral dilemma on his hands. I don't think additional episodes would help. In the abstract sense they would, you're right about needing breathing room. But the problem is the show do the leg work didn't gear up for that. They never replaced dead characters to the extent the books do so the cast just isn't big enough to drive additional content. Even if you wrote top notch dialogue, the conversations would stagnant and the plotting feel shallow because there's just not enough people to drive the plots around. Disagree, even towards the end I felt there were too many characters to wrap things up in the runtime, especially when they didn’t massacre half the cast in episode 3 although less with interesting motivations for sure. The likes of Tywin were big losses and characters I loved, I felt they shone when it was setup and political intrigue, given how the focus was shifting towards the end, I was ok with good/bad and a bit of grey here and there if it was done well. Still more than enough for a relatively simplified, but still well-realised finish to the show’s run. Euron is a character they could have cut from the show almost entirely, yes he’s new but they were already lacking in time. Other botches aside Dorne same thing. Good subplot in the books but they probably could have cut it entirely and focused more tightly on the characters we did have on the final stretch.
Well take Cersei, there's no one in s7/s8 for her to really talk to if you give her more breathing room. Euron *has* to teleport around because if he's not in King's Landing Cersei basically doesn't have anyone to talk to, or anyone else to fight for her.
We want intrigue from Tyrion/Varys, but they have no one to talk to or scheme with/around except overly big people (Dany, Jon, Sansa) who are outright rulers. We are missing characters like Margeary, Pycell, (early season) Varys, Littlefinger, etc. that serve as important characters that we don't know the motivations for and add the reflection and intrigue into the scheming. You need those extra people that can be worked around, with, or presented with an alternative set of motivations to make the dialogue interesting that the schemes compelling.
I think we could have had 7 episodes, or a tigher 6 episodes. But 9 or 10+ episodes would really have been pushing it for what we had to work with I think.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On May 21 2019 06:52 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 06:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 21 2019 06:36 Logo wrote:On May 21 2019 06:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I wouldn’t have included for sure, I didn’t mind the finale all in all.
Needed another series alas, or at least 3-4 more episodes. Basically most of the beats of this needed more breathing room and more material.
Based off what lead into it I thought it was decent, first episode this season that was better rather than worse than what I was expecting.
As borderline epilogues to a terribly disappointing final stretch go, it lives or dies off what preceded it of course.
Almost everything this season feels fine to me in a plot direction sense and almost always feels massively premature and underwhelming when it happens.
Arya killing the Night King - Fine but like that? Why not as part of a group desperation fight?
Varys/Tyrion scheming/betrayal - Fine but so rushed that Varys did a Littlefinger and seemingly forgot how to scheme, which would have new explicable if it was a desperation play from him except he didn’t seem to have enough to go off to be that desperate.
Dany going mad - Fine but she went from tinges of Machiavellian ruthlessness to genocide insane
I mean I could go on but basically everything feels like that for me, or even worse doesn’t even feel rushed but completely lacking in continuity.
Dany’s forces are shown to be decimated in The Long Night, then for plot convenience they’re still equivalent with Cersei’s?
I say convenience but in that particular instance I think it’s actually an inconvenience.
If Dany has a way weaker standing army, but the Westeros equivalent of a nuke in a dragon, then she’s actually placed in a dilemma between ultimately losing, or winning but using the nuke. If she uses the nuke, It’s explicable as pure ruthlessness in pursuit of the throne, Jon and Tyrion can still turn on her anyway, without making her absolutely irrationally crazy for an episode in a won battle.
This shit is basic stuff, I’m not a writer, I’m borderline sentient and I know this, the fuck were DnD doing? Every element is better in that version, consistency with the character, the moral dilemma and the subsequent emotional turmoil in her allies turning on her.
Wow Jon killed Dany because she flew around for 20 minutes of episode time actively burning civilians, what a dilemma for the man given his record in doing the right thing. Vs Dany defeats Cersei in the only way she actually could, innocents die en masse and Jon has a legitimate moral dilemma on his hands. I don't think additional episodes would help. In the abstract sense they would, you're right about needing breathing room. But the problem is the show do the leg work didn't gear up for that. They never replaced dead characters to the extent the books do so the cast just isn't big enough to drive additional content. Even if you wrote top notch dialogue, the conversations would stagnant and the plotting feel shallow because there's just not enough people to drive the plots around. Disagree, even towards the end I felt there were too many characters to wrap things up in the runtime, especially when they didn’t massacre half the cast in episode 3 although less with interesting motivations for sure. The likes of Tywin were big losses and characters I loved, I felt they shone when it was setup and political intrigue, given how the focus was shifting towards the end, I was ok with good/bad and a bit of grey here and there if it was done well. Still more than enough for a relatively simplified, but still well-realised finish to the show’s run. Euron is a character they could have cut from the show almost entirely, yes he’s new but they were already lacking in time. Other botches aside Dorne same thing. Good subplot in the books but they probably could have cut it entirely and focused more tightly on the characters we did have on the final stretch. Well take Cersei, there's no one in s7/s8 for her to really talk to if you give her more breathing room. Euron *has* to teleport around because if he's not in King's Landing Cersei basically doesn't have anyone to talk to, or anyone else to fight for her. We want intrigue from Tyrion/Varys, but they have no one to talk to or scheme with/around except overly big people (Dany, Jon, Sansa) who are outright rulers. We are missing characters like Margeary, Pycell, (early season) Varys, Littlefinger, etc. that serve as important characters that we don't know the motivations for and add the reflection and intrigue into the scheming. You need those extra people that can be worked around, with, or presented with an alternative set of motivations to make the dialogue interesting that the schemes compelling. I think we could have had 7 episodes, or a tigher 6 episodes. But 9 or 10+ episodes would really have been pushing it for what we had to work with I think.
Pycell largely sucks, he’s established super early as being a sycophant who bends with the winds, he’s not particularly interesting.
Margaery’s arc was pretty good. I liked it overall, wasn’t anywhere to go really with it. She was two-faced and manipulative, knew how to use her sexual whiles. An escalating war of wills with Cersei, who overestimated her ability to keep Tommen in line, and Marg who realised but too late that Cersei was going to go to insane lengths, was fine for me. That Cersei ‘won’ but lost her child as a result addedef fo that arc, but the arc was basically mother vs the hot girlfriend all in all. Outside of that Margaery isn’t really that interesting as a character, she’s basically the sexual foil to Cersei’s parental devotion.
Varys still has enough to work with if it’s not executed so horribly. A Varys realising, over time in a way that’s understandable that Dany is bad news, trying to scheme and ultimately failing works fine for me. As it was he went from ‘Dany is mad yo’ (with no compelling evidence) to being executed in an episode.
Jon turning on Dany has plenty of potential if it’s not an obvious, 100%, easy choice to make with relation to his previous actions.
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I don't think they should have cut Euron. If defeating Cersei is the last part of the story and in that part all her old allies are dead, they need more allies for her. Euron and Qyburn were the only ones. She needed more, not less. Also, Euron wasn't really involved in things that went nowhere or sideplots that were just about him.
I think that the Dorne plot is the most obvious one to cut. Also Arya's plot in Braavos and everything with the High Septum. I think all that went nowhere. I even think Theon and Ramsey was not needed.
This all comes back to what your story is truly about.
I think Pycell is one of the worst and absurd characters on the show. He deliberately acts like a fool to others don't think of him as a threat? That seemed to silly. In that deleted scene with Tywin he is completely different.
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