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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It happening and them telling us that he basically knows everything is kinda weak, isn't it? As Logo already said, the setup is the complete opposite, he says he doesn't want it, he doesn't want anything. They tell us the best kings are the ones who don't have any desire to be king. It's right there. It is "grasping at straws" insofar that people try to add complexity to something which isn't there, probably because what we got is kinda disappointing. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
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KwarK
United States42673 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:16 Dazed. wrote: We know nothing of bran? We spent seasons with him, an entire show with his family. In so far as bran is bran, of course we know him. To the degree that he isnt, we just have to accept what is told to us by him and by the writers and by the damn acting; he became an unemotional robot. And it does, to some extent, fit with the logic of who he is. I have a hard time believing someone would be concerned by the present if they could live at any point in the past or inhabit birds to fly, whatever. Anyway, your grasping at straws Rasalased. Bran literally says he’s not Bran anymore. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Bran literally says he’s not Bran anymore. So we have to believe that, but not the other things he literally says for no benefit of anyone except the viewer? I think the finale posed three somewhat interesting questions with varying success in execution:
I know genocide and all that, the execution maybe not so much here for point 3, but the implication is still. Is the world meaningfully better (besides no Night King threat)? It feels like the result is an incremental change and the wheel is still very much in tact. That raises the question of if Dany was right that the people who support the system could never break the wheel. So even if Dany is mad and committing unforgivable actions, she may actually be... right? It actually ties back into the Lord of Light themes where you have this god as a cause for good (overall) causing unspeakable horror, while other religions (Old Gods) seem like they commit good actions, but are they actually working towards evil ends. What is right and wrong in that situation? | ||
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Rasalased
89 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: If you want to believe that Bran's (the 3ER's) ultimate goal was always to become king then i'd ask how that manifests itself into any kind of foreshadowing or setup? Then why did he talk to Sam and tell him to tell Jon about his parents? Why did he tell Sansa that Jon had a secret? Why did he come to King's Landing? It happening and them telling us that he basically knows everything is kinda weak, isn't it? Of course it is weak. But this is literally what the characters are telling each other on the show. I am not making this up. I always think in these debates that others remember exaclty like I do everything that was said. But maybe I need to slowly start to realize that others do not. So from the subtitle file. But I ask you now, if we choose you will you wear the crown? Will you lead the Seven Kingdoms to the best of your abilities from this day until your last day? Why do you think I came all this way? To Brandon of House Stark I say aye source: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=game-of-thrones&episode=s08e06 As Logo already said, the setup is the complete opposite, he says he doesn't want it, he doesn't want anything. They tell us the best kings are the ones who don't have any desire to be king. It's right there. Well yes, if anything the story tells us that the best kings are those who don't want to have power. But at the same time, we have this character about which we don't really know if he is still a person that has seen both the past and possible futures and can time travel that has been 'manipulating' events based on the futures he has already seen. We know as an audience that he knew the Night King was going to be killed by Arya using the Cat'spaw dagger at that Weirwood tree. It is "grasping at straws" insofar that people try to add complexity to something which isn't there, probably because what we got is kinda disappointing. 'Grasping at straws' means that you are trying to be positive in a desperate situation. In this context, it should refer to finding any 'straw' to defend the show as being positive. Explaining things you apparently missed that show the last episode was a train wreak on more levels that you realize is not 'grasping at straws'. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:26 Logo wrote: Yes, you follow the lady who can survive engulfing flames and who has the most magnificent "horse" you've ever seen. She kills the khals, says she's khal, and has a Dragon to enforce that she is the khal. Why wouldn't they follow that sort of power? Jon has what? he's going to 1v1 all the other potential khals? Okay, I got that logic from dothraki point of view. Let it be. Jos had a prophecy, L+R parents, he was resurrected and yes... he has nothing. He's meaningless in season 8, final blow could be delivered by anyone at this point. And there was no difference at all who were his parents for a plotline. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote: Then why did he talk to Sam and tell him to tell Jon about his parents? Why did he tell Sansa that Jon had a secret? Why did he come to King's Landing? He committed all those actions to work towards a good outcome, but that doesn't mean he was scheming to get himself power. We first off don't know how much he actually knows about the future. The show initially establishes he sees "fragments" that are hard to piece together, but then renegs on that and goes a different direction. Lets assume a complete knowledge world because unfortunately we have to... Telling Jon about his parents gave him the objectivity to do what had to be done about Dany. Otherwise Jon would likely have stood with Dany. Him saying he came to take the kingship doesn't imply he schemed or wanted it in a Littlefinger style way. It just means he saw that it was what he had to do and knew Tyrion would offer it to him. | ||
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Rasalased
89 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:37 Logo wrote: To be clear I even like Bran-as-king mostly! But still has to be taken that he wasn't scheming and is just doing what he thinks is best for the sake of doing right by people. So we have to believe that, but not the other things he literally says for no benefit of anyone except the viewer? You are incapable of placing something that someone said in context? Saying "Well, I don't really want to be king." when you know they are about to name you king, and you want it. is not the same as randomly saying "I am not really Bran anymore." In fact, in the real world in politics saying, "I want job X" is the best way to ensure you will never get 'job X'. On May 21 2019 00:47 Logo wrote: He committed all those actions to work towards a good outcome, but that doesn't mean he was scheming to get himself power. How can you work towards a good outcome for the entire kingdom without having any power? And why does he get to decide what is 'good'. He literally told no one "Wow I have this ability to see the future and I think I know events are going to unfold this way and that." The story literally says that Bran decided to have King's Landing completely burned down; How is this a 'good outcome'? We first off don't know how much he actually knows about the future. The show initially establishes he sees "fragments" that are hard to piece together, but then renegs on that and goes a different direction. Lets assume a complete knowledge world because unfortunately we have to... Which doesn't make the story any better. They have him give the dagger to Arya standing at the exact spot where the NK gets killed. And then we have Bran being really smug as if he already knows exactly what is going to happen and nothing can change that anymore. And he doesn't seem to fucking care about all of it. Why isn't it really irking that Theon apparently dies for nothing? And yes, the story also suggests that Bran knew Theon was going to die defending him against the NK. Telling Jon about his parents gave him the objectivity to do what had to be done about Dany. Otherwise Jon would likely have stood with Dany. Why and how? Jon wasn't going to betray Daenerys until Tyrion basically told Jon "She will do the same to Arya and Sansa," I don't think Jon believes he had to be Targaryan for it to be moral for him to stop Daenerys. All the story tells us is that Jon doesn't care about birthright. Him saying he came to take the kingship doesn't imply he schemed or wanted it in a Littlefinger style way. It just means he saw that it was what he had to do and knew Tyrion would offer it to him. Yes, Littlefinger is less creepy and his scheming killed less people. And Bran's first action as king is apparently to give Bronn High Garden and make him master of coin and make Bronn talk about brothels, as if Bronn is Littlefinger. Look, I am not saying that there is no way to tell this story in another way. But as it is right now, Bran manipulated events so King's Landing, and all its inhabitants, were burned to ashes. There was no one left to be king, and then out of the blue they all voted him to be king just because he happened to be there as well. And he was there, because he already knew this was going to happen. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
Everything ends in an idealistic fashion with everyone but Sansa agreeing to be ruled by Bran, and a new "voting" system proposed for future kings, with no actual rules for what happens if there is a tie, more than 2 candidates or if other kingdoms just decide to go independent. Half the people voting aren't lords of anything, and Bronn is now the lord of High Garden, but not there. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:48 Rasalased wrote: You are incapable of placing something that someone said in context? Saying "Well, I don't really king." when you know they are about to name you king, and you want it. is not the same as randomly saying "I am not really Bran anymore." In fact, in the real world in politics saying, "I want job X" is the best way to ensure you will never get 'job X'. He says he doesn't want to be King *after* being unanimously named king? He says it in the context of his first act as King of the realm. He says he isn't Bran and doesn't feel anymore to a woman who's incredibly loyal to him but completely powerless to enact any meaningful change. Are we supposed to ignore that? | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Brans payoff will come. He made Bronn master of coin and Bronns first mission will be to take 10 good men and rob the Iron Bank dry to make Bran the richest king. We never get a sense of what the Iron Bank is going to do. They have a massive debt to collect and it's really unclear if Bran-king intends to honor it, though certainly Tyrion isn't stupid enough to cross the Iron Bank I guess. But if they do intend to repay the debt... how? The 6 (5 depending who you ask) Kingdoms have what to offer? The major gold mines have run dry and the massive center of economic prosperity has been leveled. What exactly are the kingdoms producing other than Dornish wine, which is probably not even well liked in Essos. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21674 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:01 Logo wrote: Didn't Cersei pay off the Crowns debt to the Iron Bank with the spoils from the sacking of Highgarden?We never get a sense of what the Iron Bank is going to do. They have a massive debt to collect and it's really unclear if Bran-king intends to honor it, though certainly Tyrion isn't stupid enough to cross the Iron Bank I guess. But if they do intend to repay the debt... how? The 6 (5 depending who you ask) Kingdoms have what to offer? The major gold mines have run dry and the massive center of economic prosperity has been leveled. What exactly are the kingdoms producing other than Dornish wine, which is probably not even well liked in Essos. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:04 Gorsameth wrote: Didn't Cersei pay off the Crowns debt to the Iron Bank with the spoils from the sacking of Highgarden? I thought she paid off a small part of it in return for the Iron Bank backing her and giving her an additional loan so she could write a contract with the Golden Company? (never forget the wise and calculated Iron Bank backed the side *without* three dragons) | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:12 karazax wrote: It's hard to say that the debt would even transfer considering this is a completely new government and the debt was Cersei's who was directly opposing them. But I don't think the show writers want anyone to think about any of this. The Iron Bank always gets it's money though. They make that very clear. If the current government won't do it... then somehow a new government shows up. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On May 21 2019 00:26 Logo wrote: Yes, you follow the lady who can survive engulfing flames and who has the most magnificent "horse" you've ever seen. She kills the khals, says she's khal, and has a Dragon to enforce that she is the khal. Why wouldn't they follow that sort of power? Jon has what? he's going to 1v1 all the other potential khals? But how would they know he killed her in a cowardly way? Considering her immensely powerful and loyal guardian, Drogon, didn't burn him alive despite literally always being right beside her it seems reasonable there were now foul play for the outsider. Since it didn't kill him either it would also appear it acknowledge him as well as a legitimate victor and worthy of it's respect as well. Defeated their leader, acknowledged by the god-like beast. Jon finally telling a small lie for peace unlike the honesty that lead to thousands of deaths before would make for a fitting end for his story and progression as a character, he ends up throwing away his loyalty by killing Dany and honesty by telling a lie to "protect the realms of men" as he has sworn in season 1. If he is challenged by the other potential khals I dont find it far fetched he'd take up the sword against them to solidify his position as it would mean there's finally peace, with his unbreakable plot armor he'd win anyway. A Dothraki horde let to it's own devices in Westeros would do Dothraki things as it's their way of life and considering how they loathe to sail why would they leave when the people of Westeros has already shown to them that they are inferior warriors. There's a certain level of irony in Jon being heir of the Iron Throne hailed as King of the North being "forced" to govern as king in another country to ensure peace instead. On May 21 2019 00:19 Rasalased wrote: Just because we have spend a lot of time with him doesn't mean we know a lot about him. So you think that 'Bran is Bran', wtf does that mean? And we just have to accept what is told by the writers? We are talking about if the writing is good or not. How can you say "we just have to accept what the writers come up with" as a justification for what the writers came up with? That's completely circular reasoning. I also don't understand what you mean when you say that 'I am grasping at straws'. Not sure if you are using that phrase correctly. How does it matter if Jon is Khal if he already is both king in the North and heir to the Iron Throne? Letting the horde choose a Khal from their own ranks would surely make them revert to their old lifestyle of pillage, rape and murder? There's no reason for them to leave Westeros on their own they already know/think they are superior fighters after they made short work of the heavily guarded caravan in an earlier episode if I remember correctly Jamie started fearing them after watching them at "work" as well. I dunno. The idea that the warmongering Dothraki just suddenly decide to live in peace and harmony for no apparant reason is uuuuurgh levels of silly and IMO even more silly than fiercely loyal The Unsullied following a council they have no reasons to acknowledge as authority. It's an entire way of life, tradition and identity of the Dothraki they just throw away because reasons? I can sort of accept everything else. Playing out all the political intrigues for choosing the next king would take multiples episodes on it's own to be believable Tyrion doing it one scene is for me at this point "yeah, whatever". But the second main character basically have no change over the entire show is just, his character doesn't change and he ends the same place as his journey begun.... Literally no progression in 10 years. Writers really? Beyond lazy. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:14 Logo wrote: The Iron Bank always gets it's money though. They make that very clear. If the current government won't do it... then somehow a new government shows up. So regardless of which side wins they get their money? Then there would have been no risk at all, instead of incredible risk for backing the losing side. But like I said, I don't think the show writers have put any thought into this at all. | ||
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Rasalased
89 Posts
People keep talking about archs and about progression. Some good character do not progress. How is it lazy that Jon is what he is? People really need to learn how to differentiate between what they personally don't like, and what is objectively badly written. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13926 Posts
I want to talk about how D&D decided to have Sansa be raped instead of giving Littelfinger his intended storyline but that would be hard without saying what that storyline is. | ||
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