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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
I don't think d&d didn't have it in them to finish GoT properly. They just didn't care and wanted to rush it.
But it is funny that they got the job because of R+L=J, because the only reason why R+L=J mattered is in Daenerys going mad queen. If Jon was Ned's bastard, nothing about the story would have to be changed. Absolutely nothing.
On May 20 2019 23:44 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 23:41 Logo wrote:Also the show runners forgot the Iron Islands are an independent kingdom From wiki:
After reaching Meereen, Yara and Theon forge an alliance with Daenerys and her advisor Tyrion Lannister. Yara offers to provide a hundred ships if Dany helps them to defeat Euron and recognizes the independence of the Iron Islands. Dany accepts their offer but demands that the Ironborn cease raiding and terrorizing the mainland. Yara reluctantly accepts Dany's terms
Im not sure they really cared about any of the politics anyway. The whole choosing Bran as king scene makes very little sense from the perspective of any of the participants except maybe sansa and arya.
I think them voting on Bran to be king came directly from GRRM. It makes no sense, because Sansa should be the only one who wants a Stark as king in KL but she voted against by seceding. And Arya has no vote.
BTW, I don't think the showrunners forgot because as you said, Yara 'bend the knee' to Daenerys. So if you invite the lords of Westeros, of course she is there. Yara is actually the most logical person to be there because she is actually in charge of something and supporting Daenerys.
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On May 20 2019 22:42 PhoenixVoid wrote:
The most memorable and acclaimed shows weren't made memorable because of their flashy visual effects and explosions, but because of a good script and a plot that made sense backed with thematic heft, aka good writing. Think of Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, and The Wire. They may not have been as popular or spawned as much merchandising, but I think those are the kinds of shows that will be remembered more fondly than GoT ever could. GoT burned a lot of goodwill in the past few seasons, and I fear people will recall it not very nicely in the next decade when we're all reminiscing about the great shows.
All of the shows you mention focused heavily on characters and their relationships. This focus also made the early GoT seasons great, because viewers could easily relate to the people on screen. GoT turned to shit when plot took over. You just can't tell a compelling story without having consistent characters.
Some examples:
Tyrion got dumber every episode, maybe due to his alcoholism.
Jon's plot armor thickened with every heroic thing he did.
Dany became super Hitler before 1929.
Arya became no one to do all the things other people could have done better. (Except Walder Frey. That was a great scene imho.)
And that's why Theon's arc was well done: He went through hell and back for a purpose within his own character. (Redemption.) I also liked Sansa's story, even though they went a bit too far with the whole humiliation thing.
Basically, GoT's biggest flaw has been to abandon its characters for the sake of plot advancement. Blaming it on D&D is easy, but GRRM also should never have agreed to a full series before the completion of the books. Money is neat, I guess.
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Probably couldnt pick a worse ending even if they tried and they wasted 2 years for this?? How D&D would even have jobs after this travesty is out of my mind.
Would make more sense if Bran was an evil mastermind orchestrating everything behind the scenes with warging and shit instead of this, what was the point of his 3 eyed raven story anyways in the end just was a plot device to wrap up the the NK arc.
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I have to admit the whole "stories are the most powerful thing" justification for Bran being king was like some literature or journalism major giving a spiel about why their degree was so important lol. Maybe even a wink at the viewer? I mean the whole epilogue was just a bit too tongue in cheek.
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On May 20 2019 23:48 SkelA wrote:
Would make more sense if Bran was an evil mastermind orchestrating everything behind the scenes with warging and shit instead of this, what was the point of his 3 eyed raven story anyways in the end just was a plot device to wrap up the the NK arc.
He literally was. He time traveled to learn about Jon's parents. He tricked Jon into telling Daenerys that she has no claim on the Iron Throne. He foresaw Daeenerys burning down King's Landing as a result of hm telling Jon. And he knew everyone would ask him to be king afterwards. He literally said he wouldn't even have bothered to come to King's Landing if he hadn't already known that he was going to be voted to be king.
Bran saw all these futures. And he liked this one the most and it only required him to be bait for the night king, tell Jon about R=L=J, his off-screen talk with Tyrion to plant the seed of Tyrion asking him to be king, and him going to King's Landing so he would be there when Tyrion decides to vote on a king.
It is not even an interpretation. This is literally what the writers are telling us.
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That's really inconsistent with him immediately saying, "And I don't want to be King" to Tyrion as well as his many previous statements that he doesn't "want" anymore.
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On May 20 2019 22:36 Rasalased wrote:
Well, GoT did have good original writing in the earlier seasons. So d&d ought to have been capable of writing a good ending to GoT. Maybe they needed more help. Surely they needed more time/episodes. But probably they stopped caring. And maybe thinking you created the greatest tv show in history with your writing goes to you head?
I think they did a good job when they were straight adapting scenes from the book, but I was never a big fan of their original content. There were a few good scenes, but a lot of them were forced in and then they go back to the book plot points as if the changes they made never happened.
The past few seasons all they had from GRRM was plot points and their primary objective is forcing their way to them regardless of whether the set up makes any sense.
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On May 21 2019 00:04 Logo wrote:
That's really inconsistent with him immediately saying, "And I don't want to be King" to Tyrion as well as his many previous statements that he doesn't "want" anymore. Its easy to say you don't want something when you know saying it will get you that thing because your omniscient.
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I am ok with the ending. Has issues and the 4 extra episodes(or 7 if season 7 added more episodes) could've definitely probably helped.
Overall i'm ok. I've seen worse endings and it had alot of subversions and the send-offs are ok.
I also have no issues if a series didn't follow my fanfiction of how it should turn out.
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On May 20 2019 13:40 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 13:34 Sermokala wrote:
Yes out of all the canidates they went with the worst possible one. The guy who doesn't follow the local religion Doesn't belong to a local house and won't have a succession plan.
It's like the allies after WW1 decided to create on purpose WW2.
I'm not angry with the ending surprisingly. I'm so frustrated and confused I don't know how to feel. They ever consider how allowing the North to secede just like that would set a bad precedent for the Iron Isles and Dorne that only creates more strife? Oh wait, D&D don't bother with the politics. The iron islands backed danny with the premise that they would go free, dannys coalition then wins the war...a separate country secedes peacefully while installing its kin on the throne, and they remain part of the kingdoms? God this writing is so weak...
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Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... 
Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home.
On May 20 2019 23:05 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2019 23:01 KwarK wrote:
Dany + Drogon fly away without telling anyone where they went the way they always do.
Jon: I told her I wanted to break up and she took it badly and burned a bunch of stuff then said "I need to go think about some stuff" and flew away. She said I was in charge while she was gone.
*fin* I thought about doing it that way. Drogon and Daenery just suddenly being gone and no one knowing what happened, except for Jon. But of course Jon is Jon so he would turn himself in and admit to what he did. If they had Drogon fly away and they obscured Daenerys in his claws, they would have needed a scene of Jon telling Grey Worm what happened. So we would have this scene of Jon saying "Well she just left and now I am king." and then Grey Worm, "OK, yes my king!" That wouldn't have been a believable scene either.
After Drogon peaced it with her corpse I thought he would have reflected on how the last time he didn't tell a lie it led to thousands and thousands of innocent lives lost. Without their leader the Dothraki would do Dothraki things, The Unsullied would keep following her last order to kill all her "enemies". With him pulling rank on basically everyone and having all of Westeros backing (being their champion against evil and all) a simple lie would have put them in check.
The Unsullied and Dothraki following what a council of royalty they have absolutely no ties to was just laughable silly.
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On May 21 2019 00:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:04 Logo wrote:
That's really inconsistent with him immediately saying, "And I don't want to be King" to Tyrion as well as his many previous statements that he doesn't "want" anymore. Its easy to say you don't want something when you know saying it will get you that thing because your omniscient.
Unreliable narrators should generally be revealed to be unreliable to the viewer before the end of the series or it's indistinguishable with inconsistent & sloppy writing.
There's no motivation for him to say he doesn't want to be king after... being king, unless he means it. So the timing doesn't even work.
The show even builds up that a ruler who doesn't want to rule (not you Robert Baratheon) would make a good ruler, so the other parts of the narrative back Bran's words.
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On May 21 2019 00:04 Logo wrote:
That's really inconsistent with him immediately saying, "And I don't want to be King" to Tyrion as well as his many previous statements that he doesn't "want" anymore.
How is it inconsistent? He saw the future and picked the one where he is king. Him saying "I don't want to be king" means a lot less than the actual way it ends. And besides picking this future, he could still say "no" and he wouldn't be king. Why did he say it? It could be the writers playing with our expectations. It could be that he literally doesn't want to be king, but this future is the best one he saw so he still picked it because that is genuinely how he felt. It would be odd for him to answer that question on a meta-level "Regardless of if I want to be king, I have to be anyway because I already saw the future." Or he said it because saying he doesn't want to be king is exactly why Tyrion asked him. Tyrion even said so himself. Narrative-wise, that makes the most sense.
We know nothing about Bran and what kind of person he is. It is all pretty absurd. So this show is Game of Thrones and Bran won but we never knew anything about what drives him or what he wants. And even after the show ended we still don't know if he was actually playing the game of thrones or not.
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On May 21 2019 00:13 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:04 Logo wrote:
That's really inconsistent with him immediately saying, "And I don't want to be King" to Tyrion as well as his many previous statements that he doesn't "want" anymore. How is it inconsistent? He saw the future and picked the one where he is king. Him saying "I don't want to be king" means a lot less than the actual way it ends. And besides picking this future, he could still say "no" and he wouldn't be king. Why did he say it? It could be the writers playing with our expectations. It could be that he literally doesn't want to be king, but this future is the best one he saw so he still picked it. Or he said it because saying he doesn't want to be king is exactly why Tyrion asked him. Tyrion even said so himself. Narrative-wise, that makes the most sense. We know nothing about Bran and what kind of person he is. It is all pretty absurd. So this show is Game of Thrones and Bran won but we never knew anything about what drives him or what he wants. And even after the show ended we still don't know if he was actually playing the game of thrones or not.
Why say it after he's already king?
Why make a big deal about a king who doesn't want to be king would be a good king (see Tyrion and Varys)?
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We know nothing of bran? We spent seasons with him, an entire show with his family. In so far as bran is bran, of course we know him. To the degree that he isnt, we just have to accept what is told to us by him and by the writers and by the damn acting; he became an unemotional robot. And it does, to some extent, fit with the logic of who he is. I have a hard time believing someone would be concerned by the present if they could live at any point in the past or inhabit birds to fly, whatever.
Anyway, your grasping at straws Rasalased.
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On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home.
You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes.
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We know nothing of bran? We spent seasons with him, an entire show with his family. In so far as bran is bran, of course we know him. To the degree that he isnt, we just have to accept what is told to us by him and by the writers and by the damn acting; he became an unemotional robot. And it does, to some extent, fit with the logic of who he is. I have a hard time believing someone would be concerned by the present if they could live at any point in the past or inhabit birds to fly, whatever.
Anyway, your grasping at straws Rasalased.
Just because we have spend a lot of time with him doesn't mean we know a lot about him. So you think that 'Bran is Bran', wtf does that mean? And we just have to accept what is told by the writers? We are talking about if the writing is good or not. How can you say "we just have to accept what the writers come up with" as a justification for what the writers came up with? That's completely circular reasoning.
I also don't understand what you mean when you say that 'I am grasping at straws'. Not sure if you are using that phrase correctly.
On May 21 2019 00:17 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home. You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes.
How does it matter if Jon is Khal if he already is both king in the North and heir to the Iron Throne? And to me, the story where Jon really tries to be king even though he knows he can't and will fail also would not make sense. If they suddenly decided "Yes, let's have Dany go evil, Jon kill her, and then Jon becomes king." would feel silly because the story has been telling us for 8 seasons that Jon doesn't have it in him to be king. And there has been no sign at all that anything changed. And his "But you're my queen."-phrase literally enforces that. I don't think most of the audience realize that Jon is this 85 IQ point person that also died and lost some of his soul in the process. He clearly was always overwhelmed with being a leader, despite people being drawn to him. And after he returned from the dead, he lost the natural ability humans have to fill their lives with desires so not to have empty lives.
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On May 21 2019 00:17 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home. You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes.
Dany was Khal when she killed Drogo then, but that didn't mean she had a Khalasaar to follow her around everyone but a few (and the women and children) fled. They'd never follow someone who killed Dany let alone in a cowardly (to them) way.
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On May 21 2019 00:19 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:17 Dav1oN wrote:On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home. You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes. Dany was Khal when she killed Drogo then, but that didn't mean she had a Khalasaar to follow her around everyone but a few (and the women and children) fled. They'd never follow someone who killed Dany let alone in a cowardly (to them) way.
Right, so they would follow someone who burn their leaders alive? Which is brave in comparison! :D
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On May 21 2019 00:23 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:19 Logo wrote:On May 21 2019 00:17 Dav1oN wrote:On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode.... Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home. You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes. Dany was Khal when she killed Drogo then, but that didn't mean she had a Khalasaar to follow her around everyone but a few (and the women and children) fled. They'd never follow someone who killed Dany let alone in a cowardly (to them) way. Right, so they would follow someone who burn their leaders alive? Which is brave in comparison! :D
Yes, you follow the lady who can survive engulfing flames and who has the most magnificent "horse" you've ever seen. She kills the khals, says she's khal, and has a Dragon to enforce that she is the khal. Why wouldn't they follow that sort of power?
Jon has what? he's going to 1v1 all the other potential khals?
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EPT
