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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
If you want to believe that Bran's (the 3ER's) ultimate goal was always to become king then i'd ask how that manifests itself into any kind of foreshadowing or setup?
Then why did he talk to Sam and tell him to tell Jon about his parents? Why did he tell Sansa that Jon had a secret? Why did he come to King's Landing?
Well firstly it depends on how we look at bran's powers and what they mean. Either we think it simply means determinism where noone can really choose to do anything and time/everything already played out. There is no agency left for anyone at that point.
If we don't, then it's first arguable if he even knows everything perfectly, the honest answer is that he is a plot device to make people know these things, in universe there is no real reason.
On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It happening and them telling us that he basically knows everything is kinda weak, isn't it?
Of course it is weak. But this is literally what the characters are telling each other on the show. I am not making this up. I always think in these debates that others remember exaclty like I do everything that was said. But maybe I need to slowly start to realize that others do not. So from the subtitle file. But I ask you now, if we choose you will you wear the crown? Will you lead the Seven Kingdoms to the best of your abilities from this day until your last day? Why do you think I came all this way? To Brandon of House Stark I say aye source: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=game-of-thrones&episode=s08e06
Yes but it doesn't setup that bran was scheming to get to power. It might imply he knew he would get it, if he truly knows everything. We don't know if that is indeed true or not. Bran isn't developed, he is used as a plot device.
There is also no payoff if it was indeed their plan, there is no WTF moment there, no twist ending. Nothing.
On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As Logo already said, the setup is the complete opposite, he says he doesn't want it, he doesn't want anything. They tell us the best kings are the ones who don't have any desire to be king. It's right there.
Well yes, if anything the story tells us that the best kings are those who don't want to have power. But at the same time, we have this character about which we don't really know if he is still a person that has seen both the past and possible futures and can time travel that has been 'manipulating' events based on the futures he has already seen. We know as an audience that he knew the Night King was going to be killed by Arya using the Cat'spaw dagger at that Weirwood tree.
There is a difference between setup and payoff and people trying to rationalize things together. It could have been a nice payoff if the show actually went for it, but it didn't. We got the opposite in fact, everything seem to be just fine, no hint at bran planning it all along, nothing.
On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is "grasping at straws" insofar that people try to add complexity to something which isn't there, probably because what we got is kinda disappointing. 'Grasping at straws' means that you are trying to be positive in a desperate situation. In this context, it should refer to finding any 'straw' to defend the show as being positive. Explaining things you apparently missed that show the last episode was a train wreak on more levels that you realize is not 'grasping at straws'.
But that is what you are doing? You try to find deeper meaning to this ending, that bran was the chessplayer all along and everything we saw was his plan to get to power. That's a positive interpretation of the things which happened, without the show actually trying to get you to that conclusion, where is the payoff? All we get are some funny council meetings where bran says he is searching for the dragon. Don't you think there would be some ending scene where something like this is implied, to get a "holy shit" moment? That would be effective storytelling, if it indeed was going on.
So yeah, you are indeed "grasping at straws" here. The theory would work if there was added content, right now this added content only exists in your head.
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On May 21 2019 00:19 Rasalased wrote:Show nested quote +
We know nothing of bran? We spent seasons with him, an entire show with his family. In so far as bran is bran, of course we know him. To the degree that he isnt, we just have to accept what is told to us by him and by the writers and by the damn acting; he became an unemotional robot. And it does, to some extent, fit with the logic of who he is. I have a hard time believing someone would be concerned by the present if they could live at any point in the past or inhabit birds to fly, whatever.
Anyway, your grasping at straws Rasalased.
Just because we have spend a lot of time with him doesn't mean we know a lot about him. So you think that 'Bran is Bran', wtf does that mean? And we just have to accept what is told by the writers? We are talking about if the writing is good or not. How can you say "we just have to accept what the writers come up with" as a justification for what the writers came up with? That's completely circular reasoning. I also don't understand what you mean when you say that 'I am grasping at straws'. Not sure if you are using that phrase correctly. Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:17 Dav1oN wrote:On May 21 2019 00:12 Jek wrote:Aside from Drogon burning down the throne I cannot kind really think of a more anti-climatic last episode....  Isn't Jon technically the Khal now he has killed Daenery? Would have been an interesting spin if he left Westeros to guarentee peace by taking the horde home. You crafted a much better ending in what, two minutes? Following the logic, he is Khal now, yes. How does it matter if Jon is Khal if he already is both king in the North and heir to the Iron Throne? And to me, the story where Jon really tries to be king even though he knows he can't and will fail also would not make sense. If they suddenly decided "Yes, let's have Dany go evil, Jon kill her, and then Jon becomes king." would feel silly because the story has been telling us for 8 seasons that Jon doesn't have it in him to be king. And there has been no sign at all that anything changed. And his "But you're my queen."-phrase literally enforces that. I don't think most of the audience realize that Jon is this 85 IQ point person that also died and lost some of his soul in the process. He clearly was always overwhelmed with being a leader, despite people being drawn to him. And after he returned from the dead, he lost the natural ability humans have to fill their lives with desires so not to have empty lives. What do you think i mean? It is apparent who he is because we know how he was raised, the values he began with, the events that shaped his life, we saw him make fucking choices for years. If knowing someone for years doesnt mean you know them then what the fuck are we even talking about? We were made to understand bran as the audience just as were made to understand every major character. The hijink is that he then became a robotic prophet like figure, but again, everything that was explicitly put in-- dialogue, musical score, actual acting, all went along exactly with what he was presenting himself to be: an unemotional robot who knew a bunch of shit in the past.
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On May 21 2019 01:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Well firstly it depends on how we look at bran's powers and what they mean. Either we think it simply means determinism where noone can really choose to do anything and time/everything already played out. There is no agency left for anyone at that point.
If we don't, then it's first arguable if he even knows everything perfectly, the honest answer is that he is a plot device to make people know these things, in universe there is no real reason.
You realize that you cannot have determinism, causality, and visions from the future at the same time, right?
This opens a huge can of worms and absurdities. This simply has to remain closed. There has to be a simple logical answer to this question, or you could have just as well not told a story in the first place.
Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It happening and them telling us that he basically knows everything is kinda weak, isn't it?
Of course it is weak. But this is literally what the characters are telling each other on the show. I am not making this up. I always think in these debates that others remember exaclty like I do everything that was said. But maybe I need to slowly start to realize that others do not. So from the subtitle file. But I ask you now, if we choose you will you wear the crown? Will you lead the Seven Kingdoms to the best of your abilities from this day until your last day? Why do you think I came all this way? To Brandon of House Stark I say aye source: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=game-of-thrones&episode=s08e06 Yes but it doesn't setup that bran was scheming to get to power. It might imply he knew he would get it, if he truly knows everything. We don't know if that is indeed true or not. Bran isn't developed, he is used as a plot device. There is also no payoff if it was indeed their plan, there is no WTF moment there, no twist ending. Nothing.
It is the last episode. You have a surprise king selection. And the only thing the writers tell us about this new king is that he already knew he was going to be king. Why would you him being evil or plotting or a secret mastermind in one of the last scenes of your last episode? You had all these empty plot threads about the 3ER, Bran, NK and the lord of light, and you deliberately refuse to answer them and move on from the story. And then you hint at Bran manipulating events to be king. So your interpretation is that the future is 100% determined and Bran seeing the future gives him zero power as knowing or not knowing the future won't make you do anything different?
Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As Logo already said, the setup is the complete opposite, he says he doesn't want it, he doesn't want anything. They tell us the best kings are the ones who don't have any desire to be king. It's right there.
Well yes, if anything the story tells us that the best kings are those who don't want to have power. But at the same time, we have this character about which we don't really know if he is still a person that has seen both the past and possible futures and can time travel that has been 'manipulating' events based on the futures he has already seen. We know as an audience that he knew the Night King was going to be killed by Arya using the Cat'spaw dagger at that Weirwood tree. There is a difference between setup and payoff and people trying to rationalize things together. It could have been a nice payoff if the show actually went for it, but it didn't. We got the opposite in fact, everything seem to be just fine, no hint at bran planning it all along, nothing.
I don't know what you even mean by this? Are you saying that we should realize that this scene was cinematic symbolism and has zero plot consequences? This is not how a story works. A scene has meaning. Bran either has a power or he has not. It doens't matter if the writers go out of their way to create a payoff. I mean, you aren't even saying this was a coincidence. Just that the writers did this but only used it as a payoff for one thing, and that we should completely ignore this 'setup' for everything else in the story that is not that specific payoff. You seem to propose that people should watch a tv series and be in a QM superposition about whether something happened or not depending on payoff.
Bran told them they should put him in the King's Wood during the battle for Winterfell. Why? His visions. If he hadn't said anything, he wouldn't have been there and the NK would have come from him somewhere else. But he clearly changed events based on his vision. And he clearly had a very accurate vision a very long time before the Winterfell battle. Yes, it could be that Bran had this single very specific vision of Arya killing the NK. But we know he had more visions, And now we have a a scene of him admitting that he knew why to come to KL.
And you say it doesn't matter because there was no payoff? What does that mean?
Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 00:42 Rasalased wrote:On May 21 2019 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It is "grasping at straws" insofar that people try to add complexity to something which isn't there, probably because what we got is kinda disappointing. 'Grasping at straws' means that you are trying to be positive in a desperate situation. In this context, it should refer to finding any 'straw' to defend the show as being positive. Explaining things you apparently missed that show the last episode was a train wreak on more levels that you realize is not 'grasping at straws'. But that is what you are doing? You try to find deeper meaning to this ending, that bran was the chessplayer all along and everything we saw was his plan to get to power. That's a positive interpretation of the things which happened, without the show actually trying to get you to that conclusion, where is the payoff? All we get are some funny council meetings where bran says he is searching for the dragon. Don't you think there would be some ending scene where something like this is implied, to get a "holy shit" moment? That would be effective storytelling, if it indeed was going on. So yeah, you are indeed "grasping at straws" here. The theory would work if there was added content, right now this added content only exists in your head.
Dude, it is not a theory. It is the writers bungling things. They tell us nothing about what Bran is really doing and what his effect on the story is. Ever since Bran returned to Winterfell and drops creepy hints that he 'knows stuff', we don't see anyone talk to him. Everyone is straight out ignoring Bran. Until Tyrion talks to him off camera. And then the NK dies exactly as Bran foresaw it would happen. Then Bran betrays Ned and Jon by telling Sansa that Jon is a Targaryan (because that is what 'it is your choice' means), which directly causes one of the visions we know he already had.
And then he magically becomes king, I guess literally through magic, and the writers drop even more odd hints. Him suddenly saying he is going to find Drogon is just one other example that you bring up. What does that mean?
It gives rise to all these crazy theories that the 3ER used the Night King to posses Bran and to become King. I mean, if the story tells us that Bran is no longer Bran and we see no sigh of Bran being an actual person, why isn't the 3ER or the Night King controlling Bran's body? Why do you add scenes to your last episode to fuel all these crazy theories while in all other scenes you are trying to bring closure? I am literally saying it isn't a theory, that it shouldn't, be and that these scenes shouldn't be there.
On May 21 2019 01:53 Dazed. wrote:
What do you think i mean? It is apparent who he is because we know how he was raised, the values he began with, the events that shaped his life, we saw him make fucking choices for years. If knowing someone for years doesnt mean you know them then what the fuck are we even talking about? We were made to understand bran as the audience just as were made to understand every major character. The hijink is that he then became a robotic prophet like figure, but again, everything that was explicitly put in-- dialogue, musical score, actual acting, all went along exactly with what he was presenting himself to be: an unemotional robot who knew a bunch of shit in the past.
I literally don't know if the person that is in Bran's body has anything to do with Bran. And whoever is in there, it only tried to give off a creepy vibe. Yes, it helped kill the Night King, so everyone around him have to assume he is benevolent. But the audience knows more. Maybe you should rewatch the Sansa and Bran reunion scene. Sansa is all happy to see her little brother again and relived that there is now a lord of Winterfell. And all Bran has to say is that he has to speak with Jon and that he cannot be a lord of anything because he is the 3ER (a phrase which he knows doesn't mean anything to her). And the writers have Sansa say: "I don't know what that means." and then Bran basically tells Sansa "I was watching when Ramsey raped you." with Sansa looking super-disturbed and then immediately leaving while Bran actually asks her to stay a bit longer. Sansa basically rejects Bran as a brother for being a creep.
So Bran doesn't know what other people know or how they perceive him. But he has something important to tell to Jon. Namely R+L=J. And the only thing R+L=J did in the story is drive Jon and Daenerys apart and cause Daenerys to burn KL.
And they vote him to be king based on Tyrion's chat with him, and then drop even more hints that something is very wrong with Bran.
This is literally what the story is. Not anything more, but also not anything less.
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It is the last episode. You have a surprise king selection. And the only thing the writers tell us about this new king is that he already knew he was going to be king. Why would you him being evil or plotting or a secret mastermind in one of the last scenes of your last episode? You had all these empty plot threads about the 3ER, Bran, NK and the lord of light, and you deliberately refuse to answer them and move on from the story. And then you hint at Bran manipulating events to be king. So your interpretation is that the future is 100% determined and Bran seeing the future gives him zero power as knowing or not knowing the future won't make you do anything different?
It's not the only thing. They also tell us the king doesn't want to be king.
Spoilers for The Usual Suspects
+ Show Spoiler +
This Interpretation of the show would be the same as watching the Usual Suspects, having Verbal Kint finish his story, then having the officers release Verbal Kint, and... ending the movie. You can't just intend such a big plot point and reveal and not actually show it.
That's why we get the officer noticing the origins of the names being used and the final scene reveal so we can actually revel in the twist.
Even if the show wanted to leave it ambiguous, it would still need to do so by inclusion, not omission. They would need to give a strong ambiguous scene to leave us guessing. Not a scene where we have to believe one thing Bran says and think he's lying about the 2nd thing he says even though neither thing has a clear motive to be a lie.
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That was fucking stupid and full of stupid irrelevant callbacks and none of the characters' endings made any fucking sense at all.
It was so stupid.
Sorry I haven't got anything better to add to the conversation but this is all I can think of.
What a waste of potential this show turned out to be.
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On May 21 2019 02:20 Jockmcplop wrote:
That was fucking stupid and full of stupid irrelevant callbacks and none of the characters' endings made any fucking sense at all.
It was so stupid.
Sorry I haven't got anything better to add to the conversation but this is all I can think of.
What a waste of potential this show turned out to be.
Nah, it's okay, I had the same feelings just after the episode was online.
Do you see these wall of symbols above and how rapidly new comments are posting?
That's how invested we were in that series, how frustrated we are now - trying to explain plotholes and inconsistencies.
Literally a signs of mass frustration here in these topic.
I also understand that someone liked it (an okay acting, sometimes, great music and filming), but it's hard to argue drop in a quality of writing in comparison to early seasons.
The worst thing is that we have to live either with thoughts "oh it could've been much better" or we had to stop caring about the show, which neglects 9 years of watching for any person who followed.
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The worst thing is I felt nothing.
I watched the whole feature length final episode of a show that had some of the most gut wrenching, heartbreaking moments I've ever seen on TV - and I felt absolutely nothing but a small tinge of predictable disappointment that this is all we're getting.
I'm not angry at D&D. I think it was a cursed project - as are the books. Cursed by its own nature.
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I can very much relate. I felt more or less nothing. It had some great shots, it had great music as always and Tyrion dialogues for me are on point but due to being so predictable nothing really did it for me. I didn't think it was TERRIBLE but it fell short for its potential.
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Agreed
Emptiness inside is that left for me and it's almost physical for some reason...It was never felt like a proper ending for such of a great show.
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Loved the show for 7 seasons and hated it for 1.
Hate is probably too strong a word but.. Daenarys dying like that just made me go "oh come on" that was just so lame for her to go out like that. It was obvious John would kill her but.. I think I expected too much for GoT S8.
Also they made Brann fucking king?!.........
Nah Im sorry this was a trash ending.
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On May 20 2019 22:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am not even sure which ending sucked more, lost's or GoT's :/
I recall Lost's ending was very nice. Emotionally satisfying for me, but I have not seen that show again, only remember the impression it gave me years back. I don't wanna see it again cause I'm afraid it's shit >D
And I get dany got mad, but portraying her like she was stalin or that ruler from "v for vendetta" was way over the top imo, it simpy wasn't needed. Were they afraid of dany-fans ?
This whole escalation was rushed so hard, fast-forwarded as fast as they could cause even the screenwriters seemed sick of this show.
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Ending is what it is, didnt like the jump from killing Dany to joke council meeting in the dragon pits.
I guess now Jon creates his own Kingdom of Snow in the now massive and threat free true North with the Wildlings.
They should have killed Dany in the battle of Winterfell and forced Kingship upon Jon as the only person who can control the dragons and stop Cersei, Reagar (Dragon) wouldn't have died then as they would have been travelling the kings road instead of the pointless trip to dragonstone.
Jon could have then made the nights watch code the kings code, shield that guards the realms of men, take no wife have no children blah blah and set up the elected king a bit better.
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Somebody should tell Daario that Dany is dead tbh, poor guy must be still waiting
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On May 21 2019 03:52 Faruko wrote:
Somebody should tell Daario that Dany is dead tbh, poor guy must be still waiting
I'm still waiting for someone to remind Yara she rules an independent kingdom that holds free elections.
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United States42673 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:14 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2019 01:12 karazax wrote:
It's hard to say that the debt would even transfer considering this is a completely new government and the debt was Cersei's who was directly opposing them. But I don't think the show writers want anyone to think about any of this. The Iron Bank always gets it's money though. They make that very clear. If the current government won't do it... then somehow a new government shows up.
They said it but we didn't see it. Robert owed them cash. Tywin repudiated that debt. Then they loaned more cash to Stannis which didn't help them at all. Then they loaned more money to Cersei in exchange for her unrepudiating the debt which didn't help them at all. At a certain point they're just sending good money after bad. They need to write it off.
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United States42673 Posts
On May 21 2019 01:41 Sermokala wrote:
Can we talk about the differences in the story from the books to the tv show now that the show is over and there is nothing to spoil?
I want to talk about how D&D decided to have Sansa be raped instead of giving Littelfinger his intended storyline but that would be hard without saying what that storyline is.
I'll ask.
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+ Show Spoiler +Also is anyone going to point out that Jon Snow is essentially Napoleon? There is no Wall, nor a Night's Watch? As there are no Wildling's they are in Winterfell, and the Wall is destroyed?
How many Letter's did Varys(sp?) send out before being killed?
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Yo guys,
I'm fucking done, what a disappointment, LOL.
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United States42673 Posts
Their plan for Jon to swear off wives and kids and be the last Targaryen forgets that Jon's oaths count for nothing when he sees a redhead. He'll have a brood of little gingers within the year. That is unless Tormund tells everyone that he's an auntfucker.
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On May 21 2019 04:23 739 wrote:
Yo guys,
I'm fucking done, what a disappointment, LOL.
Welcome to the club
@StealthBlue no one knows, and no ones even knows why those scenes were portrayed in first place
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EPT
