EPTCatelyn got Robb killed, Sansa seems to be trying to one-up her.
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KwarK
United States41987 Posts
Catelyn got Robb killed, Sansa seems to be trying to one-up her. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On May 25 2016 03:27 KwarK wrote: Sansa a great leader? She is a shitty leader who thinks of nothing but her emotions, p much like her mother. They're all sitting around going "we don't have enough men, Ramsay is going to kill Jon and all the wildlings and all their families and then gang rape Sansa unless we can get more men" and she decides that her pride is worth them all dying for. Catelyn got Robb killed, Sansa seems to be trying to one-up her. Great leader is probably exagerated, but point is she seems willing to take things in charge and to be a leader, while her whole character before has been all about obeying or being forced to obey without showing any intent of leading. I guess that can still turn out well if she indeed leads her little army into defeat, but I doubt that's what will happen. Most likely she'll retake Winterfell, then will somehow end up as ally and occasional lover/wife of Littlefinger while Jon will be edged out. | ||
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KwarK
United States41987 Posts
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KOFgokuon
United States14892 Posts
On May 25 2016 03:27 KwarK wrote: Sansa a great leader? She is a shitty leader who thinks of nothing but her emotions, p much like her mother. They're all sitting around going "we don't have enough men, Ramsay is going to kill Jon and all the wildlings and all their families and then gang rape Sansa unless we can get more men" and she decides that her pride is worth them all dying for. Catelyn got Robb killed, Sansa seems to be trying to one-up her. I don't necessarily agree, I think a big part of it is that she still feels that she got used and screwed over by LF, jon Davos and the others have not had to deal with him in the past and don't know the depths to which he manipulates situations and people. I think she still fully trusts jon and all but she doesn't believe they can handle LF at all, and she's probably right | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 25 2016 03:38 KwarK wrote: It's just frustrating because even if Jon wins far more people will die than need to and she seems perfectly willing to throw all their lives away. In Brienne's position I'd sit her down and explain that being morally right doesn't count for shit, that Ned was morally right and that he still ended up on a pike and that unless she wants that for Jon she needs to unbunch her panties and take the army of the Vale. I dont get what your problem is with Sansa trying to fight Ramsay. What else is she supposed to do? Give herself to him and hope that he will leave her brother be then? Hide at Castle Black and meekly wait for his armies to come? Or maybe I am misunderstanding something here. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4586 Posts
On May 24 2016 22:26 Naphal wrote: the thing for me is: GoT gave of the vibe of "history fiction fantasy" + Show Spoiler + so many characters, plots and everyone playing the game of thrones, while a zombie army in the north (now known as a weapon gone rogue) seek to battle with dragons and or the red god (who gives of quite demonic vibes) while the little humans mostly still have to realize the insignificance of their power struggles and search for a way to survive. now enter time-warging! no matter how it exactly works (nonlinear time / predestined stuff) we now have a tool that makes all the excessive history fiction part useless, why have a billion characters? it is known what will happen, and if the author messes up, he can introduce a beforehand hidden armory of valyrian steel weapons, or have a giant dragon sleeping below the wall, waiting for the white walkers to destroy them... if you dont plan on massively tying time- and planetravel into your story, you should best avoid it entirely. edit: and since this skill was introduced as an accident and not by accident, i fear it will get used more. Errr... timetraveling warging is not what happened per se, he could have always been predestined to hold the door, which, through the nature of the universe and mechanisms unknown, trickled back to the past to influence him heavily. So there are multiple options in which Hodor became the way he was/is. I'm leaning more towards the entirely deterministic nature of the entire GoT universe (one in which time traveling warging could still be a possibility, but where Hodor wasn't necessarily influenced by, we'll have to wait and see, wow I'm careful here) where literally every outcome of every big event has already been sealed. Individuals won't be able to change these events, only Gods could. | ||
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KwarK
United States41987 Posts
On May 25 2016 03:44 Redox wrote: I dont get what your problem is with Sansa trying to fight Ramsay. What else is she supposed to do? Give herself to him and hope that he will leave her brother be then? Hide at Castle Black and meekly wait for his armies to come? Or maybe I am misunderstanding something here. So everyone is sitting around talking about how they don't have enough men and they're all going to die horribly unless they can get one of the big northern houses to turn on the Boltons or all of the smaller northern houses to turn on the Boltons. And Sansa has the untouched army of one of the only kingdoms not devastated by the war camped right on the southern border of the north awaiting her order to march. And she's watching Jon about to lead a bunch of refugees to their deaths to try and save her from Ramsay and she isn't saying shit. Sure, Littlefinger is dangerous, I get that. But Jon is about to march outnumbered 2:1 into the army that just annihilated Stannis without breaking a sweat to try and save you and even if you don't care about Jon's life, once he dies you're back to being raped. At least bring up the fact that you have an insta-win army in your back pocket, even if you need to add that Littlefinger can't be trusted. Hell, maybe Jon and Davos could leverage the fact that they have the army of the Vale to get some of the big houses to turn, winning the north without even needing to directly use the Vale army. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22711 Posts
On May 25 2016 04:01 KwarK wrote: So everyone is sitting around talking about how they don't have enough men and they're all going to die horribly unless they can get one of the big northern houses to turn on the Boltons or all of the smaller northern houses to turn on the Boltons. And Sansa has the untouched army of one of the only kingdoms not devastated by the war camped right on the southern border of the north awaiting her order to march. And she's watching Jon about to lead a bunch of refugees to their deaths to try and save her from Ramsay and she isn't saying shit. Sure, Littlefinger is dangerous, I get that. But Jon is about to march outnumbered 2:1 into the army that just annihilated Stannis without breaking a sweat to try and save you and even if you don't care about Jon's life, once he dies you're back to being raped. At least bring up the fact that you have an insta-win army in your back pocket, even if you need to add that Littlefinger can't be trusted. Hell, maybe Jon and Davos could leverage the fact that they have the army of the Vale to get some of the big houses to turn, winning the north without even needing to directly use the Vale army. My guess would be that she knows LF has ulterior motives that she doesn't yet understand, refusing their help till she does is the only rational choice (presumably him lending the army benefits him [the same person who she's reasonably sure knowingly sent her to get raped and tortured for his personal benefit]). There are only three ways to get people to act against their interest, power (she's got little to none of that), manipulation (her and John again are not good figures for this to work), and honor (this she still carries as a surname) what better way to rally people using honor than saving an innocent child from a well known maniac while also placing a rightful error in the North and removing a mad man from power? From my personal perspective of reasons to do things, she doesn't have the best case, but for that world it seems as good as any. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 25 2016 04:01 KwarK wrote: So everyone is sitting around talking about how they don't have enough men and they're all going to die horribly unless they can get one of the big northern houses to turn on the Boltons or all of the smaller northern houses to turn on the Boltons. And Sansa has the untouched army of one of the only kingdoms not devastated by the war camped right on the southern border of the north awaiting her order to march. And she's watching Jon about to lead a bunch of refugees to their deaths to try and save her from Ramsay and she isn't saying shit. Sure, Littlefinger is dangerous, I get that. But Jon is about to march outnumbered 2:1 into the army that just annihilated Stannis without breaking a sweat to try and save you and even if you don't care about Jon's life, once he dies you're back to being raped. At least bring up the fact that you have an insta-win army in your back pocket, even if you need to add that Littlefinger can't be trusted. Hell, maybe Jon and Davos could leverage the fact that they have the army of the Vale to get some of the big houses to turn, winning the north without even needing to directly use the Vale army. Oh so you dont mind that she wants to fight, but that she does not enlist Littlefingers help. Now I get it. I disagree though that she acts like this out of pride. There is barely any pride left in her. She simply does not have a reason to trust Littlefinger or even to believe that he is not allied with Ramsay. He is the one that delivered her to Ramsay and he clearly seemed to work towards an alliance with the Boltons. Of course she should have told John about the position of LF's army though. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 25 2016 04:25 Redox wrote: Oh so you dont mind that she wants to fight, but that she does not enlist Littlefingers help. Now I get it. I disagree though that she acts like this out of pride. There is barely any pride left in her. She simply does not have a reason to trust Littlefinger or even to believe that he is not allied with Ramsay. He is the one that delivered her to Ramsay and he clearly seemed to work towards an alliance with the Boltons. Of course she should have told John about the position of LF's army though. I felt like she hated littlefinger almost as much as she hates Ramsay. She realises that if she tells them about his army they'll probably end up joining with it unless she explains exactly how much Ramsay and Littlefinger fucked her over. And, as well as probably not wanting to share all that trauma with the room, having Jon go on a revenge quest against both Ramsay and Littlefinger would just make things exponentially worse compared to her saying nothing. | ||
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KwarK
United States41987 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On May 25 2016 09:17 KwarK wrote: I suspect she does hate littlefinger but when one of your enemies shows up and offers to defeat another of your enemies, thus saving you, your brother and all the refugees he's trying to protect, well, that's a win. She's also probably realised just how manipulative and dangerous Littlefinger is. She was following him around for a season or two before he abandoned her. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aXoNQ8P.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I1pUTVA.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/j6z8bHE.jpg) Having said that, Sansa does kind of feel like one of those cersei-esque characters in that whenever she starts to get into a position of power, she starts making really stupid decisions. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22711 Posts
On May 25 2016 09:15 killerdog wrote: I felt like she hated littlefinger almost as much as she hates Ramsay. She realises that if she tells them about his army they'll probably end up joining with it unless she explains exactly how much Ramsay and Littlefinger fucked her over. And, as well as probably not wanting to share all that trauma with the room, having Jon go on a revenge quest against both Ramsay and Littlefinger would just make things exponentially worse compared to her saying nothing. That sounds about right for why she wouldn't tell them. Tack onto that it could cause division if Jon wants to take vengeance out on LF but everyone else wants his help, there's some fair precedent that Jon shouldn't disagree with the guys around him on stuff like this too... | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
-The actor that the CotF turned into the first White Walker is same actor as the Night King -The spiral rocks on Bran's tree, that pattern was also shown in S3 but not with rocks, with spiral pattern of mutilated bodies. Also just wondering, what's the Night King plan on how to cross the wall o_O | ||
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RCMDVA
United States708 Posts
Shatter it. Or maybe the pale spiders "as big as hounds", from Bran's nanny's story. | ||
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
On May 25 2016 09:17 KwarK wrote: I suspect she does hate littlefinger but when one of your enemies shows up and offers to defeat another of your enemies, thus saving you, your brother and all the refugees he's trying to protect, well, that's a win. Yeah, when your enemies show up and offer help in the world of GoT, you should always take it because you can totally trust them. Just make sure to have them pinky promise on it and nothing can happen. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On May 25 2016 13:59 RCMDVA wrote: Touch the cold-rolled steel gate. Shatter it. Or maybe the pale spiders "as big as hounds", from Bran's nanny's story. would love to see those things lol. Well Nights watch could just block the tunnel with rocks and random heavy stuff tho | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19343 Posts
On May 25 2016 15:52 Itsmedudeman wrote: Are you guys forgetting the wildlings don't have a place to settle? You think one of the northern houses are just gonna be okay with that? They have every reason to fight as Jon or Sansa if not more. Also, she didn't take the offer from littlefinger, she used the information he gave her which as of now puts her at 0 risk. If Brienne shows up and what Littlefinger said is true, then great, she can use Blackfish's army which we all know Blackfish is probably the most trustworthy ally she has left, or he isn't there and they're back to where they started without LF's help anyway. The Wall has a LOT of castles | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
I always wondered how many people those castles can actually hold. I know castle black is not the biggest castle, they mention that somewhwere in season 1 or something I don't remember. Castle Black looks so small haha, barely enough for those 100 guys of the watch. How are they going to fit thousands of Wildlings and feed them properly without taking some of the northern lands. Jon really didn't think this through very well  | ||
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