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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 04 2016 00:56 Odoakar wrote:
Has Davos seen Berric Dondarrion or ever heard about him?
I'm having difficulty grasping Davos characterization in the show. It's been pretty well established that he despises Melissandre, what with seeing her birth shadow demons and being responsible for Shireen being burned alive. And now he is suddenly all compasionate towards Melissandre, giving her pep talks and asking for help. Even suggesting ressurection, when there's nothing to hint such things are even possible if he isn't aware of Red Priest doing his work on Berric.
I kinda feel they completely butchered his character in last 2 episodes.
Shireen's being burned alive was only cause Stannis agreed, he could've decline. Davos was always a voice of logic for Stannis, sadly it wasn't enough. Davos saw her powers at least few times, and I think he realises that Melisandre truly belives in what she does, nonetheless she also can make major mistakes. While her intentions might be considered in many different ways, she has potential, she can help, u can't let such character move to someone/something else, that could be dangerous at least.
There is a feeling that Melisandre respects Davos in the same way Davos respects her, they were on the same "ship" almost all the time.
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I'd expected there to be a sacrifice, for example her having to give up her chain / lose her illusion. This seems like an easy way.
Still putting my money on Dany and Jon being Fire and Ice.
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On May 04 2016 00:56 Odoakar wrote:
Has Davos seen Berric Dondarrion or ever heard about him?
I'm having difficulty grasping Davos characterization in the show. It's been pretty well established that he despises Melissandre, what with seeing her birth shadow demons and being responsible for Shireen being burned alive. And now he is suddenly all compasionate towards Melissandre, giving her pep talks and asking for help. Even suggesting ressurection, when there's nothing to hint such things are even possible if he isn't aware of Red Priest doing his work on Berric.
I kinda feel they completely butchered his character in last 2 episodes.
He doesn't know about Shireen.
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On May 04 2016 01:35 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 00:56 Odoakar wrote:
Has Davos seen Berric Dondarrion or ever heard about him?
I'm having difficulty grasping Davos characterization in the show. It's been pretty well established that he despises Melissandre, what with seeing her birth shadow demons and being responsible for Shireen being burned alive. And now he is suddenly all compasionate towards Melissandre, giving her pep talks and asking for help. Even suggesting ressurection, when there's nothing to hint such things are even possible if he isn't aware of Red Priest doing his work on Berric.
I kinda feel they completely butchered his character in last 2 episodes. He doesn't know about Shireen.
Seeing as half Stannis' army deserted, and Melissandre returned all alone, he presumably knew something happened, and he is not incapable of talking to people and figuring out wtf happened...
Although I do agree that his lack of a reaction to Melissandre burning Shireen is pretty shoddy writing. The script could really use some slowing down, and focusing on more believable character interactions (or just cut all of Dorne and use that time for this, instead of bad pussy babble and atrocious assassination scenes).
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On May 04 2016 01:49 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 01:35 Mercy13 wrote:On May 04 2016 00:56 Odoakar wrote:
Has Davos seen Berric Dondarrion or ever heard about him?
I'm having difficulty grasping Davos characterization in the show. It's been pretty well established that he despises Melissandre, what with seeing her birth shadow demons and being responsible for Shireen being burned alive. And now he is suddenly all compasionate towards Melissandre, giving her pep talks and asking for help. Even suggesting ressurection, when there's nothing to hint such things are even possible if he isn't aware of Red Priest doing his work on Berric.
I kinda feel they completely butchered his character in last 2 episodes. He doesn't know about Shireen. Seeing as half Stannis' army deserted, and Melissandre returned all alone, he presumably knew something happened, and he is not incapable of talking to people and figuring out wtf happened... Although I do agree that his lack of a reaction to Melissandre burning Shireen is pretty shoddy writing. The script could really use some slowing down, and focusing on more believable character interactions (or just cut all of Dorne and use that time for this, instead of bad pussy babble and atrocious assassination scenes).
Eh I think it's plausible that news hasn't got back to the wall regarding Shireen, and maybe not even about Stannis's defeat.
There's no way Davos finds out that Mel had Shireen burned, and doesn't flip out and try to kill her again.
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As we are apparently cleaning up with of speed of about 3 character deaths per episode, I think there's a chance Melisandre might just feel so hopeless she will kill herself before she gets to know about Jon.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On May 04 2016 00:46 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 00:37 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
basicly every spell she uses is a bloodmagic, and it needs to be feed by something/someone (better if it will be kings blood) She didn't need anyone's blood to survive the poisoning, altough I can't prove she used magic for that
Nor did she use any blood for the shadow demon. King's sperm, maybe, but no blood.
I agree with the inconsistency about Davos. None of his actions in S6 make any sense, and it looks entirely done to drive the plot forward more rapidly. Him being nice to Melisandre is completely off, him suggesting necromancy is absurd, and to top it all he has no reason to particularly care about Jon anyway.
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On May 03 2016 21:10 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2016 21:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On May 03 2016 20:51 Velr wrote:
What? How is it hard to explain.
Melisandre did Magic.
Everything else, because there is 0 evidence for anything else, is just pointless speculation for speculations sake. Dunno, maybe am looking for something that does not even exist and everything has more simplier explanation. I was kind of thinking along those lines, but I think in the end it's just sub par execution by the film makers. I felt the resurrection was super forced, lacked any intensity, so I was thinking it was not really her that brought Jon back. But I worry it really is as simple as that, even though the show leaves enough ambiguity to wonder what really happened.
On May 04 2016 00:56 Odoakar wrote:
Has Davos seen Berric Dondarrion or ever heard about him?
I'm having difficulty grasping Davos characterization in the show. It's been pretty well established that he despises Melissandre, what with seeing her birth shadow demons and being responsible for Shireen being burned alive. And now he is suddenly all compasionate towards Melissandre, giving her pep talks and asking for help. Even suggesting ressurection, when there's nothing to hint such things are even possible if he isn't aware of Red Priest doing his work on Berric.
I kinda feel they completely butchered his character in last 2 episodes.
Ya, this part really stuck out to me. Not only did Davos have no idea about Thoros rezzing Berric, Melissandre never saw it either! She just came across the party when she wanted to buy Gendry for King's blood and somehow could tell that Berric was raised from the dead.
I guess that gives more credence to the view that resurrection was something the Red Priests are familiar since she knew without actually witnessing the act.
Speaking of Melissandra, her visions that shook her faith were:
1) She has seen herself walking Winterfell's battlements (she took this to mean Stannis was going to win)
2) She has seen Jon Snow fighting before Winterfell (so he shouldn't be dead)
So going to fight at Winterfell with Stannis but without Jon doesn't make much sense.
Did she assume Stannis was going to win, then Jon attack them?
That doesn't make sense either because she regarded him as an ally (or did she? is that why she tried to seduce him?).
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I think Davos knew how fucked they are all without some sort of leadership or captain to follow. The entire show is sort of about what happens when leadership breaks down and everyone fights for themselves. He isn't a leader and they need someone like Jon desperately. He seemed aware that bringing someone back to life might be something Melisandre could do. It is not totally unreasonable for him to think magic could bring someone back.
Its not a perfect scene, but I didn't see it as totally out of character for him.
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who's "they" for Davos? I mean he's not part of the Watch so it's not really his problem
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On May 04 2016 07:01 Sent. wrote:
who's "they" for Davos? I mean he's not part of the Watch so it's not really his problem
The night watch, wildlings. Everyone currently looking for direction. The entire social order that they exist under is crumbling. He isn't a guy who leads, but he seems to have enough perspective to know that he can't just go home and make a new life.
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On May 04 2016 07:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:01 Sent. wrote:
who's "they" for Davos? I mean he's not part of the Watch so it's not really his problem The night watch, wildlings. Everyone currently looking for direction. The entire social order that they exist under is crumbling. He isn't a guy who leads, but he seems to have enough perspective to know that he can't just go home and make a new life.
They are everybody of the known world, remember that he goes beyond the wall alongside Stannis because the real battle will be there.
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I have no problem with how Davos acted, it's not out of character. It's a desperate situation. Stannis is dead and there's nowhere to go and noone to follow. The wildlings are sorely needed against the White Walkers, but without Jon, the alliance will likely break. In these dire circumstances, I don't think it's unreasonable for Davos to reconsider his opinion about Melisandre's blood magic. He may not like it, but he has seen that it can work, and the survival of all Westeros may depend on it.
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On May 04 2016 07:08 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:03 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2016 07:01 Sent. wrote:
who's "they" for Davos? I mean he's not part of the Watch so it's not really his problem The night watch, wildlings. Everyone currently looking for direction. The entire social order that they exist under is crumbling. He isn't a guy who leads, but he seems to have enough perspective to know that he can't just go home and make a new life. They are everybody of the known world, remember that he goes beyond the wall alongside Stannis because the real battle will be there.
Even with out that, I doubt Davos believe he can get pasts the Boltons. It is either Jon Snow convincing the night watch and wildlings to ride south or nothing.
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Zurich15365 Posts
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it.
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On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it.
Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods.
I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. Davos just can't "go home". The fucking White Walkers are coming and the entire Kingdom is on the break of war. He isn't going to have a home to back to...
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On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods. I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down.
The hate is because there's simply no justification for Davos to believe the dead can come back to life. He's witnessed her power, he might even need it to fend off the Night's Watch, but from there it's a huge leap to asking her to bring Jon back to life.
Davos has literally never seen it happen, and beyond that he's never even heard of it happening (in universe it's only been Thoros reviving Beric and possibly Khal Drogo, although he might not have actually been dead).
No one believed the White Walkers were real either despite written history about them. So why would anyone believe that the dead can come back to life when in-universe it's never happened before?
Heck even Melissandre didn't believe it was possible until meeting Beric.
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On May 04 2016 07:39 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods. I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. The hate is because there's simply no justification for Davos to believe the dead can come back to life. He's witnessed her power, he might even need it to fend off the Night's Watch, but from there it's a huge leap to asking her to bring Jon back to life. Davos has literally never seen it happen, and beyond that he's never even heard of it happening (in universe it's only been Thoros reviving Beric and possibly Khal Drogo, although he might not have actually been dead). No one believed the White Walkers were real either despite written history about them. So why would anyone believe that the dead can come back to life when in-universe it's never happened before? Heck even Melissandre didn't believe it was possible until meeting Beric.
Not a huge jump from resurrection to magical shadows assassins coming out of her vagina. Couldn't hurt to at least ask her to see if it was possible. She can obviously do things he has never seen before and has power over magic. He's heard enough stuff while at the Wall and through Melisandre that they are real and they are coming very soon. Again, don't understand the hate. It's all justifiable so far to me.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On May 04 2016 07:37 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 07:26 zatic wrote:
See, that is all speculation we can come up with to justify Davos' actions, but there is simply nothing in the show that shows us these changes.
The most natural thing for Davos pre S6 to do would be to go home. Everything he believed in and everyone he related to in the North is gone.
I mean watch S3 and S6 interactions between Davos and Melisandre side by side. It's a complete 180, and the show gives us no reason for it. Character development over 3 seasons is enough reason. He knew they were fucked to all hell and they needed a leader, desperate times call for desperate measures. He put his differences aside and asked Melisandre for help as much as he doesn't like her or her methods.I don't see where all this hate is coming from for Davos' actions. Show laid it out pretty well how everything was going down. Davos just can't "go home". The fucking White Walkers are coming and the entire Kingdom is on the break of war. He isn't going to have a home to back to...
"Differences" is putting it mildly. We are talking about a guy who hates Melisandre so deeply that he was ready to sacrifice his own life if only he could take her with him.
The two people in the show he cares most about are Stannis and especially Shireen. The person he hates more than anyone in the world comes back with the news that both are dead. Even without knowing the horrifying details that should make him distrust Melisandre more (if that was possible), not lead him to a complete 180.
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